Just in case you think I dropped my painting project, what I ran out of was more time to take pictures and still get everything painted.. I had two games today, twice through the same scenario. 2 Cavalry (units of 9), 6 infantry (units of 24), 3 battalion guns and 1 battery gun in 3 brigades, vs. 2 cavalry, 7 infantry (1 grenadier), 2 battalion guns and 1 battery gun (also 3 brigades). Great fun, conclusion in a bit more than 3 hours each time.
Pictures to follow, but I still have a day on vacation and figures to paint.
Good stuff - looking forward to the pics 8)
I'd be interested as to what mods you play, especially are you trying to limit movement?
Quote from: Last Hussar on 28 June 2010, 09:34:26 PM
I'd be interested as to what mods you play, especially are you trying to limit movement?
So far, just using centimeters; looks right with 10s. This was a learning game, so we deliberately stayed away from special rules. We experimented with counting the guns toward brigade breakpoint, which helped lend some endurance, given the small number of infantry units I have as of yet.
Sorry, by limit movement are you making it harder to do anything other than straight forwards movement? I'm also flirting with firing being 'Peter Pig style' - at least part of the target must be inside the 'flank lines', and if the cenre line doesn't cross the target it is an partial.
Also the probability graphs for Command are a bit odd '2 moves' is the least likely result in most instances. Have propoese 3 moves if roll is CV-3 AND no more than Half of CV (round down) SO a CV of 8 or 9- you need to roll 4 for three moves.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 29 June 2010, 05:20:16 PM
Sorry, by limit movement are you making it harder to do anything other than straight forwards movement? I'm also flirting with firing being 'Peter Pig style' - at least part of the target must be inside the 'flank lines', and if the cenre line doesn't cross the target it is an partial.
I have not had any problems with the rules as written on those - only forward and back under 12cm, and the obscured target rules at least in a preferred target context. When it comes to "lateral" movement, the rules as written have the virtue of simplicity.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 29 June 2010, 05:20:16 PM
Also the probability graphs for Command are a bit odd '2 moves' is the least likely result in most instances. Have propoese 3 moves if roll is CV-3 AND no more than Half of CV (round down) SO a CV of 8 or 9- you need to roll 4 for three moves.
Again, seems fine as is. I did a Monte-Carlo of the probability curve a while ago, but really the function of the roll is to give some risk of running out of steam unpredictably once you have issued your orders - I don't see the exact shape of the outcome curve as an issue. In any event, the world tends to "did ordinary" and "did extraordinary", "did a better than average but not much" might as well be a slightly lower probability event.
I ask about the movement because I am doing WSS, and it feels wrong for them to be running all over the place with gay abandon.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 01 July 2010, 10:12:41 PM
I ask about the movement because I am doing WSS, and it feels wrong for them to be running all over the place with gay abandon.
I can understand that. Don't know the WSS period well myself; and with these rules I am trying just to enjoy them as a "toy soldier" game.
Also testing Marlburian. Movement did not seem too bad to me. We deployed at maximum artillery range and have so far only engaged the two wings. It may look too fast if your orders succeed every move, but I think the failures can balance the apparent speed. Having said that there are only 2 of us and we are playing a large game so the overall feeling is not one of speed.
Chad
Quote from: Chad on 02 July 2010, 08:21:51 AM
we are playing a large game so the overall feeling is not one of speed.
How many units, and how large are your brigades? I only have about a dozen battalions at the moment, and half a dozen battalions a side makes a very fast game indeed.
Brigades of 3-5 battalions, with about 5-6 brigades per side, plus horse. Our current plan once testing is finished is to double the battalion sizes from 12 to 24 figures to play 'smaller' games. I think we will see a faster game at that point, but as I said with only 2 of us and a permanent table we tend not to notice the speed element too much. The change of battalion size is more for visual effect than anything else.
Chad
What frontages are you using with these small battalion, and does it change the game if the ratio with the rest of the rules is changed? My bases are 20mm ( this is 45mm at 40% ie Inch to cm conversion. Ok it should be 18mm per base but 1) 3x2 figures don't quite fit and more importantly 2) 20mm is easier to cut - it means my lines are 12mm too long!
My Prussian Brigade is 4 battalions and I reckon the Austrians will be 5 and 6, + 3 cavalry, and 2 Austrian Currassiers
Quote from: Last Hussar on 02 July 2010, 04:34:47 PM
What frontages are you using with these small battalion, and does it change the game if the ratio with the rest of the rules is changed? My bases are 20mm ( this is 45mm at 40% ie Inch to cm conversion. Ok it should be 18mm per base but 1) 3x2 figures don't quite fit and more importantly 2) 20mm is easier to cut - it means my lines are 12mm too long!
