Hi all,
While researching the best mix for my Bolt Action Brits Nosher mentioned another set of WW2 skirmish rules that are coming out later this year, 'Chain of Command' from Too Fat Lardies. They seemed to be generating some buzz so I decided to check them out. I noticed they'd done a set of videos explaining the rules and a play through of a game so I've included them all on my blog with my thoughts on the rules (http://ferbsfightingforces.blogspot.co.uk/2013/06/first-look-chain-of-command-by-too-fat.html).
Ferb
QuoteBut I have a number of questions, such as do the rules include scenarios; are there national differences for the various troop types; is there a campaign structure; do the rules include comprehensive army lists or are we going to have to buy supplements etc. Overall the rules seem to have some interesting ideas and offer a different tactical challenge to Bolt Action. Not sure if I'll buy a set, it depends on the price, but worth another look once they come out, which is expected to be sometime in August.
Hi Ferb,
a few answers to some of the above:
- I believe there are scenarios.
- There are different national characteristics.
- No idea on campaign, but fairly easy to sort out I would have thought.
- There are lists for Germans, Brits, Russians and Japaneses, with possibly Italians but can't remember to be sure. The Germans for example include Panzergrenadiers, the Brits Paras and Commandos. These may change when the final draft is completed.
- Price is likely to be £20-£22.
All of the above from chatting to Rich at the Wyvern Wargames TFL day.
I am hoping they have a game of this on demo/participation when they come to Belfast
@ Steve J - Thanks for the info.
No problem Ferb. I also forgot to mention the Americans are also included.
Quote from: Steve J on 17 June 2013, 10:51:58 AM
No problem Ferb. I also forgot to mention the Americans are also included.
They're even late in arriving in this thread... ;)
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Wulf on 17 June 2013, 02:02:30 PM
They're even late in arriving in this thread... ;)
No worries, they'll soon start their own thread about how they won the Battle of Britain and successfully defended Stalingrad all on their own.
Are you trying tell me that bon jovi didnt capture the enigma machine :o :o
The Lardie boys are running a live day of action of the CoC rules via their Blog. Well worth a visit IMHO. It's been good so far...
http://toofatlardies.co.uk/blog/?p=1505
Can't help thinking of:
"You know what the chain of command is? It's the chain I go get and beat you with 'til ya understand who's in ruttin' command here." - Jayne Cobb, "Firefly - The TrainJob"
The more I see of these rules the more I like them.
I'm really liking the look of these rules.
My first intention is to pair them with the new Perry 8th Army figures - but I am wondering from seeing the battle reports, whether they will actually work quite well with multi-based 10mm (of which I have a small vast amount).
Possibly Fred, as long as you have a way of recording casualties etc.
I play a lot of TFL's IABSM with 10mm figures on stands and that works fine. I know it's company level rather than platoon, but it's still designed for single figures, with individual casualty removal. I use really little dice to keep a track of casualties. I usually use two 3-4 man stands to represent a 8-man section and remove a stand after 4 kills.
The main worry I have over these rules, and those like them, is the dependence on terrain, and plenty of it. The pictures are gorgeous, but there's no way I could replicate that on my table. And from the narrative, it sounds like the game make a lot of use of the terrain. It would be a very different game with sparse terrain...
I wonder that too, especially as we are thinking of doing North Africa...
Terrain will naturally make a big difference, but then it did in reality (stating the bleedin obvious I know), so Holland '45, Western Desert '41 or Russian Steppe will present their own challenges. Much more tactical movement getting benefit from dips and bumps in the ground), smoke etc will come to the fore I would imagine. But then these challenges are faced in say BKCII or even Rules of Engagement, an almost identical Platoon level skirmish game.
It sounds and looks like you need the same sort of terrain as Crossfire
While I don't know Crossfire, comments on that on BoardGameGeek seem to confirm the need for dense terrain. I agree, it does sound from that report like movement is judged by terrain. There seems to be no mention of distances.
