Hi All
How about a subscription system for new figures or better yet entire ranges! A number of the Board game companies use this to get the upfront cost for printing before they go to the printer.
There are couple of ways to do this, I would think the first is a wish list. This you already have but it really is not that useful for you the manufacture, you might get someone hot on something and unless there is follow up it really does not mean anything in the vast majority of cases.
I would propose to create a list of figures, for an entire range say French Rev, as I have spoken to Dave before about. Next you have a prepay option with paypal or a commitment by the buyer with a credit card number for x number of figures.
Now Dave knows how much he needs to start a range this can vary from the entire cost of the sculpting and mold making or just a portion of that cost, this could vary based on the size and possible popularity of the range.
So in my example we could have an extensive range of Rev war French, with 1797 Austrians, Peidmontese for the Italian campaign. This would contain all the figs needed for the Italian and German Campaigns of 1796-97. The Peidmontese are essentially in the same uniform as the Prussians.
Offer a discount for say 200, 300 and 500 pounds preorders. Have a deadline for completion of say one year. The discount would be for the range so all the figures would get produced. So those that have prepaid you get the figs shipped as they are produced.
The reason that a French Rev range would be ideal is that it is a period that no one really has a complete range (Eureka is working on a 28mm range but is along way from complete). This means that the vast majority of Napoleonic players that already have hundreds of 15mm can get into a new period within the Napoleonic age in a new scale so now they are not duplicating there figures (this is I believe going to be a hindrance to the 1809 range unless it is being done on commission). Then you can add to it with Russians and British for 1799 in both Italy and Holland. Then add Prussians and you have a pretty complete early war range. This can all be done by subscription. With the power of the internet an add blitz would easily create a good sized number of preorders!
I am more than willing to put in 300 for French, Austrian and Peidmontese as long as the quality is as the new AWI and 1870 ranges!!!!!
William Keyser
Below is a list of Austrians that I and Christopher Tenwolde put together when we attempted to get a French Rev range off the ground in 10mm a few years ago. We also have lists for the French in the Ragged look and Peidmontese, along with cavalry and other goodies. A pretty complete list of what nut case like us want in a range!
Austrian Infantry Figure Variants (58)
AI10 German Fusiliers in Casquet 3 march attack
AI11 German Command in Casquet 3 officers (in bicornes), 1 flag, 1 drummer
AI12 German Skirmishers in Casquet 2 firing, 2 loading
AI20 Hungarian Fusiliers / Grenz in Casquet 3 march attack
AI21 Hungarian Command in Casquet 3 officers (in bicornes), 1 flag, 1 drummer
AI22 Hungarian Skirmishers in Casquet 2 firing, 2 loading
AI30 German Grenadiers in Bearskin 3 march attack
AI31 German Command in Bearskin 2 officers, 1 flag, 1 drummer
AI32 German Grenadiers skirmishing 2 firing 2 loading
AI40 Hungarian Grenadiers in Bearskin 3 march attack
AI41 Hungarian Command in Bearskin 2 officers, 1 flag, 1 drummer
AI50 Jaegers in Corsehut 3 march attack
AI51 Jaeger Command in Corsehut 2 officers, 1 drummer
AI52 Jaeger Skirmishers in Corsehut 2 firing, 2 loading
AI60 Grenz in Klobuk 3 march attack
AI61 Grenz Command in Klobuk 2 officers, 1 drummer
AI62 Grenz Skirmishers in Klobuk 2 firing, 2 loading
Foot command pack consisting of various commanders Brigade and higher, at least 10 different officers.. Diorama ideas.
Also make marker figs so a couple running away, some wounded, some helping wounded some dead.
3 march attack
3 march attack Hungarian
4 firing
4 firing Hungarian
3 march attack grenadiers
3 march attack grenadiers Hungarian
4 officers poses
2 drummers
4 flag bears
Heads
Casquet
Bearskin
Corsehut
Klobuk
Sounds good. Eureka use a similar system I believe. Sufficient interest/orders = production.
Chad
It's a nice idea, and one that seems to work quite well for Eureka. The biggest problem for us is that firstly we don't have enough designers, and secondly we wouldn't want to take people's money in advance, in case something happened which delayed the range.
The requests lists which we are keeping are helping us to see what people are interested in seeing, and we are starting to structure our design schedules around this. Our main full-time designer is working on several projects at the moment, including the SCW, WW2 Pacific, and Napoleonics, and will be busy with those for the next 6 months or so. Other designers have a lot of work on for other people, so we have to share their time, which in turn slows down the production. Ideally, we need more designers, but finding people with the necessary ability, and at a reasonable price, is very difficult.
The Eureka offer is essentially risk-free business. They have all the money/orders in advance to produce the range. But what happens if a person decides they don't want any of the new figures after all? Or the new figures aren't the right look for some people? You will end up with some unhappy customers. I wouild imagine that a lot of people would also say, "I'll promise to buy some, as long as you get Figure X designed".
