I don't much about the Beasts of War guys, but this is an interesting read:
http://www.beastsofwar.com/games-workshop/announcement/ (http://www.beastsofwar.com/games-workshop/announcement/)
Basically GW are trying to stop them from reviewing any GW products, discussing any new GW releases, or even featuring any pictures of GW models on their site. I'm not convinced how much of GW's bullying would ever stand up in court if someone had the time and money to throw at it.
:-\
This all started because BoW published new models on their site before GW had officially released it, they also used GW's logo without permission...I think they got 3 cease and desist letters before GW wanted to go further
To be honest ...I think they only have themselves to blame..I am sure Apple, Coca Cola or any other big international company that dominates in their chosen field would do the same
Do GW actually want people to buy their stuff or do they just want to p*ss the wargaming community off with their, frankly, obnoxious approach to business? A business in the leisure industry, where people are wanting to relax, enjoy themselves and not hear about all this corporate nonsense.
I stopped buying GW stuff several years ago because it was a) very expensive for what it was, b) the attitude of their store staff was often either condescending or otherwise obnoxious, c) the constant revamping of rules to "force" people to spend even more money on their overpriced products and d) their bully-boy attitude to the rest of the industry.
A good company that has lost it's way IMHO.
I dont think GW actually think of themselves of belonging to the wargaming community...I think they consider themselves part of the GW community
Quote from: Fenton on 06 October 2013, 08:26:54 PM
I dont think GW actually think of themselves of belonging to the wargaming community...I think they consider themselves part of the GW community
After all, they are the HOBBY!
=) =) =) =) (:| (:|
I heard a rumour about GW stores stopping having game or painting tables, only a place where to sell stuff...
DO NOT get me started!!!!
Would it be breaching their rights under the Copyright, Designs and Patent Act 1988, specifically Sections 16 and 20 to announce that Games Workshop intend to release a new range of Barbies?
Well first of all GW thinks it IS the hobby. (LOL 1).
And yes gaming tables are rare these days. More like a come in give us your money, leave fast. (LOL 2)
But I am also looking at how sheepishly the majority of gamers does whatever GW says and pays outrageous prices.
So stores are costing them so much money that they have to raise prices? Any store that does not make profits is closed so LOL 3.
LOL 4 for the argument of inflation and LOL 5 that they are actually successful. Raising prices by 15 % and raising earnings by 1 % means you are loosing sales, full stop.
Did I mention I nowadays buy my hobby items from Pendraken? Miniatures also come from a few other suppliers but none of them is named GW, Citadel or Forgeworld.
Their stupid release policy (no word untill we say so) is unrealistic and a total slap in the face of a gamer. How can you justify a gamer starting an army and within weeks his Codex is outdated and his minis basically worthless? (Necron Pariahs anyone?) The "gamers spend what they have on what is there" approach is true but GW did not anticipate "what is there" includes other manufacturers. I mean those with a bit more appreciation of their community. Did I mention Fore.- and after- sales service?
Lastly it is beyond me why anyone would want to play the standard GW powergamer that gets a nervous breakdown if you actually have some units left after their initial turn. Been there, seen it, rejecting it.
So my gaming budget is indeed spent like GW says, unfortunately for them entirely NOT on THEIR merchandise. After all it is the VENDOR that needs to convince the BUYER. Not the vendor allowing the buyer to have some candy.
Quote from: Leon on 06 October 2013, 06:53:21 PM
I don't much about the Beasts of War guys, but this is an interesting read:
http://www.beastsofwar.com/games-workshop/announcement/ (http://www.beastsofwar.com/games-workshop/announcement/)
Basically GW are trying to stop them from reviewing any GW products, discussing any new GW releases, or even featuring any pictures of GW models on their site. I'm not convinced how much of GW's bullying would ever stand up in court if someone had the time and money to throw at it.
:-\
I think that's the point with them picking on people who aren't going to be able to afford to fight them legally, they must think it sends out a message to others about crossing them etc.
It's a real shame that GW are now just a parody of what they once were, they well and truly sold out now that the money keeps rolling in....
And when someone stands up to face them in court (CHS) they look pretty bad.
When that author in the US finally got help from the authors' guild (or so) they were made aware that "Space Marine" IS a generic term and IF it can be copyrighted then only by the owner of its 1932 appearance and not by them. As a result GW could not sell "Space Marines" in the US. I might be mistaken but if that ever happens GW can basically dissolve.
