Straight up- this is a touchy subject. I think (hope) Sebigboss will take it in the spirit in which it is meant, which is in friendship.
80 years ago your country had a period of, shall we say, collective lunacy. There is now a whole hobby dedicated to making entertainment out of the consequences, and discussion about the technical points. Does this ever feel a bit weird?
Hang on a minute LH. Your from Great Brittain.
Applying your logic this country has spent the best part of the last 1000 years in a period of "collective lunacy" where we invaded civilised 2 thirds of the world. According to the article below we have civilised invaded all but 22 of the worlds 200 countries. :)
We game most of them, so does that feel weird to you?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/history/9653497/British-have-invaded-nine-out-of-ten-countries-so-look-out-Luxembourg.html
Yes, but were Right. The Daily Mail told me so.
Seriously- I know all European countries aren't exactly whiter than white, but Germany is held up as the 'big evil'. It must be freaky to have to deal with such history, especially if not even your parents can be held accountable.
But is that because we read British history books?
I wonder how other nation's histories record our treatment of them.
Quote from: capthugeca on 03 October 2013, 05:28:45 AM
But is that because we read British history books?
I wonder how other nation's histories record our treatment of them.
Probably. We have quietly forgotten about:-
Who invented the concentration camp, and the thousands of Boer Women and Children who died in them
The attrocities commited by Allied troops in WW2 not just on the eastern front.
The thousands of people who dies from western deseases - sometimes used as a weapon
The thousands of chinese who dies from Opium supplied by the worlds biggest ever drugs supplier.
The dubious sinking of the French Fleet at Oran.
Not to mention the dubious wars we engineered like the Zulu war, the Sikh wars
And although there were no casualties the invasion of Neutral Iceland in 1940.
I suspect I have only scratched the surface, but I think we are a long way from being whiter than white
Firstly, if there are only 22 countries we haven't invaded, let's crack on and get the full set. :P
It has oft been said that the British invented the concentration camp. Yes we did as a way of scooping up the local who supported the Boers and hence drying the sea that those particular fish swam in. Death that occured in them were, I would suggest, caused by incompetence and neglect rather than as a deliberate policy of extermination. The same tactic of shepherding the local populace has been used more successfully since then.
I think the sinking of the French fleet is only dubious with the benefit of hindsight. France had fallen (again) and they had a very powerful navy that could have been used to cover an invasion, attack shipping or just tie down British resources, and the French refused to put those ships out of the reach of the Germans. French ships in Britain refused to come under the control of the RN, and what should not be forgotten is that the overwhelming number of French soldiers saved on the Dunkirk beaches opted to return to France rather than to continue to fight.
Again, invading Iceland was to get a base for aircraft to support trans Atlantic shipping from the attacks of the U-boats.
We are a long way from being whiter than white, but I do think we need to put ourselves into the position of the decision makers at the time. We know that Germany would surrender in 1945. In 1940, the outcome was not so clear.
Similarly, opium was seen as a good thing in Victorian times, with laudenum being regularly used to stop women from getting hysterical. As fro the Chinese, well they needed to be brought the benefits of Christianity and trade with Britian, because that would be good for them whether they liked it or not. A different world view, which we have decided is repugnant now.
I would contrast this with the Nazis who deliberately set out on a path of extermination of Jews, gypsies, gays and the disabled. We're not whiter than white, but we're not blacker than black.
Hi
I won't say too much but the British, and especially Harold Macmillan, are reviled amongst Cossack circles for the forced repatriations of tens of thousands of Cossacks to almost certain death after the war. You might want to have a look at:-
http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/19th-september-1981/10/macmillan-and-the-cossacks (http://archive.spectator.co.uk/article/19th-september-1981/10/macmillan-and-the-cossacks)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repatriation_of_Cossacks_after_World_War_II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Repatriation_of_Cossacks_after_World_War_II)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victims_of_Yalta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Victims_of_Yalta)
GrumpyOldMan
So opium was sold to the Chinese just as a medicine? I live and learn. But not always what people think they're teaching.