We prefer to produce the figures, let people see them and then if they like them, they will buy them. We wouldn't want to disappoint people by having a project that overran the deadlines, or wasn't quite what people were wanting.
With Revolutionary French, we do have a designer who is interested in producing this range, but it will depend on when he has the time free.
Hi Leon
I can see that having a designer tied up on a big project would be a problem. However, I still think that if you offer this service that there are a lot of people that do business with you that would trust you do get the project done and would be willing to pay upfront for the figures, I know I would and know of various other gamers who would be willing to take on the risk.
I think the idea that Eureka uses is good but if you have paid for the figures up front then the customers are unlikely to change their minds.
The main benefit I can see for you the manufacture is that a range is completed so you would, I believe, get more sales earlier. Not many people buy into a range until it is complete, particularly a new period or a range that no one else makes figures for. I know that is what I do.
The way I was looking at this was to create a range for a period that is growing in popularity with much less risk for you the producer.
Since you do have a designer interested in producing the range than an influx of money to kick start the range and allow the designer to get going with the range. I also have pdfs for all the uniforms and showing various poses that would be great.
William
Leon I can see your concern, but agree with William. Another option may be to take a non-refundable deposit, say 25% of the forward order, with the balance payable on delivery. This would secure a commitment, provide up front funding and give cover in the event that the purchaser eventually decided to cancel. I would have no problem with this. It would be interesting to see how many other members of the forum would be interested in this.
Chad
Hi guys,
Well, obviously I'm a fan of the idea (for almost ten years now?), and I do think that the situation has improved on several levels since the last attempts were made. The key here is balancing the exposure of the producer with the expectations of the purchasers. Eureka's model succeeds in a large part because they have a stable, well developed sculpting style and a proven track record of producing niche products. The positive side there is that the gamers have a firm belief in the quality of the figures to be produced, but the downside is that the model has never really been applied to producing a whole range - just single specialty figures or small groups of a dozen or so.
Pendraken uses a variety of sculptors, but many of them are known by their ranges. So ... if, for instance, we were able to talk Clib into resurrecting his interest in early Napoleonics, people would have a great confidence in the eventual quality of the figures, and in his dedication to finish the line (even if it does take a while ...). That takes care of purchaser confidence, and I think the sculptor's position has also been helped by the appearance of the Eureka line, which would provide a great template to "shrink down" into 10mm scale, much as Clib did with the Foundry LR lines and his first 10mm figures. There's also no doubt that the appearance of the Eureka line has raised interest in the period overall, and proven it can succeed - I doubt Eureka would be sinking so much time and money into a line that was losing them money!
What remains, then, is finding a way to make the project sustainable for long-term development, since we are talking about a range here, rather than just a few one-offs. In a situation where Pendraken is already trying to produce and maintain several other lines, and where the sculptors are being tempted by other work, I think the financial commitment has to be solid - i.e. Pendraken has to be able to approach the sculptor and be confident that it can support some long-term work. I know Pendraken has said that they wouldn't want to take money up-front, but I do think that some combination of "sponsorship" by a small number of individuals who understand the situation, supported by pre- or pledge orders by others could work.
In large terms, we are probably talking about two-dozen packs per nationality, perhaps eventually three-dozen. The question then becomes one of Pendraken figuring out how much it needs up-front and in terms of commitments to "book" that time from the sculptor. If the sculptor is someone who isn't working full-time for Pendraken anyway (like Clib), then it's a win-win situation all around, as no time is taken away from other lines.
Of course, another way to look into this would be the possibility of building on the upcoming "1809" range of French/Austrians and simply extending those ranges backwards in time to the earlier periods, as a second step to the initial Napoleonic releases. I'm not sure what long-term plans Pendraken has for that range or the sculptor in question (same fellow who is working on the new WWII Japanese?), but it would be a simple and viable way to cut down on the effort involved and increase the interest in the line.
Cheers,
Christopher
PS -
On a personal note, but one which I think might be echoed by many others, the announcement of Pendraken's upcoming Napoleonic range came at a time when I had almost given up on 10mm Napoleonics. To be frank, I was looking ahead to the Autumn, when my current ACW project will be more-or-less wrapped up, and was going to decide between the new 28mm Eureka French Rev line and 6mm Adler. Without going into detail (which we all know too well), I had simply grown too frustrated by the incomplete state, poor quality, or high prices of most of the current lines. Obviously, the Pendraken announcement has made me re-think all of this, and I'm eagerly awaiting both the initial (hopefully fairly complete) release and any news of further commitments to expand the range beyond that. The thing about Napoleonics is that it's a long-term period, that you are literally committing years and usually thousands of figures to. It's been great seeing Pendraken becoming more active and making a real effort to act on fan interest, so let's hope that the interaction will continue to the benefit of both.