Last time you seen so many people celebrating in the streets was the end of WWII....
The only satisfaction I have from all of the above is that GW's sales model will ultimately fail. They burn customer after customer meaning they have to find new ones. Whilst there will always be a procession of spotty teenage boys hankering after their latest releases, their number of long term customers will fall.
I used to be a GW fan...then became a customer...then purchased a few supplies etc...and now the only thing I buy from them are washes (I just like them). Repeat this several thousand times and the end result is obvious.
Bad business sense: don't annoy your customers.
Quote from: get2grips on 07 October 2013, 02:03:12 PM
They burn customer after customer meaning they have to find new ones.
But that IS there plan as far as I can see, its why they keep releasing starter sets and new codexes and models
They have shareholders to take care of etc...they are there to make money not to pander to wargaming in general...Same as Battlefront and Flames of War
QuoteBut that IS there plan as far as I can see, its why they keep releasing starter sets and new codexes and models
They have shareholders to take care of etc...they are there to make money not to pander to wargaming in general...Same as Battlefront and Flames of War
Correct. You can not label GW as being part of the 'Wargaming community'. They are not looking at keeping customers for long hence the rehashing codex's/armies regularly. You need to look at them in them in the context of a cross between a toy manufacturer and a video games manufacturer. In this context they are reasonably priced, I have 3 kids and the costs of toys is frankly horrendous - last xmas was a £100 barbie house, which mostly stands idle, amongst other things. At least GW products have some repeat appeal.
WH40K boxed set £61.50 - 48 minis plus rule set - hours of fun assembling, painting and gaming.
Grand theft auto V - £41.99 - learn to nick cars shot people and treat women badly - completed in a couple of weeks and discarded.
When my son is a bit older I know which I'll be buying.
And he will most certainly tell you he "got bored of it" and go back to TV or computer games. As a caring parent you will attempt it again until you realise it is not much use. I read that after every christmas on ebay.
The attention span of their average customer is simply too short to have any impact on wargaming.
Let me iterate again: GW come, give them the money, leave fast. Bitch about prices et al and keep shoving money at them. OR
Pendraken where you pester Leon with millions of questions, buy twice as much as you planned and your spouse reluctantly agreed upon, be happy. Get a laugh on the forum (as opposed to a C&D from GW).
Wargaming and "the hobby" is entirely what you make of it.
People wrongly do not distinguish between the two anymore and ignoring GW and their "products" has actually increased my fun manyfold, maybe you (and your son) can try as well. Nothing better than a hobby that teaches you so many things... (history, art, craft skills...)
QuoteAnd he will most certainly tell you he "got bored of it" and go back to TV or computer games. As a caring parent you will attempt it again until you realise it is not much use. I read that after every christmas on ebay.
The attention span of their average customer is simply too short to have any impact on wargaming.
You are missing the point. It isn't about wargaming its about giving my kids something they may find interesting. If they do great if they don't fine its exactly the same as action man, Barbie, playstation games. They will move on. GW know this and know they have to refresh their product constantly. They don't give a sh*t about Pendraken or any other wargame model manufacturer. They aren't competing with them or in the same market they are more concerned with little johnnys mother spending money on space marines rather than the next Gears of War game, 1809 Bavarians ain't on the radar.
I buy Pendraken not GW because I'm more into historicals. But when my son's older if he may want space marines, I'll buy some and paint them. If he's stays interested I'll see if he wants onto historicals.
I am inclined to say you are missing the point where you cannot spend money on GW Space Marines AND the Barbie doll. You can only buy one. So GW IS competing for your money with a lot of other sellers in and outside wargaming. New tyres or a box of Marines?
The problem for GW -and they actually admit it- is that the Videogame of Space Marine is offering what people nowadays call "instant gratification" whereas the box of ten Marines needs to be built and painted.
"Work" or instant "fun" what do you think an undeveloped mind will chose. The figures on this matter speak for themselves.
I totally agree with you that the box of Marines is the better choice from the parental point of view. (In lieu of Pendraken figures which would be even better). My little one (female, 7) was totally in love with GW 40K Eldar and I had to buy her Guardians and a Jetbike dude. She now prefers building a castle and playing with Knight's. She totally loves her D&D Half Elf and Bowman I painted for her. "Moving on" is an issue for the hobby as such. Every youngster that leaves gaming for another hobby reduces the number of players.
