OK, so i've been using the DuxBel WotR rules conversion i bashed together for a while now, including for an in-club tournament and they work very well!! All credit to Dan MErsey for his excellent ruleset.
I've added a few tactical hints, comments and observations to the blog that have come out the games we've been playing.
http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/dux-bellorum-wars-of-roses-unofficial.html (http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/dux-bellorum-wars-of-roses-unofficial.html)
Simple and very effective, nice one sir.
Good work. Quite similar to some parts of my 100 years war variant I am writing and tweaking although I have added a spies and scouts pre-game phase, and a few other bits and bobs.
Interested in your Longbow stat line, mine reads
Move 2
Brv 8
Agg 2 (4 with bow)
Protection 4
Cohesion 3
Army points 5
5bw range, hits on 4+, no move and fire
Crossbow by comparison
Move 2
Brv 8
Agg 2 ( 3 with bow)
Protection 4
Cohesion 3
Army points 4
5bw range, hits on 4+, no move and fire, +1 missile agg if range sub 2bw.
I also differentiate my mercs slightly differently with them having the same stat line as their native equiv but they cost 1 less army point per unit but their bravery is also reduced by 1. This means for example a Genoese xbow uses the stats above but is 3 army points and has a bravery of 7.
Still playtesting the siege warfare element.......
Cheers,
Craig
Quote from: TinyTerrain on 18 July 2013, 10:12:52 AM
Good work. Quite similar to some parts of my 100 years war variant I am writing and tweaking although I have added a spies and scouts pre-game phase, and a few other bits and bobs.
Interested in your Longbow stat line, mine reads
Move 2
Brv 8
Agg 2 (4 with bow)
Protection 4
Cohesion 3
Army points 5
5bw range, hits on 4+, no move and fire
Crossbow by comparison
Move 2
Brv 8
Agg 2 ( 3 with bow)
Protection 4
Cohesion 3
Army points 4
5bw range, hits on 4+, no move and fire, +1 missile agg if range sub 2bw.
I also differentiate my mercs slightly differently with them having the same stat line as their native equiv but they cost 1 less army point per unit but their bravery is also reduced by 1. This means for example a Genoese xbow uses the stats above but is 3 army points and has a bravery of 7.
Still playtesting the siege warfare element.......
Cheers,
Craig
Interesting stats sir. I'd be keen to know how they work out for you and they look insanely overpowered to me!
Move 2
Brv 8Standard BRV for almost all 'core' troops is 7. 8 places them into the mobility realm of skirmishers or elite infantry. Given that archers during the 100YW were
less mobile(?) I'd even suggest making BRV 6 (perhaps with something like 'robust' so they roll on 7 for Break tests?)
Agg 2 (4 with bow)
Protection 4
Cohesion 3
5bw range, hits on 4+, no move and fire
Wow.
OK, so foot unit trying to advance into the front of these bowmen will take 12 shots hitting on 4+? That surely will destroy ANYTHING before it gets anywhere near? Even a mounted knights unit will take at least 8 shots (with LPs possibly as much as 14 shots) getting through.
I'm getting visions of archery akin to the rate and power of a WWI Vickers HMG here!
I've got my bows at 3 dice hitting on 5+ at 4BW, with 4+ within 1BW.
Experimental archaeology has shown that the archery for example at Agincourt was not very effective at penetrating plate armour beyond about 25 yards (the majority of problems for the French knights were the arrows butchering their horses, and the poor ground hampering their advance). The slaughter only appeared to happen at close range once the knights, now on foot, were within 'armour penetration range'.
4 dice hitting on 4+ at 5BW range seems brutally excessive to me. How has it played out in practice?
Also, 'no move and fire'? Isn't this the default for all archery in Dux Bellorum? If you shoot you can't move. If I recall from the core game, only skirmishers with javelins can shoot and move??
Cohesion 3?
Fair enough but I think that places them in the 'poor quality' bracket which is why I put my 'retinue' longbowmen at 4 and the militia at 3.
With AGG 4 (4+) and COH 3, don't you find archery duels are over in 1-2 turns with mutually assured destruction?
After all, say 2 turns of shooting at Range 5BW without LP use gives you 8 dice at 4+ to score 3 hits. Butchery!! And those nice heavily armoured knights, companions, armoured foot knights, etc. are all so much 'spam in a can' too aren't they?
Army points 5I should say so!!