My Prussian Brigade is 4 battalions and I reckon the Austrians will be 5 and 6, + 3 cavalry, and 2 Austrian Currassiers
I am using 3 30mm square bases and centimeters, 2 ranks of 4 files. Using cm, it is not that different from the rule's recommended size in inches for the same number of figures. You have to exercise some care to keep everyone within 12cm for a brigade order, which strikes me as a key point of the frontage exercise.
We are doing a straight conversion from inches to cm as well- the only place I haven't is as I said I'm using 20mm bases for a 3 figure frontage, rather than 18mm which would be mathematical. My opponent, who sometimes posts here as Sunjester, is going for 4x30mm I believe.
The rules I am working on for the period I've linked to before, but I will shamelessly link to again http://lasthussar.wordpress.com/2010/06/02/war-of-spanish-succession-for-black-powder-rules/
Feel free to comment on the post - hits make me feel important!
There is something missing from this thread...
... Oh yeah
Black Powder are the worst set of rules ever. They are not even finished, just a tool box of suggestions. Typical British writers who don't have the discipline of American writers
(rant continues ad nauseum)
At present we are not concerned about the base sizes. We presently use a single base we developed to use the rules from the Warflag site a while ago. We are simply testing the 'mechanics' of our mods to BP. (I've posted a few things on your blog).
The rebasing will be 30 x 20 for 6 infantry and 40 x 30 for 4 cavalry.
Chad
Quote from: Last Hussar on 02 July 2010, 09:57:18 PM
Typical British writers...
:D
It is interesting that, in the split between BP-lovers and BP-haters the line of the split seems to be on a series of points both sides more-or-less agree to be true. ;D
Lentulus
I think you're right. I also think that a lot of people who bought BP (and rage against them) didn't fully understand what they were buying and still don't. A recent 'discussion' on TMP tried to compare BP and Republic to Empire. I tried to point out that there really cannot be any comparison as the writers' intentions/ideas are miles apart. I have both sets and made sure I had read and fully understood what reviewers had to say. What I got was exactly what I expected, one generic set of rules for 'fun' games and one detailed period-specific set for what I would describe as the more common type of wargame.
Chad
I'm just looking at getting into BP (a new rule set) and 7YW (a new period) so the learning curve is going to be exciting.
At the moment I'm looking at converting the 25mm scales down for 10mm figures, at the moment I'm looking to use 20mm x 20mm bases with two rows of 6 figures as a "standard" base, 6 bases will make a "standard" unit so 36 figures to a unit.
As for distances I'm thinking of converting the rules inches to cm, dividing by 2 and rounding up any halves, so 6" becomes 8cm etc. This should work but I think there is an anomaly in that units adancing in march columns won't have room to deploy into line but this seems the case i the 28m rules so I'll just see how it play and "tweek" the distances as I see fit.
Reading through the rules I must say I like 'em, almost every wargamer I've ever met (especially me) looks at a set of rules and says something like, "They're pretty good except..." or " the mechanics are ok but..." or " I don't agree with..." and then goes on to impose their own point of view on the rules. Black Powder seems to be saying "These are the basic mechanics, we know you're going to tinker with the rules so get on with it, just play decently and have a good time".
Dan - just use the numbers as written, but use cm instead of inches, rather than muck about with the maths. I've put my 10mm on 20mm bases like you - the equivalent of 45mm bases in the rules (15mm frontage per man, 3 men). I've posted before about this.
A cm is 40% of an inch. The rules are for 25/28mm - ie an inch, and we are using 10mm, ie a cm.
40% of 45mm is 18mm, so close enough. Strictly speaking a line should be 10.6cm (45mm x 6, then @40%), but ends up as 12cm - what half an inch between freinds (fnar fnar)? I can't be bothered to cut 16mm (40% of a 2 man 40mm base) or 18mm bases.
A 6ft by 12ft table from the book becomes a lot smaller - 6 ft = 72 inches. Convert to 40%, and you get a table 72cm x 144cm - thats 2'4" by 4'9". That's the ACW scenario moved from a full size snooker table, which you don't have room for, and can't reach the middle, to an average dining room table (minus condiments)
Of course you could use the rules exactly as written, but put 10mm figures on the 40mm base - should be able to get a frontage of 6/base, 36 per unit.