Well the Chinese had always regarded Opium as dangerous. I think it was the Europeans that introduced the practice of mixing it with tobacco for smoking
In the late 18th century the Chinese Emperor decreed
Opium has a harm. Opium is a poison, undermining our good customs and morality. Its use is prohibited by law. Now the commoner, Yang, dares to bring it into the Forbidden City. Indeed, he flouts the law! However, recently the purchasers, eaters, and consumers of opium have become numerous. Deceitful merchants buy and sell it to gain profit. The customs house at the Ch'ung-wen Gate was originally set up to supervise the collection of imports (it had no responsibility with regard to opium smuggling). If we confine our search for opium to the seaports, we fear the search will not be sufficiently thorough. We should also order the general commandant of the police and police- censors at the five gates to prohibit opium and to search for it at all gates. If they capture any violators, they should immediately punish them and should destroy the opium at once. As to Kwangtung and Fukien, the provinces from which opium comes, we order their viceroys, governors, and superintendents of the maritime customs to conduct a thorough search for opium, and cut off its supply. They should in no ways consider this order a dead letter and allow opium to be smuggled out
In 1839 the Chinese government wrote to Queen Victoria
"Your Majesty has not before been thus officially notified, and you may plead ignorance of the severity of our laws, but I now give my assurance that we mean to cut this harmful drug forever."
I dont think you bombard Chinese Cities over a medicine either
I think I may be being misinterpreted. I neevr said that Britain sold opium to the Chinese as a medicine. I am batting from the back foot as Victoria's wars are not my period, and the history of drugs usage is not my interest. What I was trying to say is that the British Empire saw opium as a commodity. It was in common usage in Britain, and Britain was being it's usual ruthless bastard self in its dealing with China. British interests were identified and defended with force.
I am not saying that this was anything other than ruthless, and Britain demonstrated a complete disregard of the interests of "Johnny Foreigner" at every opportunity.
One could draw parallels with current Chinese activities in Africa.
However, I maintain that the activities of the Nazis towards their own and other peoples took darkness to a new dimension. This, I think was the thrust of the original question.
Quote from: fsn on 03 October 2013, 06:25:07 AM
Firstly, if there are only 22 countries we haven't invaded, let's crack on and get the full set. :P
It has oft been said that the British invented the concentration camp. Yes we did as a way of scooping up the local who supported the Boers and hence drying the sea that those particular fish swam in. Death that occured in them were, I would suggest, caused by incompetence and neglect rather than as a deliberate policy of extermination. The same tactic of shepherding the local populace has been used more successfully since then.
I think the sinking of the French fleet is only dubious with the benefit of hindsight. France had fallen (again) and they had a very powerful navy that could have been used to cover an invasion, attack shipping or just tie down British resources, and the French refused to put those ships out of the reach of the Germans. French ships in Britain refused to come under the control of the RN, and what should not be forgotten is that the overwhelming number of French soldiers saved on the Dunkirk beaches opted to return to France rather than to continue to fight.
Again, invading Iceland was to get a base for aircraft to support trans Atlantic shipping from the attacks of the U-boats.
We are a long way from being whiter than white, but I do think we need to put ourselves into the position of the decision makers at the time. We know that Germany would surrender in 1945. In 1940, the outcome was not so clear.
Similarly, opium was seen as a good thing in Victorian times, with laudenum being regularly used to stop women from getting hysterical. As fro the Chinese, well they needed to be brought the benefits of Christianity and trade with Britian, because that would be good for them whether they liked it or not. A different world view, which we have decided is repugnant now.
I would contrast this with the Nazis who deliberately set out on a path of extermination of Jews, gypsies, gays and the disabled. We're not whiter than white, but we're not blacker than black.
Gentlemen,
I certainly don't want to be fsn-bashing (from what I understand the poor chap has a hard enough time as it is with a serious lack of Centurions being produced and all that...) but I do believe some of the points brought forward could do with some other points of view...
First of all I think fsn is right in that a lot of historical occurences have to be viewed in the light (or darkness?) of the days in which they happened. Hindsight is a bliss but is called hindsight with a reason... It is to easy for us to judge with our knowledge and experiences. Even so...
- though it is true that a lot of the attrocities that occured in the concentration camps in the Boer war were the result of incompetence and neglect, it is still very hard to swallow that people starve on the one side of a barbed wire fence while those guarding them on the other side are pretty well fed. Barbed wire fences don't block a line of sight but seem to block conscience extremely well as history has shown us...