C
Thanks for all the input, I'll have a chat with Dave about the things mentioned. Again though, the main problem is still the lack of time/designers. Our main designer is doing the 1809 stuff, which is going to be a pretty hefty range that is going to take us through to early 2011 (Incidentally, he's starting with the French and Austrians).
The designer who was interested in doing the Rev. stuff has a couple of things already in progress for us, one fairly large, and a couple of bits to finish off other ranges. But his time is limited as he does a lot of work for other people. He asked us a while back to reserve this range for him, so we're not going to go back on that agreement.
Like I say, I'll talk with Dave about this, but I think if we decided to try this method, we'd want to do it on a much smaller scale first, to iron out any potential problems.
Fair enough - I don't think anyone has a problem with Clib having "dibs" on the French Rev line. Even just a general "we're going to hold his feet to the fire to finish the current ranges in 2011 and then it's next up" would be welcome news.
Cheers,
Christopher
PS - am I allowed to tempt him with the GNW while he finished the LoA though? ;)
I would be very supportive of an improvement and expansion of the The French Revolution line of figures. Horse and artillery should be included in the plans.
Quote from: CATenWolde on 18 June 2010, 01:58:30 PM
Fair enough - I don't think anyone has a problem with Clib having "dibs" on the French Rev line. Even just a general "we're going to hold his feet to the fire to finish the current ranges in 2011 and then it's next up" would be welcome news.
PS - am I allowed to tempt him with the GNW while he finished the LoA though? ;)
No tempting! ;D
I'll have a chat with Clib when I get chance and see what he's got planned for other people and where this would fit in.
New 10mm Napoleonics would be most welcome. ;D
Yeah, I would go for the Napoleonic revolutionary range! Sounds great!
I can not wait til the Rev range is finally expaned. However, the current minis available can work if we had some cavalry and artillery + crews for the range. Maybe getting those done first then start on the big list would help jump start the excitement of the range getting new minis.
Also, the 1809 range just cant get here fast enough :P
I know that Pendraken's ever expanding ranges is awesome and congrats to Dave and the "boys" for the continued growth!
Oh and Happy 100th Subscriber!
Keep 'em coming!
Ok lots of people have read this thread! There has to be more people that would like to comment either with or against this proposal!
;)
William
I would also support a high quality range for the French Revolution, not only French - Austrian and Piemontese - but in the end also Prussia, Russia, Britain and the Armée d'Orient.
W Keyser's list will be a good starting point. In case Clibenarium is sculpting the range the quality should be good.
In the end however we would need at least an agreement when the range should take off - earlier or later than 2011?
Ca ira - hopefully
Hi Guys
New on the Forum.
The new Napoleonics. I went to Dave about 18 Months ago and asked if he was going to finish his Naps as they were missing a lot from them. I said to him that I was looking to do Wagram and needed lots of figures to do the complete Armies for both sides (I think it is 17 Army Corps for both sides) and he asked me for a list of what figures I wanted and how many. I think the first quote to Dave was 20.000 figures but I now think that is on the low side. I gave Dave my list last year and the Designer is slowly working thro the list. I'm looking forward to see some of the Figures as I have asked for French, Austrian and all the Rhine troops at Wagram including 1806-9 Saxons and Sappers. I would also like to see some 1797-1800 Rev figures done as well for me to a very small Army later. :P ;D 8)
Well, nothing like aiming big! :o
And here I was thinking my 4-5k of Zulus was impressive ...
But that's what great about the smaller scales and Napoleonics - you can reasonably base your units at around 1:10 ratios (or so), fit in multiple ranks, and have a beautiful sense of mass. It's also good to see Dave responding to demand, and I'm sure we can put together similar enough interest in the early period to justify its addition. You might "only" have 1/3 or 1/4 of the total number of troops in most battles compared to the later monsters, but that's still several thousand figures per side.
Cheers,
Christopher
PS - hmm ... isn't there some reasonable speculation that Marmont's Army of Dalmatia may still have been organized and uniformed in the old style, due to its remote posting? I would hate to see your list miss a viable option if there were really troops in bicorne on the field ... (insert cherubic smile and innocent whistling)
I suppose its time for me to come in on this thread. I'm the designer Leon alluded to. In fact I have already done some Austrians as test figures a while ago. Actually a big thank you is due to Von Winterfelt for all the detailed information he's helped me with.
This is a project that I've discussed with a number of people in this thread on and off over the last few years, Christopher probably most of all. Its something I do have a growing interest in, but as Leon points out my design time has been limited recently, mainly because I've been working hard on the 28mm projects that pay the bills (or more accurately the numerous problems that arise in those projects that derail the paying of bills).
Realistically the project would never get off the ground if treated like the AWI or LoA ranges which are basically limited to my free time, i.e. I have to work in my freetime to do them! That's why they've been a bit slow.