Hello all
Had my first BP SYW game the other night at the club. Played very well using my 10mm Pendraken Austrians and Prussian.
I use 40mm by 20mm bases with 10 figures per base. Each regiment is 3 bases ( effectively a Pendraken pack of 30 figures ). I downloaded a conversion Quick Reference sheet from the Warlord Games forum. Each side had 3 brigades of infantry comprising of 5/6 regiments and an artillery battery as well as a cavalry brigade of 6 squadrons each. Now I don't claim to be a specialist in syw but we did stipulate that there was no column of attack only linear or march column.
Considering neither of us had played before we both enjoyed the game. It was fun and was concluded in 3.5 hours.
The rules will probably suit me as I am a 19th century wargaming freak and will allow me to adapt the rules to each specific period/engagement.
The club intends to run a 28mm game in September on a 18ft by 6ft table so I will probably playtest them with my 10mm figures.
cheers
Quotejust use the numbers as written, but use cm instead of inches, rather than muck about with the maths
Duh.... why didn't I think of that? Much simpler and more elegant!
But just one small question, if a number of battalions are in attack column and have to stay 6cm apart to be classed as a brigade for ordering purposes if they are ordered into line there won't be enough room for them to deploy, how do you work this?
Dan
Quote from: DanJ on 23 July 2010, 10:25:50 AM
Duh.... why didn't I think of that? Much simpler and more elegant!
But just one small question, if a number of battalions are in attack column and have to stay 6cm apart to be classed as a brigade for ordering purposes if they are ordered into line there won't be enough room for them to deploy, how do you work this?
Dan
To receive a brigade order, there must be a chain of units no more that 6cm from one another at each unit's closest point; distance mods for for the command roll are counted form the commander to the most distant from him for that order. So your column could shake out into line from a single brigade order provided no units ended up isolated more than 6cm from the nearest of its fellows.
Because of the distance mods, a large brigade in a single line gets harder to maneuver, but that seems a reasonable thing to me.
Keep in mind, you do not have to give one order to the whole brigade - you could give a brigade order to 2 units, a second brigade order to 2 other units, and a single order to the skirmishers with the Marauder special rule on the far side of the table. Also, the brigade remains a brigade organizationally even if it does not qualify to be moved with a single brigade order. If the skirmishers on the far side of the table gets walloped, the whole brigade counts that toward its breaking point.
I think I'm being dim, must be the hot Friday afternoon.
I understand the rules about issuing brigade orders and it's the rule which says to recieve a brigade order units must be no more than 6cm (or inches) from each other which is casuing me a headache.
I have 4 battalions on 6 2x2cm bases in attack column (call them A,B,C and D), each attack column is 2 bases wide and 3 bases deep and they are arranged in line 6cm between them. They recieve an order to form line.
Battalion A forms a line on its command stand, moving two stands from the column to each side of the front 2 stands there is plenty of room to do this.
Battalion B forms line on its command stand but a there is only 2cm from the side of Battalion A it must either move sideways 2cm to deploy correctly or deploy 1 base to its left touching Battalion A and three to the right which could be illegal as the command stand may not be in the centre of the unit.
If Battalion B deploys 1 company to the left and 3 to the right it will now be touching battalion C.
Battalion C tries to deploy but is touching B so can only deploy to its right but there is only 6cm to deploy before contacting Battalion D, does D move sideways to allow C to deploy before deploying itself to its right and ending up in an illegal formation?
Is the answer to issue two orders, one to move the battalions to a position where there is space and one to deploy? If this is the case then what happens if only 1 order is passed, the battalions can't move becasue they will end up more than 6cm apart!
This is the same case in 28mm using 4x4cm bases and 6" brigade command distances., unless you stagger the lines there doesn't appear to be a way of moving from attack columns to line in a single order. and if you try and move from march column to line its even worse. But if you increase the distance from 6 to 8cm for 10mm figs the problem goes away.
Quote from: DanJ on 23 July 2010, 01:46:39 PM
I think I'm being dim, must be the hot Friday afternoon.
I understand the rules about issuing brigade orders and it's the rule which says to recieve a brigade order units must be no more than 6cm (or inches) from each other which is casuing me a headache.
I have 4 battalions on 6 2x2cm bases in attack column (call them A,B,C and D), each attack column is 2 bases wide and 3 bases deep and they are arranged in line 6cm between them. They recieve an order to form line.