- the thoughts on French troops escaping from Dunkirk need some more different point of view too I guess; first of all; who do you all think died defending the beachheads when the BEF was evacuated? It certainly weren't those BEF soldiers that managed to escape. It's not that they were escorted to the ships by the Germans under a save passage. Not withstanding the bravery of the BEF soldiers that fought and fell in France, I bet most that died defending the beachheads were actually French... Those French troops that did manage to get aboard were not really given a chance too stay in Britain; they were expected to return to France a.s.a.p. to continue the fight, and so they did. They were reorganized and sent back and many of them died afterwards defending their country. I'm sorry if all this sounds a bit harsh but I feel the respect for the French soldier in WW-2 seems to be 'somewhat' lacking. They did much more than surrender at the first shot!
Being Dutch I really don't want to complain about British, American, Canadian and other troops 'invading' my country in 1944; I'm happy they did! On the other hand I don't blame every individual German soldier who invaded my country in 1940 cause I can understand the mess they were in. That's also were I think I can link up with fsn's last line. The crime's committed by the Nazi's in WW-2 were planned and well thought out (okay; the Opium Wars are somewhat dubious in this context) but overall I do think that's what makes the difference.
So fsn; no hard feelings; I'm right in there with you; just pick some better examples please next time ;)
Cheers,
Rob
I have no problem with spirited debate, but again I feel I am being misunderstood.
My point about the French was that the question of what France was going to do after the fall was uncertain. France could either stay neutral or join the Germans and there was no guarantee of neutrality. The French fleet at Mers-el-Kebir was given the choice to basically mothball itself safely (from a British point of view) in a French port in the West Indies or the USA, sail to a British port or continue the fight.
My point about the French soldiers being repatriated is that there was not (as is popularly assumed now) huge support for de Gaulle and the Free French. This being the case, the French were viewed as potential enemies by the British and the threat of the French fleet neutralised. Vichy activities in Syria and Madagascar and the bombing of Gibraltar show that perhaps this viewpoint was justified. I am not denigrating the French soldier of 1940, I am saying that the political situation in 1940 indicated that France could have become a German ally.
Also, I was very careful to use the word "Nazi" rather than "German". I do not taint the whole of Germany with the same brush, and I think this partly is at the root of the original question.
The examples were not mine. I was merely trying to put them into context against the horror of the Nazis. I would also say that I cann ot think of any country that is free from all charges of barbarism. The Spanish in South America, the US in North America, the Italians in Abyssinia, the Japanese in Korea ...
I think this really is too sensitive a subject for some.
As Henning Wehn clearly states, German history starts in 1947.
There is nothing before that...
http://m.scotsman.com/news/comedy-henning-wehn-shows-how-an-outsider-s-perspective-is-useful-in-joking-about-britain-1-1532775
Don't worry gents,
I really find this sort of debating very interesting and fsn's points and especially his explanations are certainly informative and make it clear he knows what he's talking about; my sincere compliments!
As a Dutch citizen I tend to live in this very strange ethical twillight zone where I am not supposed to point the finger at any German for what his grandparents or parents did during the Second World War but where our sovereign is asked to apologize on behalf of the Dutch State for the slave trade for wel over two centuries ago... I find this somewhat controversial; hence my interest in subjects like this.
On the subject of the repatriated French, purely from a historical point, I think hat after the take over of their country they had more or less the same problem as my ancestors had. The coastline, just as it was in the Netherlands, was completely controlled by the Germans and guarded quite effectively, even more so as the war lasted. Escape from the Mainland was extremely difficult and hazardous and for a lot of people this simply was not an option. I believe that relative few people in all the occupied countries in Europe were actively involved in organised resistance. Life was tough enough as it was and the threat of having your family members being shot for one's actions was quite a deterrent to most I can imagine. Heck, I know that in the Netherlands more people volunteered for the SS as were actively involved in the Resistance. Sad but true... :(
As an active re-enactor in several periods I also have to do with these questions as to what is acceptable and what isn't. There was a lot of discussion when people first suggested German WW-2 re-enactment (I don't re-enact WW-2 Germans by the way) in the Netherlands and the funny thing is that it was all young peple who opposed it. The older people who had lived through the war and that visited the first 'try outs' with WW-2 Germans were actually very glad to see this part of history being portrayed finally.