To be frank, for anthing to be done on a realistic timescale, the work would have to be able to compete with my 28mm work in terms of costs, and thats not cheap. Up to now my 10mm work has been on a semi hobby basis (which is why it has been sporadic) Whether this is viable I don't know, since its not been tried.
Sponsorship has been mooted a few times, but its not a straightforward thing. As mentioned Pendraken are slightly wary of it as a concept as it presents a risk for both the sponsors and the company. Everyone has a potentially different view of what the line should consist of, and if people are paying for sponsorship they may have robust views on what it should contain. Another issue is scope; what could be limited to the Italian campaign could also be streched out to Egypt; thats an awful lot of figures, and too ambitious for the genisis of a project. Giving such a big commitment would be foolhardy at this point.
I hope that doesn't sound too negative, I think that its best to talk about the potential pitfalls openly and early on.
Hi Gareth
Well the problem with comparing the 28mm costs and 10mm is that in many ways it is apples and oranges. You get more per figure for sculpting a 28mm fig and the manufacture gets more profit per 28mm than 10mm but in the long run it is not quite that simple. As others have said 10mm is a mass scale, gamers buy lots of figures and the end profit might not be the same but I believe that it is close. I think if you look at gamers purchasing trends it is more about the number of figures that can fit on the table, which often determines the total number of figs purchased for any specific period. So sculpting a limited range of 28mm figs for a public that will not buy that many is not the same as a 10mm figs which are more akin to a commodity and people buy en-mass. Of course this applies mostly to the manufacturer costs and profits. Also without question this depends on the actual range!
So for you as a sculptor you make more money per hour sculpting 28mm than 10mm so the issue is perhaps for the manufacture to look at the problem differently. Look at is an overall project with lots of figures that must be done in order to complete a range or at least to get it to the point where it becomes a viable purchase for gamers. As I have said before the vast majority of gamers are not going to buy into a line of figures unless they are complete. Take a look at GHQs Nappy range I would have bought hundreds if they had made it complete even just for the 1815 campaign as it is I have not bought one pack. But I have forked out hundreds of pounds for Dave’s SYW range which is very complete, and I am still planning more purchases. It would be interesting to know how the sales of the various ranges Dave has, changes as it becomes more complete!
The real issue is how much is the manufacturer willing to commit to a range that if it was something like the Italian campaign would have a very open field, not many competitors in any scale. As to the number of figs yes you have to do a large amount for the Italian campaign but the range has to be complete to get the most profit out of it.
So in the end my suggestion about subscription is about sharing the dangers with the manufacturer, in my case and in a number of others that I know we would be willing to pay upfront hundreds of pounds inorder to get a complete range done. I trust Dave and I feel his long standing in the gaming industry makes him a safe bet at least for me.
So Gareth if you are saying that there is not enough money for you to switch from 28mm to 10mm then perhaps Dave should look around for other talent. I fully understand that there is more profit in sculpting 28mm figs. I understand your desire to make money and the fact that the 10mm is a “hobby†for you becomes an issue in committing to the range. The real question is would you like a long term commitment to work on something like the Italian Campaign. Which would could be a year long project. Which could then expand to other periods within the era, including early Russian, British, and Prussians? So setting aside a certain amount of time each week for a year is for a freelancer a good prospect!
The benefit to Dave of a dozen or so gamers willing to pay upfront and another dozen or so to pledge support (though sending credit card numbers which would be charged only as figs became available) seems to be a no brainer. Dave does not have to take a great risk or tie up capital in an expanding range, but gets the benefit of being able to create a complete range in a short amount of time with already committed customers.
In my mind a win win situation for Dave.
William
Greetings from (sunny at last!) Helsinki,
It's good to hear from Clib, and I agree that we have to deal with this as a practical problem - how do we gather enough resources (both at the start and in terms of future interest to sustain development) to make this a worthwhile expenditure of time for everyone? And "everyone" should include everyone along the line - the sculptor has to justify it in terms of a job, Pendraken in terms of developing the business, and the gamers have to justify their hobby budgets and time too... "Yes honey, the ACW figures are blue with kepis, and the Empire figures are blue with shakos, but *these* figures are blue with bicornes!" ;)
The relationship between the sculptor and Pendraken isn't one we want to intrude into, but essentially we need realistic, practical guidance on what would be needed to start, sustain, and develop the line. I don't think anyone should be shy about saying what is needed, and I'm optimistic that people would be surprised by the amount of concrete commitments available. For starters I don't even think we need exact details. We know that each "side" will be a couple dozen packs, and that each pack will have a few poses, so we should be thinking about the project in gross terms such as "how much support and time is needed to justify 50 figures? 100 figures?"
In terms of the bigger picture (developing Pendraken Napoleonics) it's probably better to view this as a project that extends the 1809 project back into the Glory Years, rather than starts at 1792 and somehow joins in the middle. Sure, they may be different sculptors, but realistically there is a continuum of gaming for those nationalities that could be greatly expanded by the addition of the earlier French uniforms, with the other earlier uniforms added on as opponents just as is always done.
