Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Non-Wargaming Discussion => Chat & News => Topic started by: Luddite on 16 July 2013, 09:20:20 AM

Title: Perfect battle?
Post by: Luddite on 16 July 2013, 09:20:20 AM
Before WWI there was a strong belief in the 'glory of war'; that war could be glorious, even artistic.  The mechanisation of killing that came to fruition across No Man's Land put an end to those notions.

However, it occurs to me that, while not glorious, a dispassionate view can see some battles were 'perfect', or near-perfect.

What do I mean?  I mean that when we study some battles they are a perfect model for their form.  So I thought it might be interesting to discuss our thoughts on which battles in history might be thought of as 'perfect' and why.

Because the frictions change with technology and tactics, I guess we'll need to split these into period/genre, so I'll put forwards a few ideas.




Battle of Nasby (England 14 June 1645)
Proposed: Perfect example of pike & shot battle
Reason:  Both sides arrayed in the established order for the time, with well matched infantry centre and two well matched cavalry wings.  The battle proceeded according to the tactical doctrines of the time and in both cases, the right cavalry flanks were victorious; the Royalists in an uncontrolled charge that left the field in pursuit, and the Parliamentarians in a disciplined charge that was able to turn in for a decisive second charge on the infantry centre.
The outcome was also significant for the ending of the war.

Tet Offensive (Vietnam 30 January 1968)
Proposed:  Perfect example of surprise attack
Reason:  The US/ARVN forces were totally unprepared and taken completely by surprise by a massive, country-wide series of attacks by the Communist forces of the VC and NVA.  After the initial assaults, the US/ARVN were able to quickly reorganise and counter attack resulting in their tactical victory.  However, the surprise attack won perhaps the most spectacular strategic success in military history.  As a direct result, US policy changed from trying the 'win the war', to 'stabilising the theatre ahead of a ceasefire'.  The surprise attack struck not at the US/ARVN troops on the ground, but into the Oval Office and through TV, into the homes of every American.  As surprise attacks go, does it get better?

Battle of Cannae (Italy 2 August 216BC)
Proposed:  Perfect example of a double envelopment
Reason:  There are a good few examples of this type of battle, even as late as the 19thC British engagements with the Zulus, but I'd suggest that Cannae is the perfect example of the form.  To replicate and enhance their successful tactics at Trebia, the Romans deployed their superior numbers more deeply, giving the Carthaginians a chance to enact the classic double envelopment tactic.  Throughout the battle Hannibal's troops performed perfectly against the Romans.


So what do you reckon?

Perfect ambush?
Perfect sea battle?
Perfect Ancients battle?
Perfect Napoleonic battle?
Perfect tank battle?
Etc.
Title: Re: Perfect battle?
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 16 July 2013, 11:02:40 AM
Perfect Ambush at sea battle: North Cape Scharnhorst tempted out of her fjord by a nice juicy convoy, ambushed by Duke of York and escorts. 

Perfect Ancients: First Cremona, two evenly balanced legionary forces square off. Only our done by second Cremona, six months later.

Title: Re: Perfect battle?
Post by: Ithoriel on 16 July 2013, 11:28:29 AM
Perfect Tank Battle - Prokhorovka surely. Biggest ever tank battle to date (possibly, given the way warfare is progressing, biggest there will ever be), fairly evenly matched forces with quantity balanced by quality, decisive result.
Title: Re: Perfect battle?
Post by: ronan on 16 July 2013, 04:55:02 PM
Quote from: Luddite on 16 July 2013, 09:20:20 AM
(...)
Tet Offensive (Vietnam 30 January 1968)(...)
the most spectacular strategic success in military history. 
(...)

mmmh.. I think the Fall Gelb in 1940 ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_Gelb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fall_Gelb) was even more strategic, imho.  :-\
For me the perfect battle should be the one were I get the surprise, and overrun the ennemy.  :d

Or I pick up Austerlitz.
Title: Re: Perfect battle?
Post by: fsn on 16 July 2013, 05:09:59 PM
Leipzig 1813
Proposed: Perfect example of a defensive battle.
Reason. Horse and musket, very colourful. Reasoanbly successful example of the extraction of an inferior force in from on a vastly superior one.

Bannockburn 1314.
Proposed. Perfect result.
Title: Re: Perfect battle?
Post by: Hertsblue on 16 July 2013, 09:24:24 PM
Leuthen - 5th December 1757

Proposed: Perfect outflanking attack.

Frederick the Great used a small cavalry force to keep the much larger Austrian army concentrating to their front. Meanwhile, using pre-scouted dead ground, he marched the bulk of his army around the enemy's left flank and rolled them up with the perfect oblique attack. One of the textbook battles of all history.
Title: Re: Perfect battle?
Post by: Last Hussar on 14 September 2013, 11:08:38 AM
Orne Bridges 00:16 6th June 1944

Text book Airborne Company attack and hold operation.
Title: Re: Perfect battle?
Post by: FierceKitty on 14 September 2013, 11:34:53 AM
Okehazama. Any battle where one knocks over 12-1 odds a virtually identical army gets its gold star on the big wall.
Title: Re: Perfect battle?
Post by: Ithoriel on 14 September 2013, 11:49:22 AM
Quote from: FierceKitty on 14 September 2013, 11:34:53 AM
Okehazama. Any battle where one knocks over 12-1 odds a virtually identical army gets its gold star on the big wall.

25,000 enemy to your 1,500? Hit him from behind, in the rain, while he's drunk, looking the other way and convinced you're defending a position miles away .... works for me :-)

Good call, I'd forgotten all about Okehazama
Title: Re: Perfect battle?
Post by: Hertsblue on 14 September 2013, 10:27:33 PM
Quote from: FierceKitty on 14 September 2013, 11:34:53 AM
Okehazama. Any battle where one knocks over 12-1 odds a virtually identical army gets its gold star on the big wall.

Hey, FK. Welcome back! We've missed you.  :-bd :-bd :-bd
Title: Re: Perfect battle?
Post by: FierceKitty on 15 September 2013, 03:48:25 AM
And Ottombo. It's got Aztecs - automatic double first.
Title: Re: Perfect battle?
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 15 September 2013, 05:32:58 AM
FierceKitty don't know that one at all, any details?

Welcome back sir!
Title: Re: Perfect battle?
Post by: mollinary on 15 September 2013, 06:33:24 AM
FK. Great to see you post again, I was getting really worried.   8)

Mollinary
Title: Re: Perfect battle?
Post by: fsn on 15 September 2013, 08:24:31 AM
Nice to see you active again, Mr Kitty.