So please, let's keep this discussion going and exchange our points of view; I for one will never be offended by people with different points of view as long as it's done with respect and arguements; it's the only way to forward mutual understanding and keep us from reliving history in all it's true horrors.
Cheers,
Rob
My question wasn't so much finger-pointing, rather than an interest how blameless generations deal with something so horrendous that is still in living history.
From a 21st century point of view Nations commit atrocities throughout history. Yet we understand, if not condone, manners of an age, and the reasons behind it. Humans conquer for their own tribe's benefit, I think no one here would disagree. The actions of the British Empire was for its own benefit, rather than just a set of beliefs. The White Man's Burden was the excuse for the land grab, rather than the cause.
Stalin killed 2-3 as many as the Nazis, but his actions can be seen as those of a extreme dictator. Some of his actions are actually no different to a WW1 general, THIS IS NOT TO EXCUSE HIM IN ANYWAY.
Nazi Germany, rightly or wrongly, is perceived differently, I guess because of the nature of the killing: not enemies just the victims of a lunatic ideology.
The reason I asked originally is that SeBigBoss is, I feel, the only German I know who I feel comfortable in asking, and I feel would take the question in the spirit it was meant. How do you deal day to day not only with the history, but the fact that the period is entertainment (films, games, video games etc)? It must seem weird.
SBB IF I HAVE OFFENDED, PLEASE CONTACT ME SO I CAN GIVE AN UNRESERVED APOLOGY.
A few comments from my own experiences with the subject.
Some of my German friends were coming over to visit on holiday, after making the mistake of watching Faulty Towers (We all know which episode I think) the night before we picked some of them up from the airport this subject came up. What I found interesting is that Auschwitz was a school trip for them in their youth, the basic message delivered was "This is what your forefathers did, don't do it again!"
A different German friend who lives in this country now (who I regularly ask how to pronounce things for my Teutonic and WW2 German army) is also an avid fan of re-enactment and history. I do medieval stuff myself but she didn't see any problems with WW2 reenactment, there is a group that does WW2 German for shows in the UK, but like our Danish friend said on here back home it's the younger people who have the problem with it. The people who lived through it seem to think it is a good idea, let others see what it was like during those times.
Finally, about the French. All the ones I've met love 'Allo Allo'
If you happen to be referring to me; I'm Dutch, not Danish :D
But don't worry; I'm not easily offended... although... ;)
Cheers,
Rob
'Allo 'Allo has been sold round the world, and dubbed to the local 'foriegn accent'
Apparently the German TV execs laughed all the way through the episodes they were shown. Wiping the tears from their eyes they said 'Its brilliant, but we'd never be able to show it'.
What bothers me is the tendency of so many of these Disney atrocity experiences (if I may so term the package tour version) is the effect they so often have of "That was then, it couldn't happen again". It's so easy when you've got such real monsters in your past to ignore the ones in your present; very convenient for the dragon to remind people how bad things were under Grendel.
Mmmmm...from memory...."The one thing the animals were sure of was that they did not want Jones back again."
I have hesitated on joining in this debate because I think that a lot of people won't like to hear what I have to say and the way I say it.
It is too popular nowadays to judge the actions of people in the past by the values of today. It has also become popular to denigrate the actions of people who were only defending themselves against an aggressor, we only have to examine what Israel is accused of by certain sections of the media and chattering classes.
First WWII.
Two things that I was taught at my mother's knee; she'd been born (so family history or myth claims) during a Zeppelin raid and had bombs dropped on her by the Germans twenty or so years later. She also worked for the British Military Government in Germany post WWII.
'You can't trust a fat German'.
'The Hun is either at your throat or at your feet'.
To be honest when I served in Germany back in the 70's I found most Germans to be no better and no worse than any one else.
A few other things I'd like to point out on Germany and German's.
The Nazis were voted into power by the German people...several times. Oddly about the only city that didn't whole heatedly support the Nazis was Berlin.
It has to be remembered that during the 20th century most of the countries of Europe were either preparing for a war with Germany, at war with Germany, or recovering from a war with Germany.