As I said, I'm glad to see the continued interest all around, and the discussion continuing.
Cheers,
Christopher
Clibenarium would be my sculptor of choice - he knows his stuff and also is good in research.
I don't want a French Revolutionary Range on the cheap - but instead first class, the best I could get.
An option would be to ask Clibenarium what a master would cost in 10 mm - to make it attractive for him to sculpt full time in that scale.
Instead of subscribing the range we could pay for the masters - or part of the masters.
Isn't TDQ designs doing such a thing?
Hi
I would also like Gareth to be the sculptor, however, if he can not commit to the time needed or the time frame that I think is also needed say 12-18 months for at least 90% of this range then perhaps Pendraken could use another sculptor to do it, the 1870 range is very nice and I dont think Gareth did that but I might be mistaken.
William
William
Think the payment/part payment for the masters is an excellent idea. Although I do not know the cost of masters, it may be that the commitment per indivudual customer per master may not be too great. Given that the capital outlay is reduced for Dave, a further incentive for potential customers may be a small discount on subsequent purchases; volume related(?). I would imagine contributors would also have to waive any rights over the masters.
Would be interested to see if anyone else sees this as a possible way forward.
Chad
It is no problem to waive rights, see how TQD - did it - you sponsor the master and get x amount of cast figures - the producer - here Pendraken - will hold the rights on the masters.
Having the customers paying for the masters has been brought up at various times over the years and something we've always said 'No' to. It's just not worth the risks/problems/hassle involved with us taking money from people, then them having to waive any rights to the masters, and then working out who's owed what, etc. I'm sure people will have contrasting arguments on that front, but it's not something we'd be interested in doing.
I think the next thing to do is for us to talk with Clib about what kind of budget would make it more viable for him as a full-time project, and how that matches up with what we can realistically afford.
Fair enough. Just keep in mind that there are options to alleviate some of the up-front financial concerns through member support of some sort, however you want to organize it.
Hi Leon
Cost is the main problem with any new range but as this range 1792-1815 the scope for a lot of sales over a long time it may be worth the outlay on this range.
From the comments made you may have some people already wanting some good size Armies when you get the range released. I am looking forward to seeing how far you will take this range.
The 1809 range is a very good starting point as it will for the most part cover to 1815 with a few more French bits added and the Austrians almost done as well. You will also have the 1806 Saxons done as they are in the same Unifrom in 1809 so that bit is done. Most of the other Rhine Armies are in French or Bavarian Unifroms, so you only need British, Russian and Prussian up to 1815 then to work 1792 to 1808.
Some masters you will be able to use as multi codes as they will cover more that one Nation and that will cut your costs down.
One thing that is in my mind is that the same designer does all the masters 1792-1815 or figures may look out of sorts as different designers make figures different sizes around the waist and height (eye line or top of head) and that can look bad.
Andy
The Saxons of 1809 and those of 1806 are by no means identical - in 1806 they did wear the Kittel - had a hip pack, the sabre was carried on the waist
belt - in 1809 they did wear the coats - hooked down as far as possible to create the illusion of straight lapels and also had a pack and the back, like the French infantry and also cross belts.
Here 1806 as they should look like :
(http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/6458/sachsen1806kittelg.jpg)
and in 1809
(http://img716.imageshack.us/img716/120/schsischeinfanterie1809.jpg)
In case you like to see more details to produce Saxons fitting for 1809 let me know.
Hi Von Winterfeldt
I think that the Saxons, Prussians and Peidmontese in 10mm are all essentially the same for the early period. The backpack on the hip the bicorn and longer coat all all just about the same. That is why the Peidmontese in the proposed range are there, they cover the Italians and then can be expanded to cover the Prussians and Saxons of the early period, with a quick head swap they can be made into the 1794 Prussians for Valmy with that silly small bicorn/hat.
William
Hi Leon
Any comments from the "management"? I would really like to know what you guys see as the future for this project and most importantly an estimate of a time line if there is a decision to go ahead with this.
I know that I like most other gamers out there, are really quite fickle and will switch periods in a heart beat and don’t have much patience for waiting for our toys!!!! So it would be nice keep the momentum up if there is a chance of you guys going forward with this in the near future.
Thanks
William
We're currently having a chat about a few things, but we really don't have the spare design funds available for a project this size at this time, and we're not keen on the idea of taking anyone's money up front. The way I would see things going, would be to start with the 1809 stuff which is currently being sculpted, then once the bulk of that is complete, we can start to work out from there, taking in things like the Revolutionary period, the War of 1812, Indian Mutiny, etc, etc.
I don't mean to disappoint anyone, and the range will be done at some point, but it's best to be straight with people from the start, so that everyone knows where we are.