I am not sure about you and others and yes some people should not have the same hobby as we do but without "fresh blood" our hobby will eventually die. This cannot be what we want, right? And the "come in, don't even dare to think other than we tell you, spend your money and then leave fast" approach is in my eyes ill advised for increasing the playerbase.
Don't care. i have purchased GW stuff for my son and he then moved on to Urban War and then Warmachine. He has never really been into historical gaming. I have never ever purchased any GW stuff for myself (Except Historical rules and lists) and probably never will. So they can charge what they want. If people continue to buy from them then. . . . Enjoy!
I just don't care !
;)
Quote from: Fenton on 06 October 2013, 08:26:54 PM
I dont think GW actually think of themselves of belonging to the wargaming community...I think they consider themselves part of the GW community
Quite right in my opinion. When I worked there many, many years ago we had to tell people it was a hobby not a game.
Quote from: howayman on 07 October 2013, 07:15:42 PM
Don't care. i have purchased GW stuff for my son and he then moved on to Urban War and then Warmachine. He has never really been into historical gaming. I have never ever purchased any GW stuff for myself (Except Historical rules and lists) and probably never will. So they can charge what they want. If people continue to buy from them then. . . . Enjoy!
I just don't care !
;)
Buying GW stuff is not wrong per se. (Okay let's say it is debatable - lol)
Their approach to business simply disgusts some people.
But complaining endlessly and still buying their stuff is somewhat pointless.
Me and my son play older editions of both WFB, and 40k, but we never buy directly from GW, its always by trading and buying 2nd hand or such like. That way we don't get all the faff of the "keeping up with the jones-syndrome, which is their hook, and this way we aint putting money into GWs pockets (since they have already been paid for and flogged on dirt cheap ;))
Also in the age of the web, we can get access to much better proxy figures from other manufacturers, and get a better bargain too.
Even so my kids want to go to their store (which is where they'll get reeled in) I've banned them to be honest. Hopefully I've learned them enough about other wargaming and miniatures options out there, to make more informed judgements about flushing their spends on finecrap and overpriced modelling materials in favour of getting a lot more from the hobby.
I think as a parent, the strategy of GW now is it lures kids in, and to feed their fix for new stuff they know parents are going to end up paying out for.
My son likes playing WFB, but is just as happy playing even historical games as well, so at least he knows that lots of other stuff is available outside of that.
I can understand GW protecting their logo's and trademarks, that bit's fine. But to try and stop a third party website from showing pictures of models which they have painted themselves is ridiculous. How is that any different from someone with a blog building the latest batch of 'Space Marines (TM)' and posting a review with some pics? Or simply showing off their models, which they've spent money and time assembling. I can't see how any court in the world would uphold something like that.
They might as well put a poster in every GW shop saying 'Spend your money, buy our stuff, but show it off online, and you'll be hearing from our lawyers.'
I have fought GW twice in the past... and won.
Their bullying tactics crumble when stood up against, because (despite their team of amazingly competent lawyers) a lot of the time they hope (and succeed) their scare tactics will make them get their own way. They back down when they aren`t sure they can win; and to be honest, its not worth it to them to pursue the small fry. But I reiterate, most people crumble when presented with a legal document and comply to their wishes.
... this I will NEVER do, as I never step outside the law against them.
Yes, I am disgusted by GW, sorry.
Six :)
Quote from: Leon on 08 October 2013, 03:25:42 AM
I can understand GW protecting their logo's and trademarks, that bit's fine. But to try and stop a third party website from showing pictures of models which they have painted themselves is ridiculous. How is that any different from someone with a blog building the latest batch of 'Space Marines (TM)' and posting a review with some pics? Or simply showing off their models, which they've spent money and time assembling. I can't see how any court in the world would uphold something like that.
They might as well put a poster in every GW shop saying 'Spend your money, buy our stuff, but show it off online, and you'll be hearing from our lawyers.'
I think it is only because they did it before the models were actually officially released
But how can you expect in the age of the internet to keep back information?
GW will not be able to surpress what is in development. They can only shorten the notification to (currently) about a month.
And there is my problem with it. I DO spend my budget on minis (if I have one) but if they do not tell me when my army gets a new release (a one year overview would be enough for most people)
then I will spend my money where my business is valued. Contrary to GWs belief there is competition for my money and, sorry, they fail. Now the fanboys will argue my money is not important to them but more and more people think the same.