Check out grave yards in Belgium. 'Shot by the Germans 1914-1918', 'Shot by the Germans 1940-1945'. Even in Germany I think it unlikely you'll find any gave markers saying, 'Shot by the British'.
People should remember, before they go on about how terrible the British/Allies were, that no supposed atrocities carried out by either the Western Allies or the Soviets would have happened had not Germany invaded Poland in 1939.
On the other hand I always say that Hitler wasn't all bad...he did at least halt my mother's political ambitions...Mrs Thatcher would have looked like a liberal subversive next to my mother!
Now for the concentration camps...
The Germans used the name Concentration Camp as a cover for their DEATH CAMPS, you cannot compare the two.
First if you read any of the contemporary literature, you will find that the Boars weren't the most highly regarded of people. There treatment of the native peoples and foreign nationals working to develop the Boar state's natural resources (so the Boars could buy all those Mauser rifles, Maxim machine guns and Krupp artillery pieces) were to British eyes uncivilised in the extreme.
Let me also remind people that it was the Boars who set up fun things like 'Apartheid' a few years latter.
With typical military 'common sense' the British army put injured officers in charge of the Concentration camps, who basically left the Boars to organise themselves.
The Boars, who were used to living in widely isolated farmsteads had little concept of hygiene and sanitation so it wasn't surprising that cholera and other really unpleasant diseases swept through the camps. The camp commandants, who you remember had most likely been shot my Boars and were not trained to the same high standard as officers today, most likely thought, 'good residence' and quite frankly left them to die.
However, all this was reported in the British newspapers. By the time the 'Ladies of Good Works' had finished with the camps they had better public health than most large cities in Britain...strangely this is rarely reported by the 'Evil British Invented the Concentration Camp Brigade'.
The question of the inmates of the concentration camps being starved to death is a red herring, I think, most likely thought up be a Boar propagandist. While I'm not saying that it didn't happen, I would suggest that it wasn't a matter of policy or as wide spread as some would have you believe.
For all the British Empire's perceived faults, it has to remember that when we left we left behind the rule of law and the seed of democratic government. It's unfortunate that the native peoples didn't grasp this gift with both hands or had it snatched away from them by their own leaders. However we can be proud of the fact that we were instrumental in forming the worlds biggest parliamentary democracy, India.
Almost finally, (thank gods I hear you say) no nation is entirely black or white, they are all shades of grey. Some are dark grey some are light grey and others firmly in the middle.
Let me finish by saying that there's a good reason why the only two subjects on which discussion is forbidden in the officer's mess' of the British Army (and I suspect RN and RAF) are politics and religion. Some topics are just too divisive to be talked about on an open forum.
I think colonialism is the worst thing that happened to humanity.
You're way of seeing it is really really a whit-european consideration.
Modern capitalism just exists because WE (our ancestors ) made triangular commerce : Stealing human beings in Africa, to send them work and steal resources (mainly gold and silver, but wood too...) in south America, back to square one, where the money generated went in Dutch banks. Those banks permitted the industrial revolution in United Kingdoms, making loans to the british just-born industry.
I find this offensive :
"It's unfortunate that the native peoples didn't grasp this gift with both hands or had it snatched away from them by their own leaders."
You cannot build a country which main resources are drained away to a colonialist power.
For me, colonialism have set the actual situation, and all European power should be ashamed and grateful toward their former colonies.
(BTW I'm french, my dad was born in Madagascar from a French colon, and my Mom's mom was a colon in Morocco too, so I really know the point of view of my grand-parents about "we brought them civilisation and look what they have done about it..." : I find it disgusting.)
To go back to the first thread, I think that Humans have done awful things from the beginning, and as truly awful the Nazis were, I think there was and always will be atrocities in our history : I don't trust human nature.
You may be right about not speaking about politics... ;)
"The Nazis were voted into power by the German people...several times"
Absolute bollocks, they never won power through an election Hitler gained power in January 1933 when asked to form a government by Hindenburg, after several other coalition attempts had failed. He then suppressed his opponents and seized total power.
The Nazi's largest share of vote was in July 32 was 37% up fro 18% in 1930. In the November 1933 elections their share of vote had fallen to 33%, that was the last free election. The March 33 elections after massive suppression of opposition parties post Reichstag fire they still failed to win a majority - 43%.