Boy that is disappointing! Here I thought we had a way of dealing with lack of funds so that you could ignore or at least minimize that aspect. I still don’t see why you are not willing to do what lots of others companies are doing and obviously there are a lot of people out there willing to pay upfront for range based on the French Revolution. Still can not get my head around your unwillingness to take peoples money even when they say take it. Oh well I guess 2020 we might have a range.
William
Quoteobviously there are a lot of people out there willing to pay upfront for range based on the French Revolution
Hmm - not sure that 9 expressions of interest here count as "a lot of people" - have a quick look at the other requests & the numbers supporting some of those...
I think Leon's point about lack of designers & time are important: Pendraken cover an enormous range & scope: to tie up sculpting time into one (fairly niche I would suggest) range doesn't make commercial sense IMHO: in doing so it prohibits a wider cast of the net across ranges which will appeal to more customers, thereby generating more income. The releases over the last few months have been pretty broad - it would be insane for a company to 'pull' this scope & focus its time (limited as it as given that this is not a full-time enterprise for the company) onto a single range.
They've also been very clear on their reasons for not wanting to take money up-front / have designs commissioned: if this was my company, I'd employ the same model for exactly the same reasons. I'd also note that, while the customer may always think they're right, the company & its business would be mine: I take responsibility for making decisions that make strategic sense to me and that enable me to retain control over the direction of my business. It also avoids disappointment - was it Wargames Factory (I think?) who opened the floodgates to that complete "you name it & we'll make it in plastic" debacle where they had loads of suggestions & almost nothing was made and the quality was disappointing in the end I think to a lot of people. Not a good way to build a customer-base.
I hope this makes sense - just my thoughts on understanding a business decision.
I wouldn't declare the idea yet; discussions are ongoing, plus the discussion in this thread is interesting.
As Clib and Leon have said discussions are ongoing.
Before posting in the New Releases/Requests board I'd encourage everybody to read this post first http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=133.0 (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=133.0).
Quote from: Wkeyser on 26 June 2010, 06:42:57 AM
Boy that is disappointing! Here I thought we had a way of dealing with lack of funds so that you could ignore or at least minimize that aspect. I still don’t see why you are not willing to do what lots of others companies are doing and obviously there are a lot of people out there willing to pay upfront for range based on the French Revolution. Still can not get my head around your unwillingness to take peoples money even when they say take it. Oh well I guess 2020 we might have a range.
William
It's not just the money issue, as I've already said. You're looking at a range needing about 400 different figures or poses, which is a lot of time needed from a designer, aside from the fact that that would be our entire annual design budget gone, plus some. We're are still talking with Clib about stuff, but I'm not going to say to everyone 'Yeah, we'll have it done by X' because that wouldn't be realistic.
Another thing to consider, as Nik pointed out, is that putting everything into the FR would mean we couldn't afford to have anything else designed for over a year, putting other designers out of work, and disappointing a huge amount of other customers.
With the coming July releases, we'll have had nearly 200 new items this year. I haven't seen another company come close to that. We're taking people's feedback on board and getting things designed around them, but we really only have the time/budget for one big project at a time, and we've already got a couple going.
If this project goes ahead, then it has to be in the best interests of everyone, and we can continue to keep chatting about it.
I think nobody demanded that 400 masters should be produced within one year - quite a superhuman effort.
In my view - a comprehensive high quality French Revolutionary range would sell quite well.
Quote from: von Winterfeldt on 28 June 2010, 01:09:01 PM
I think nobody demanded that 400 masters should be produced within one year - quite a superhuman effort.
In my view - a comprehensive high quality French Revolutionary range would sell quite well.
Oh no, I agree, it couldn't be produced in a year, my point was that it would require the majority of our design budget to produce a range of that size. And in your words, it would sell 'quite well', unfortunately I don't think 'very well'.
Talks are ongoing though, so we'll see what happens.
Glad to hear that talks are continuing! I think we all appreciate and understand the complexities of managing such a large collection of different lines.
As I mentioned above, looking at the project as an expansion of the French into the Glory Years, and then providing diverse opponents for them over time, is probably the most realistic way of fitting it into the overall scheme. Also, (according to my lists) the number of packs can easily be cut down to: French, 11 infantry, 4 cavalry; Austrian, 11 infantry, 5 cavalry, Piedmontese, 2 infantry. Both the French and Austrians would need another pair of artillerist packs, and the various artillery pieces (or none, depending on how well the 1809 line filled out the equipment), and some Generals, but that amounts to about max 40 packs total to establish the core, and many of those would be minor variants. The "Glory Years" French would undoubtedly be the biggest sellers, but providing the other unique opponents would help establish the Pendraken line as "one stop shopping" for the period.
Out of curiosity, let's imagine that the line sells at least as well as the League of Augsburg line (another interesting period on the periphery of better-known conflicts), and probably better than the French & Indian War line (20 packs). Would it sell as well as the AWI line, with its enormous pack count? I don't really have a good feeling for the popularity of the AWI, but the French Rev line might be considered a similar opportunity to establish Pendraken in a colorful niche period that could grow in popularity with the right figures available. How many people gamed (or even heard of!) the Carlist Wars before the Perry figures came out? At any rate, comparisons to those H&M lines might be the way to benchmark the situation.