But doesn't this mean your 100YW armies are TINY?
Lets look at Agincourt (32pt army).
1x Companions (Henry V) 5pts
1x Foot knights 5pts?
1x Artillery 5pts? (There were early guns there as I recall).
3x Archers 5pts each
2pts left over...
Presumably the French knights are statted to 5pts also? So your battles are 6 units per side?
Your ideas about crossbows are interesting. Again I'd like to see how they play out. I actually think I have my stats for them wrong, and potentially the combination with pavises is seriously flawed but none of my players have used continental crossbowmen so I haven't tested them in action. Hehe...
They should be less effective than longbows, but better at penetrating armour.
Hi
Good observations, and I'll replying full when back in front if my pc later on.
So far I have play tested long bows at 4+ and 5+ and in reality there was little difference in gameplay, but perhaps that's because the English LB have mainly come up against knights on horseback moving at 4bw (which makes charge range just under 5bw), so in reality there's 1 round of missile fire, or 4 shots at 4+, with knights having a protection of 5......not so bad
In my version the kings companions also have the ability to rally troops.
As for army size, the minimum I have played is 60 points, with most games being 75 points a side.
Will post more later.
Cheers,
Craig
Quote from: TinyTerrain on 18 July 2013, 01:38:36 PM
Hi
Good observations, and I'll replying full when back in front if my pc later on.
:D
Quote
As for army size, the minimum I have played is 60 points, with most games being 75 points a side.
Interesting.
How did you handle Leadership Points?
I found that using larger armies kicked the LP distributions out of kilter and affected the game. We took to playing multiples of 32pts, with each 'command' operating as a self contained army - as here http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/battle-of-barnet-14th-april-1471-dux.html (http://luddite1811.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/battle-of-barnet-14th-april-1471-dux.html)
In "Star and Garter" (my 100YW variant) you still get 6 LP however they are used differently from the original game. Firstly you cannot soak up hits with LP, instead 3 of the 6 are always retained by the Kings Companions who at the end of each turn my attempt to rally any troops within 4BW of his stand. For each LP that the KC expends on a unit you roll 1D6 and on a 5+ that unit regains 1 cohesion, up to a max of its starting value. The only exception to this is that if the KC is in close combat at the end of the turn he may not rally his troops. This serves the purpose of ensuring that the KC remains close to the centre of the action but isnt used as a super unit to break through enemy lines Etc. The remaining 3LP can be used by any of the troops (except mercenaries) as originally intended by Dan Mersey, eg, for boosting agression, outbidding for movement rights Etc.
Quote from: Luddite on 18 July 2013, 12:32:32 PM
Interesting stats sir. I'd be keen to know how they work out for you and they look insanely overpowered to me!
Move 2
Brv 8
Standard BRV for almost all 'core' troops is 7. 8 places them into the mobility realm of skirmishers or elite infantry. Given that archers during the 100YW were less mobile(?) I'd even suggest making BRV 6 (perhaps with something like 'robust' so they roll on 7 for Break tests?)
Agg 2 (4 with bow)
Protection 4
Cohesion 3
5bw range, hits on 4+, no move and fire
Wow.
OK, so foot unit trying to advance into the front of these bowmen will take 12 shots hitting on 4+? That surely will destroy ANYTHING before it gets anywhere near? Even a mounted knights unit will take at least 8 shots (with LPs possibly as much as 14 shots) getting through.
I'm getting visions of archery akin to the rate and power of a WWI Vickers HMG here!
I've got my bows at 3 dice hitting on 5+ at 4BW, with 4+ within 1BW.
Experimental archaeology has shown that the archery for example at Agincourt was not very effective at penetrating plate armour beyond about 25 yards (the majority of problems for the French knights were the arrows butchering their horses, and the poor ground hampering their advance). The slaughter only appeared to happen at close range once the knights, now on foot, were within 'armour penetration range'.
4 dice hitting on 4+ at 5BW range seems brutally excessive to me. How has it played out in practice?
Also, 'no move and fire'? Isn't this the default for all archery in Dux Bellorum? If you shoot you can't move. If I recall from the core game, only skirmishers with javelins can shoot and move??
Cohesion 3?
Fair enough but I think that places them in the 'poor quality' bracket which is why I put my 'retinue' longbowmen at 4 and the militia at 3.