But as the Daily Mail has shown this week why bother with the truth if it doesn't match your blinkered world view
Quote from: Last Hussar on 02 October 2013, 07:32:28 PM
Straight up- this is a touchy subject. I think (hope) Sebigboss will take it in the spirit in which it is meant, which is in friendship.
80 years ago your country had a period of, shall we say, collective lunacy. There is now a whole hobby dedicated to making entertainment out of the consequences, and discussion about the technical points. Does this ever feel a bit weird?
Interestingly there was a major debate when the first such pieces surfaced. A former member of the Council of Jews in Germany spoke on the matter.
For quite a while he pondered the numerous achievements through the centuries that are attached with "being german". Then he shortly expressed his sadness that Germany and Germans are reduced to 12 years of collective idiocy. He (like me) argues also that support for the Führer was 44. something % at best, leaving over 50 % actually against him. (My granddad joined the airforce as they were the only ones to employ him as a electrician and he became a radio operator. By an administrative mistake he was sent on holiday instead of joining his unit in Stalingrad!)
The Jewish Gentleman then said: ... so concerning the ridiculing of Hitler and the Nazis you are asking if you may do that? I say no, you HAVE TO.
As it has been mentioned before many nations have their bad spots, my Social Science teacher keeps arguing the empire killed more people annualy than Adolf in 12. Churchill himself was quite fond of the idea to nervegas Rebels in the middle east. Yet we call Churchill a hero and Adolf a bastard (or worse). I think we need to rethink ourselves on these matters. No one is free from guilt but some people realise it sooner than others.
I would never consider your question in any other manner Hussar. In fact I am the first to chime in on a good German bashing because I realised some of our traits are indeed puzzling others - to say the least.
=D> #:-S
Another Jewish Gentleman left Germany in the 60s. When my local football club signed two Jewish players some jerks went to the training grounds to utter their anti-semitic opinion. Apparently they were displeased witht he teams performance the day before (in which both players did not participate).
Besides a media outcry both players made statements concerning a few idiots should not get a stage and I had a discussion with said Jewish Gent. He would like to encourage the young generation of Germns to be proud of their country. We agreed these things were bad and we must never forget them but 'inheriting the guilt' of our forefathers and collective punishment are more than counter-productive.
As I said before: Everyone has some bad spots here and there. I have no prejudice against any race, nationality, religion, gender and whatnot. But i certainly reserve the right to call an idiot an idiot. I am not talking about everyday stupidity but about behavioural patterns. Hard to pinpint it but I guess everyone knows what I mean.
And being an idiot is, to my knowledge, not associated with any particular religion, gender, race, colour or whatnot.
To Steeleye. I think you and I are broadly in agreement, though you are better informed about the Boers than I. I fell out with them when the killed Raffles.
To Barbarian: I think you have also encapsulated my thoughts.I assume when your grand-parents said "we brought them civilisation and look what they have done about it..." they were being genuine. They saw people who were without the benefits of trains, modern medicine, Christianity and the benevolent rule by a benevolent European power, so popped in to civilise them. If that happened to increase the wealth of the European power, then that's fine. The lovely European power saw these wild children and settled upon them a paternal regime, and were quite surprised when the poor people objected. Nowadays the view of empire is that it is an evil thing. The view in the C19 was quite different.
Quote from: sebigboss79 on 04 October 2013, 02:29:28 PM
Another Jewish Gentleman left Germany in the 60s. When my local football club signed two Jewish players some jerks went to the training grounds to utter their anti-semitic opinion. Apparently they were displeased witht he teams performance the day before (in which both players did not participate).
things like that happened in the UK as well, when Chelsea signed Paul Canoville in the early 80's he was Chelsea's first non white player...some of the Chelsea supporters refused to acknowledge any goals he scored and heaped a lot of racist abuse on him. The supporters went as far to publish their own league tables which showed the result of the game without any goals scored by Canoville. So if Chelsea drew 1-1 and Canoville scored the Chelsea goal then the supporters regarded this as a 1-0 defeat
There will always be idiots no matter what country or whatever the era of history
It's good to see we all agree on the basic principles of this discussion which I think means the political thorn is now officially removed; huzzah! :D
A point on the Boer War subject I would like to make though (historical points of view/facts can still safely be discussed I guess?) is that I really don't believe the Boers had little concept of hygiëne and sanitation. What is absolutely sure is that a lot of them lived pretty well isolated (the so-called 'Takhaar' Boers) and therefore their resistance to humanly transferred diseases was well below average. The fact that this contributed to countless deaths when forced together in a relatively small space with minimal hygiene is a logical consequence. I for one would never blame the British military for not recognizing this since the mere existence of bacteria was hardly recognized by the time.