Battalion A forms a line on its command stand, moving two stands from the column to each side of the front 2 stands there is plenty of room to do this.
Battalion B forms line on its command stand but a there is only 2cm from the side of Battalion A it must either move sideways 2cm to deploy correctly or deploy 1 base to its left touching Battalion A and three to the right which could be illegal as the command stand may not be in the centre of the unit.
If Battalion B deploys 1 company to the left and 3 to the right it will now be touching battalion C.
Battalion C tries to deploy but is touching B so can only deploy to its right but there is only 6cm to deploy before contacting Battalion D, does D move sideways to allow C to deploy before deploying itself to its right and ending up in an illegal formation?
Is the answer to issue two orders, one to move the battalions to a position where there is space and one to deploy? If this is the case then what happens if only 1 order is passed, the battalions can't move becasue they will end up more than 6cm apart!
This is the same case in 28mm using 4x4cm bases and 6" brigade command distances., unless you stagger the lines there doesn't appear to be a way of moving from attack columns to line in a single order. and if you try and move from march column to line its even worse. But if you increase the distance from 6 to 8cm for 10mm figs the problem goes away.
There is nothing in the rules forbidding the sidesteps you mention provided no figure moves more than his allowed distance. It is visually unsatisfying. I don't have the problem with my deployment from that formation because my battalions are only 9cm long.
However, that is not the SYW method for deployment - at least for Prussians if I have this right. Instead, the brigade would march in column of divisions or platoons until the lines are parallel to the enemy, facing at right angles to the axis of attack, then wheel by divisions (or platoons) for a quarter wheel to face. So advance in column of march in the battle formations (my brigades form in 2 lines) then deploy with a facing change. The command stand moves to the middle by magic (or at the double).
The problem we are facing here is an historical one - deploying from a march order into a combat formation is inherently hard, and lots of battles involve one side or the other caught with their pants down. Now there is one thing on your side, if you must deploy 3 units into to their front starting more than 6cm apart. If you order the columns to deploy without moving forward, you will have to give 3 separate orders but at least if you fail on one (and don't bungle) it gets it's free move.
If you are playing a slightly later period you could deploy from column of route into attack columns with a 6cm separation, then shake into line when you are a bit closer to the enemy.
Anyway, I see the rule on that one as a challenge, not a problem needing a rule fix. Look at alternate deployment drills, and deploy to a combat formation well out of reach of the enemy.
Thanks Lentulus,
I'm only just getting into 7YW and it's completely new.
This issue came up in a game last Tuesday, we were using 15mm figs on 2x2cm bases (4 figs to a base). The game looked fine and the mechanics were great until I needed to deploy some attack columns into line then realised there wasn't room. We moved the figures sideways but it felt odd and I couldn't find anything in the rules so thought I'd ask.
I didn't think 7YW armies used attack columns, just lines and march columns.
Quote from: DanJ on 23 July 2010, 04:01:27 PM
I'm only just getting into 7YW and it's completely new.
Have you read Duffy's "Army of Frederick the Great"? It gets at some of these issues. I am trying to remember if "The Military Experience in the Age of Reason" does or not, it is a bit easier to find.
QuoteHave you read Duffy's "Army of Frederick the Great"?
No, my entire library for 7YW is a thin introductory volume to French uniforms!
But as I dont have any figures yet (Leon where's my order? :-*) never mind anything painted I recon I've got a few months to do some reading and planning.
Any other recomendations, especially for the French gratefully received.
Dan
Quote from: DanJ on 24 July 2010, 06:34:21 PM
But as I dont have any figures yet (Leon where's my order? :-*)
It's on the side, ready to go first thing on Monday!
Not aware of much (in English) just on the French.
Duffy's "Military Experience in the Age of Reason" is well worth it, and back in print.
I quite likes Szabo's "Seven Years War in Europe" and it is out in softcover.
Savory's "His Britannic Majesty's Army in Germany During The Seven Years War" is expensive to buy, but in decent university libraries if you have access to one. And the French are big in that one, obviously.
Also, read up on the War of the Austrian Succession. Uniforms are not that different, and a completely different arrangement of enemies.
The rules say that to preserve a brigade structure units must not be more than 6" apart and not a maximum of 6" apart.
I would deploy the brigade columns in a chequerboard formation so that on deployment into line the second line of units could each be within 6" of the first line
__ __ __
__ __ __
Chad
Thanks for all the advice.
Dan