With AGG 4 (4+) and COH 3, don't you find archery duels are over in 1-2 turns with mutually assured destruction?
After all, say 2 turns of shooting at Range 5BW without LP use gives you 8 dice at 4+ to score 3 hits. Butchery!! And those nice heavily armoured knights, companions, armoured foot knights, etc. are all so much 'spam in a can' too aren't they?
Army points 5
I should say so!!
But doesn't this mean your 100YW armies are TINY?
Lets look at Agincourt (32pt army).
1x Companions (Henry V) 5pts
1x Foot knights 5pts?
1x Artillery 5pts? (There were early guns there as I recall).
3x Archers 5pts each
2pts left over...
Presumably the French knights are statted to 5pts also? So your battles are 6 units per side?
Your ideas about crossbows are interesting. Again I'd like to see how they play out. I actually think I have my stats for them wrong, and potentially the combination with pavises is seriously flawed but none of my players have used continental crossbowmen so I haven't tested them in action. Hehe...
They should be less effective than longbows, but better at penetrating armour.
So, in order, I think:
I went for Brv 8 as this stat reflects not just mobility but control, command and morale. 8 puts them slighly above a standard core unit, but not as motivated as, say a noble in the original rules, which I though was fair. I will have a try at Brv 7 and compare though.
I think I covered most of the reasons for the LBow hitting on 4+ with 4 dice in my previous post. I dont know for one minute that it is historically accurate but I wanted to make L bow expensive (in terms of A Points) and a bit cinematic if used correctly. Having said that their stats are a lot less dramatic than the Noble Warriors in the orginal game and cost the same. Like you I limit my Lbow to 3 phases of missile fire, after which they are average foot soldiers at 5 points, so are quite expensive. The comment about cohesion 3 is a valid one and I think I will change this to 4.....thanks. Note as well that you cannot use LP to boost missile fire so the most that any foot unit would suffer (if they time it right) is 2 rounds of fire as they approach, that = 8 shots at 4+ (Foot Knights have 5 cohesion, Retainers and Brigands 4). Once in hand to hand a Knight will peel an Archer like a bannana (Brv 9, Agg 6, Protection 5, Cohesion 5, Army Points 5).
Yes no move and shoot is the standard, I just noted it as having them running round the fields and firing would be lethal :-)
With regards to points values, a typical game of S&G is 60-75 points with 10 points that must be used for tactics and/or the Spies and Scouts pre-game phase. To explain a little further, hers an extract from the rules:
"When designing your force you may purchase Scouts and / or Spies for use in the pre-game phase. Both Scouts and Spies cost 2 points each. Once the Armies are deployed on the battlefield, but before any movement or combat takes place, the player who has purchased the most Spies for their army nominates one of their opponents units (any but the Kings Companion) and rolls 1D6. On a roll of a 6 that unit is removed from play to simulate the spy either managing to bribe, coerce or deceive the unit's leader into not coming to battle. Each side takes in turn until all spies have operated, at which point the armies break point is recalculated. The loss of these troops do not effect the leadership points available to each army, with both starting with 6 points.
When all spies have operated, the player who has purchased the most Scouts for their army nominates one of their own skirmish units, and converts them to a scout. By becoming a scout that unit gets to move 1D6 base widths immediately in any direction. The opposing player now does the same with one of their skirmish units (if they have any scouts). The scout movement then returns to player one who may convert another skirmisher to a scout, and so on until both players run out of Scouts or does not wish to convert anymore skirmishers. For the remainder of the game scout units move at 1D6 BW per turn, but does not have to roll against bravery in order to do so (it is automatic). In all other respects Scouts operate as a normal skirmish units, except scouts may not capture enemy camps."
So most games are actually 50-65 points of on the field troops, which means typically between 12 and 20 units per side.
The other thing you may have noticed from the above description is that each side has a camp. Capturing your enemy camp causes an automatic Morale test. As a result more often than not ome troops are left to protect the encampment.
One last note, I have Pavise as a tactic which the French can "buy" when makign their army. Increases to hit to a 6 on all but artillery fire, cost 2AP, and like your rules, if you fallback you loose the Pavise
You know what I might just have to bustout the minis and have another game tonight........
You might be interested to read this short AAR from Friday nights game:
http://wargames.blog.co.uk/2013/07/15/aar-battle-for-windmill-vineyards-16237780/
Cheers,
Craig
Tiny Terrain Models