Good luck with figuring it out ... and we are also looking forward to news of the Empire period Napoleonics range!
Cheers,
Christopher
Well, the AWI and LoA lines aren't that useful as comparators as they are being done primarily because I'm interested in the periods and I volunteered to do them; sculptor's interest counts for 1000 bonus points!
Christopher mentions the overlap between the revolution and the glory years. Bearing in mind I'm a neophyte to naps can you explain how much overlap there is; part of the behind the scenes discussion is the need for compatability between the two ranges, as two different sculptors would be at work.
Hi Clib,
I didn't know that about the AWI and LoA lines, but in any case maybe their rate of sales could help provide a benchmark for eventual rate of returns?
In terms of overlap (thinking off the top of my head), artillery equipment will be pretty universal, and also handily immune from differences in sculpting style. 1809 is really a watershed campaign - both the French and all of their enemies have adopted different uniforms than they had previously, although there are exceptions.
For the French, they used the entire spectrum of their gun types in 1809, so everything from the 4/6/8/12lb cannon and the howitzer types were in use and wouldn't have to be duplicated. At this scale limbers and caissons would also cross over. Early horse artillery were in the "mirliton" type shako and later horse artillery were in a true shako, but they might also be an acceptable overlap. Hussars would probably be another overlap, with differences so minor they would be acceptable in this scale. Dragoons had the same helmet in both periods, the main difference being much longer coat tails in the earlier uniform, but they might also be able to overlap. The Guard and Grenadier infantry types with their bearskins and longer tails are pretty universal to both periods. Generals would also cross over pretty well.
For the Austrians, there is actually a lot of overlap. Like the French, all of their gun types and equipment will cross over. Also, the "helmet" style infantry (in use along side the "shako" style infantry in 1809) actually goes back to 1800, as do the artillerists in bicorne, and the cavalry in helmet too. The Hussars are pretty universal, as are the uhlans, and Jaegers in Corsehut and Grenzers in kobluk. It's only when you go pre-1800 that the old-stule Austrian uniforms become necessary (although they were still in use in 1800) - but unfortunately it effects pretty much all regular infantry and cavalry and artillerists.
So, looking backwards so to speak, adding the "Glory Years" French would actually extend the playability of the 1809 Austrian range all the way back to the 1800 and 1805 campaigns, which is a pretty significant addition. Then, adding the earlier Austrian uniform covers everything earlier.
The Minor States also had uniform changes for the 1809 campaign, although the Bavarian "Rumford" style uniform is probably close enough to be universal, as are the Poles. Many minor states wore Prussian or Austrian style uniforms (like the Piedmontese), so working on them actually starts to fill out the Prussians. For instance, the Piedmontese essentially used Austrian uniforms for all other arms except line infantry, which could be covered by a couple of packs of infantry/command in Prussian style.
If you have a working list for the 1809 project I would be happy to sketch out a series of overlap lists, and perhaps break down the project into more manageable chunks. With the 1809 line already going, I think it might be pretty manageable.
Cheers,
Christopher
The AWI range is one of our most popular lines, really only behind the WW2, Fantasy and maybe SYW, although the SYW is selling very well at the moment. I'd expect the LofA to be a good seller as well judging by the interest we've had in it, but probably not up to AWI levels.
Quote from: CATenWolde on 28 June 2010, 06:33:51 PM
If you have a working list for the 1809 project I would be happy to sketch out a series of overlap lists, and perhaps break down the project into more manageable chunks. With the 1809 line already going, I think it might be pretty manageable.
I'll send you a PM.
That's actually great to hear about the AWI, and probably a good example of what a talented sculptor can do for an otherwise niche period that has been underdeveloped. The Pendraken AWI line has become one of the standard "go to" references on TMP and elsewhere that I have seen (much like the SYW line). I imagine there are a lot of people like me out there, who wouldn't have really thought of doing the period but are (or will be) pulled in because the line is too tempting.
I know that you have a dominant position in WWII, but the Fantasy surprises me! Are there that many Warmaster players still out there?
At any rate, considering how popular Napoleonics are, let's hope that the 1809 and "standard" Napoleonics do very well for you, even if a bit less than WWII. If the early period Napoleonics can achieve a status like the AWI, or even are just considered like the Minor States in WWII (i.e. part of the big picture that keeps people coming back), that might help gauge effort versus return.
Cheers,
Christopher
I'm expecting the 'standard' Naps to sell very well, it's the one major range that we've been missing for some time. We were originally looking to get those done, and then work outwards from there to fill in the other areas, but if we can find a method which suits everyone, then we'll see what happens.