Barbarians observations on European economics seem to be cutting some corners in my opinion; slavery (as much as we reject it today) was a 'normal' trade during the 17th and especially the 18th century and benefitted indeed mainly the European countries. Let's not forget though that under the Roman empire slavery was also common practice as well as it has been throughout history and all over the world and let's face it; in different horrible forms still is! The gold and silver taken from South America was used by Spain to finance its religious wars throughout Europe; still the Spanish court kept going bankrupt time and time again. So were did this money go? Certainly not to the Dutch banks; the Dutch were doing their utmost to fight the Spanish... Spanish money was spent throughout Europe; raising troops (though usually the colonels belonged to the few who usually got paid) buying armament and securing political back-up in its vazal states. In the end; Spanish gold was squandered all over Europe both in payments and loot to the other party. Dutch banks were filled with money made all over the world; large amounts were actually earned within Europe transferring wood and grain from the Baltic and Russia partly from buying (yes, these products were bought from the indigenous people throughout the 17th and first half of the 18th century) cocoa, tea and spices all over the world and selling them throughout Europe. The Dutch were in no position to really colonize any lands until the late 18th century (and lost most pretty quickly to the British who 'guarded' them for us during the occupation of the Netherlands under Napoleon) and only opened trade- and resupplying posts along foreign coasts. British gold as far as I know was pretty well gone by the end of the Napoleonic wars from paying Russia, Prussia and Austria to keep them in the fight against Napoleon. The Industrial Revolution was payed for by entrepreneurs who made their own money (indeed not always in the most ethical ways, then again... what has changed?).
Please; feel free to comment; if anybody wants to correct these points I am open to discussion but it might be wise to open a new topic then?
As to the Germans; they've always been good neighbours to us; except for that one short period when they came in uninvited ;)
Cheers,
Rob
Quote from: Ace of Spades on 04 October 2013, 05:49:09 PM
As to the Germans; they've always been good neighbours to us; except for that one short period when they came in uninvited ;)
Polish? We came more often to France and only once to Poland. Took a terrible beating in the second half....
One of my friends here is Polish as well (Jarek) and we agreed the Polish and the Germans make the best beer and sausages and the Germans just came over because we were jealous of that and the sexy women =P~
Jarek then says this made the Polish men upset and they kicked us out..... ;D
Interesting statistics: If a German male marries a non German wife she is Polish in almost 70 % of the cases...Strangely my Ex IS Polish.... :P
Quote from: sebigboss79 on 04 October 2013, 10:05:19 PM
Polish? We came more often to France and only once to Poland. Took a terrible beating in the second half....
This time on the other side, SBB, it's the Dutch we're talking about. And yes, also a one time event. (
Disregarding the annual beach invasion, ofcourse).
Correct, aus Holland on this side ;)
The Germans stayed clear of our borders until 1940 when they realised that entering France through a gap the width of Belgium just wasn't good enough :-\
Up to that moment and since no roblems whatsoever (okay, the Bishop of Munsters behaviour in the late 18th century wasn't too polite, but that wasn't German politics...)!
Cheers,
Rob
Quote from: OldenBUA on 05 October 2013, 07:31:29 AM
(Disregarding the annual beach invasion, ofcourse).
Which by the way is a very awkward affair since it's the only beachinvasion I know of that is conducted from inland! :o
Cheers,
Rob
Apologies my brother.
I do have Dutch friends as well. He is working @ another Tabletop Company and his version of nevermind the nationality is: You can point anything at me, except the MG42.
Well there is a German party song that gives a very good reason for this beachinvasion :P Both are round shaped and particularly large in Dutchieland :P
And ever since 6 June 1944 the Germans have learned to have their towels on the beaches before 6am?