Is it also not important when a whole club declares the local GW pushers as persona non grata? I know a few places where local gamers told GW to shove it. Preferably sideways. I know of annually more than 30K in wargaming budgets being allocated to other companies..... put it ona global scale and my "15 % price rise =/= 1 % rise in turnover" starts to make sense.
You know, all this method of distancing themselves from everything else wargames related is probably just so that the GW fanboys don't accidentally get to see other firms stuff!
I expect they'd rather control every aspect of the whole "hobby" experience by putting blinkers on them as much as possible.
Myself, I don't give a flying crap about anything they make or bring out these days, but it does pee me off when I regularly hear about GW throwing their weight around, they just make me want to rant on like a militant anti-GW-ite (or whatever) and makes me hate what they are a little more each time.
For a gaming company, GW are really bad killjoys!
sooooo,
I wonder who's brave enough now to tell anyone here they`ve just gone and bought a brand new GW army for their games ;)
hehe
okay, that was low of me :d
I've just bought a new GW army ....
Well new to me ...
From EBay ....
For considerably less than GW wanted for it new ....
Before they canned the range ...
And system .....
I like my new Warmaster Undead though :-)
*points at Ithoriel in horror... teeth pulled back in sheer revulsion and terror at the beast before him*
Actually, I have a ton of WG stuff... mostly from the late 80`s and early 90`s. And I bought Battle Of Five Armies, Space Hulk and several bits and bobs for Warmaster (which I never play) I`d even buy their Purity Seal, except they refuse to ship to Ireland.
Brave man Ithoriel ;) :D 8)
Six :o
Quote from: Ithoriel on 08 October 2013, 03:39:18 PM
I've just bought a new GW army ....
Well new to me ...
From EBay ....
For considerably less than GW wanted for it new ....
Before they canned the range ...
And system .....
I like my new Warmaster Undead though :-)
Me too, except it was empire and probably at half the price for vaguely equivalent models from Pendraken , which is probaly a quarter of the GW price, if you could still buy the stuff from them
Aaaargh! They're killing children!
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8002/7243577534_e471d80652_b.jpg)
Giant body, tiny head. It's ... Thrud the Barbarian!!
It could get em closed down - se**al offences against minors.
IanS
Quote from: Ithoriel on 10 October 2013, 10:34:06 AM
Giant body, tiny head. It's ... Thrud the Barbarian!!
;D ;D ;D
Never read through the whole topic but I just want to add my views on the matter...
This is exactly the reason I've moved away from GW and into other (10mm) gaming.
First they got rid of the specialists games like blood bowl, warmaster etc, which to me, kept the spirit of a community alive.
The last couple of times I entered their shop up here in Aberdeen I was shocked by the people there. I asked them if they did any other type of gaming and stared me out with a disgusted look. In their eyes, GW is the be all and end all.
Also how they are having a go at all the smaller businesses which use their products upsets my happiness. Surely they would want them on board to help further sales of GW things? Selfish.
Nothing will take away the fantastic models they produce and also the ones I have in my cupboard but the way GW as a company have been acting recently has really put me off playing at their events or even buying their products.
Rant over :-)
That pic of the guy in the space marine outfit is odd...
The one at the back looks decidedly like Earthworm Jim!
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-bPS2leOiAq8/TsPg7Af3mSI/AAAAAAAACSQ/2sY6A33HyTQ/earthworm-jim-earthworm-jim-877244_226_460.jpg)
No, Jim's head is too big!
The guy at the back...could they find anyone with more of a pinhead than that??? :D
It does look wrong, doesn't it ? ;D ;D
Cheers - Phil
What scale is he?
And what about the backpack floating away on its own?
I wondered about the floaty backpack too ;D
It also occurs that his pistol is not in scale ;D
Not with his head ;D ;D ;D
=O
Actually, is that little guy 10mm?
Quote from: WeeWars on 15 October 2013, 10:56:13 AM
Actually, is that little guy 10mm?
10mm head, 28mm body...actually, that is a beautiful metaphor for Games Workshop :D
Quote from: get2grips on 15 October 2013, 10:59:32 AM
10mm head, 28mm body...actually, that is a beautiful metaphor for Games Workshop :D
The little guy getting a head swap. Is he 10mm?
He stands for the rest of the wargaming industry, living with gw's rusty chainsword at their necks.