There's always been a lot of demand for the Fantasy. When we first launched the range, many years ago, it was almost half of all our sales, and it seems to have had a bit of a resurgence this year, which is great. I think maybe we'd grown a bit stale in that area, as we hadn't released anything for it in years, but we've had a few things designed this year, with some more to come, and maybe that's put us back into the mix a bit.
There's some fascinating info & discussion in this thread 8)
Coolio to see the fantasy ranges as resurgent: for me, having been a long-time Pendraken fan but (so far) resisted the fantasy, I'm looking at them now - both to do some WM (I sold my WM armies - one of my big regrets really), BoFA and dungeoneering...
WW2 - no surprises there then: the PD range is *stunning* - I've got a *lot* of WW2 stuff and am forever wanting more...love it 8)
The AWI range is beautiful as is the SYW (which I'm working on at the moment) - at some point I'll get round to the AWI too (reading Mark Urban's "Fusiliers" at the moment - if you're doubtful about gaming the AWI, read this - guaranteed to make you drop cash on the line!)
Quote from: nikharwood on 28 June 2010, 09:48:09 PM
Coolio to see the fantasy ranges as resurgent: for me, having been a long-time Pendraken fan but (so far) resisted the fantasy, I'm looking at them now - both to do some WM (I sold my WM armies - one of my big regrets really), BoFA and dungeoneering...
WW2 - no surprises there then: the PD range is *stunning* - I've got a *lot* of WW2 stuff and am forever wanting more...love it 8)
WW2's the big boy now, so much so that Dave spends all his casting time doing 20th C. orders. Some good stuff coming in the July releases for the WW2 fans.
Be good to see you getting into the Fantasy as well Nik!
Mate - I've always been into fantasy :P
Oh - hang on - you were talking figures... ;) ;D 8)
Quote from: nikharwood on 29 June 2010, 06:29:40 PM
Mate - I've always been into fantasy :P
Oh - hang on - you were talking figures... ;) ;D 8)
You haven't seen the July Releases yet! We've got whips, chains, fluffy dice and some extra large tubs of Nutella!
;D What's that old saying?
Sticks & stones may break my bones...but whips & chains excite me. Or something. :P
Quote from: nikharwood on 29 June 2010, 06:32:26 PM
;D What's that old saying?
Sticks & stones may break my bones...but whips & chains excite me. Or something. :P
:-X
:D
The glory years are actually only 1805 and 1806 - then at 1809 - there is already a decline, but it is the last campaign Napoleon won.
There seems to be quite a lot of interest in the 1805 / 06 campaigns and notably the Russian, Prussian and Austrian Armies for that.
As to the French Revolution versus 1809 I cannot see a big overlap other than for example Austrian infantry of 1800 / 01 with helmets and back packs - which only marginally showed up in the French revolutionary wars at the end of it.
In my view the French Revolutionary period suffers precisely from that aspect of not being taken seriously and that up so far no high quality and extenisve range of figures exists.
Quote from: von Winterfeldt on 30 June 2010, 07:27:37 AM
The glory years are actually only 1805 and 1806 - then at 1809 - there is already a decline, but it is the last campaign Napoleon won.
There seems to be quite a lot of interest in the 1805 / 06 campaigns and notably the Russian, Prussian and Austrian Armies for that.
As to the French Revolution versus 1809 I cannot see a big overlap other than for example Austrian infantry of 1800 / 01 with helmets and back packs - which only marginally showed up in the French revolutionary wars at the end of it.
In my view the French Revolutionary period suffers precisely from that aspect of not being taken seriously and that up so far no high quality and extenisve range of figures exists.
I agree that the Revolutionary period suffers from both high quality and extensive range being available. I like the early period but am holding off building til the range is more complete, but once it is then look out sister!
Finish up those Fantasy releases so Nik can get some relief :P He plays solo for crying out loud!!! ;D
QuoteFinish up those Fantasy releases so Nik can get some relief :P He plays solo for crying out loud!!! ;D
Nothing wrong with that - I'm much more likely to win...not to mention the obligatory "playing-with-myself-and-loving-it" jokes ;D
LOL - Nik!!!
BTW - your pictures of your painted minis are awesome :o
Keep up the great work and I dont remember did you or did you not purchase the Dungeon set? If so, have you been playing with Steve's Dungeon World rules?
Quote from: Blaker on 01 July 2010, 01:47:34 PM
LOL - Nik!!!
BTW - your pictures of your painted minis are awesome :o
Keep up the great work and I dont remember did you or did you not purchase the Dungeon set? If so, have you been playing with Steve's Dungeon World rules?
Thank you :-[
I've not picked up the Dungeon set yet - although the new package will be on my wishlist...I've got a couple of other projects on the go, but work is manic at the moment & I'm off my pace really...the distraction of the World Cup has contributed to this as well of course 8)
I will be having a bash with Steve's rules - and others...I still retain a fondness for D&D and B2 - Keep on the Borderlands, anyone? Ah...nostalgia ;D