Hahaha! All true ;D The round objects you refer to defenitely must be a can of beer and a joint, correct? ;) Or are they more 'all around round' like the items I regularly see in the 'Totty' sections around here? :D
I have a lot of German friends in the re-enactment scene (mainly ACW) and those that I know that do re-enact WW-2 all do Yanks.
The absolutely best WW-2 re-enactment I ever did in all the years was the re-enactment of the 'liberation/occupation' of Eichenkofen, Bavaria about ten years ago or so. Weird to do something like that in Germany for the first time but everybody had one hell of a time!
We were driving around through the countryside in our recce-jeep with machineguns and everything on it and it happened to be during a football match of the World Championship that was being held that year. Germany was playing that afternoon and there was absolutely nobody on the Streets; very eerie... the only thing we missed were the white flags hanging from the houses. As I said; one of the best re-enactments ever!
The stories we heard there were so good since we always only heard the story of the liberation from Dutch and allied folks... it was good to experience the other side for a change.
Cheers,
Rob
Liberation also came for us.
You should get a book "Der Zweite Weltkrieg" by a Polish guy Janusz P-something.
I know my grandma was one of the lucky ones, having some land in her back yard to grow anything including potatoes.
With withdrawing Germans plundered half the potatoes, the "victorious French" threw everything including jam glasses around and what was left unspoiled helped her through the rationing.
I have seen pictures of German children begging Allied soldiers for food and at that time I wa snot much older than them. Years later -when life has not been as good to em as today- I learned how real hunger feels like.
Concerning the round objects you are correct with your assumption of said thread. Both these and tomatoes are said to be bigger in your country but when offered said objects and a beer any German would have a hard time choosing.....
@Last Hussar: That may be true but then again I blame the English in particular taking the best spots since June 6th 1944. Bloody tourists....
I find the idea of the Boar War interesting. Should be a range to bring in the bacon for the fantasy enthusiasts.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 11 October 2013, 08:59:36 AM
I find the idea of the Boar War interesting. Should be a range to bring in the bacon for the fantasy enthusiasts.
They're already here (though in the wrong scale).
(http://www.warehouse23.com/img/full/GCC17-2165.jpg)
The Semi-Colonials are drawn from a variety of species. The Boars are based on the European wild boar, with a culture from the Boers (Dutch colonists in South Africa) late 1800's.
http://www.warehouse23.com/item.html?id=gcc17-2165
I thought I was a bit weird: but first Roman teddy bears and now Boar-Boers! :o
Whatever next? GW producing reasonably priced figures?
Are you taking the wrong pills again fsn ? ;) :P
Cheers - Phil
He takes so many he rattles.......
IanS
Thank the Drak Lord for that! I thought the voices had changed to Morse code.
Yay FSN
the pharmacological piñata
£5 for a bag of 10mm centurions to chuck at him :D
As long he doesn't swallow them all in one go ! :o
Cheers - Phil
Quote from: sebigboss79 on 05 October 2013, 05:29:34 PM
I know my grandma was one of the lucky ones, having some land in her back yard to grow anything including potatoes.
With withdrawing Germans plundered half the potatoes, the "victorious French" threw everything including jam glasses around and what was left unspoiled helped her through the rationing.
When my hometown was invaed in 1940 (the breakthrough through the Peel-Raamstelling at Mill with an armoured train) my grandmothers sister was jus about to get wed that same day. They had filled the cellar with cakes, food, beer and liquor for the guests but when they got back after a week they found the cellar pretty well emptied by the passing troops :( Ah well; all except for the drink would have been spoilt anyway by that time... All other encounters with the Germans throughout the rest of the war were quite pleasant overall. Most German soldiers posted in these little towns on the countryside loved nothing more than visiting the locals in the evening and have coffeee and some social time with them as long as the progress of the war wasn't the subject :D. My grandfather had fought them in 1940 and lost a lot of comrades in the fighting around the airfields in the vicinity of The Hague, but still he saw no harm in socializing with the regular German soldier afterward as did most. That doesn't mean they weren't happy to see 'm leave in '44 but at least it wasn't personal.
Cheers,
Rob