Someone needs some terrain making ;)
(http://data7.blog.de/media/330/6032330_722f8744cb_m.jpeg)
(http://data7.blog.de/media/300/6030300_d212959fb6_m.jpeg)
(http://data6.blog.de/media/936/5198936_cb332c8f3b_m.jpg)
(http://data6.blog.de/media/452/4134452_78e9844395_m.jpg)
(http://data5.blog.de/media/865/3643865_d234ca2337_m.jpg)
(http://data5.blog.de/media/252/3491252_e365d5b1ae_m.jpg)
I take commissions :D
Cheers,
Craig
Tiny Terrain Models
Quote from: Wulf on 20 June 2013, 09:22:54 PM
While I don't know Crossfire, comments on that on BoardGameGeek seem to confirm the need for dense terrain. I agree, it does sound from that report like movement is judged by terrain. There seems to be no mention of distances.
The videos explaining the game mention measured movement with dice rolls to determine how for.
Sunjester - I think it will be more like TW&T, with a separate gun group. As it happens mine are originally based for PBI, 3 bases in a section - 1 LMG, and 2 with 7 figures between them, so anyone playing 10mm will need to remember that. No reason the Rifle Group can't be 7 men/2 bases, with a die counting down (and maybe a base removed once at 1/2, like we do for TW&T)
As we have plenty of 20mm, its not going to be a problem! This could be our September game...
And before you say anything about not having a June game yet - my dining room table is covered in stuff from Kitchen cabinets, and B&Q don't deliver the new ones for 3 weeks!
Quote from: Last Hussar on 21 June 2013, 01:28:48 AM
As we have plenty of 20mm, its not going to be a problem! This could be our September game...
And before you say anything about not having a June game yet - my dining room table is covered in stuff from Kitchen cabinets, and B&Q don't deliver the new ones for 3 weeks!
It's a shame that you have to put the "real world" over the more important things in life, like beer and wargaming! :P ;D
:(
Do you know how many 10 mil I could have got for the cost of a kitchen! Over 7800 infantry. I could have Nic buy and paint about 900! They sneaked in a £10 cutlery draw into the order. I could have bought one in B&M for a couple of quid. The dishwasher that we can now fit better be worth it
Quote from: Wulf on 20 June 2013, 07:08:59 PM
The main worry I have over these rules, and those like them, is the dependence on terrain, and plenty of it. The pictures are gorgeous, but there's no way I could replicate that on my table. And from the narrative, it sounds like the game make a lot of use of the terrain. It would be a very different game with sparse terrain...
Are there any sets of WW2 rules where terrain doesn't play an important role, especially at a skirmish level?
After all no battlefields were completely flat, even the Libyan desert. Patches of rocks or scrub, wadis, rises and folds in the ground, there was a lot of stuff to get in the way, especially at this sort of level.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 21 June 2013, 01:11:11 PM
:(
Do you know how many 10 mil I could have got for the cost of a kitchen! Over 7800 infantry. I could have Nic buy and paint about 900! They sneaked in a £10 cutlery draw into the order. I could have bought one in B&M for a couple of quid. The dishwasher that we can now fit better be worth it
The first time you mentioned this to me you said you were taking a week off to "do some painting" and maybe replace a few cupboard doors. How did this get to a whole new kitchen? :o
More importantly doesn't she realise yet you have a metal habit than needs feeding? ;)
Quote from: sunjester on 21 June 2013, 01:11:52 PM
Are there any sets of WW2 rules where terrain doesn't play an important role, especially at a skirmish level?
After all no battlefields were completely flat, even the Libyan desert. Patches of rocks or scrub, wadis, rises and folds in the ground, there was a lot of stuff to get in the way, especially at this sort of level.
Yes, but there's a difference between miniature troops using cover and game rules using it. The Russian Steppe is far less 'populated' with features than Normandy - would troops move further?
However, fred suggests that movement is measured in some way by distance, so it's less of a concern.
At higher levels you can say "That area is ...." but at low/skirmish level it is importany. In 20mm TW&T is virtually at figure scale. SUre there are fields that would have no terrain in a yard of table, but do you really want to advance across it? Go for a drive in the country, pass through a village, and you will see how dense even modern fields can be. At this level cover really counts in leaders plans.
Hi
Good news, a release date has been announced for these rules of 21st August. Having played them (with Rich of Too Fat Lardies umpiring) I can thoroughly recommend them and can confirm they ate suitable for 10mm.
Keep your eyes on the Too Fat Lardies Blog for more info,
Cheers,
Craig
Tiny Terrain Models
Noticed that this morning Craig.
I missed out when they came to our club to run a demo however i am very reliably informed that these rules are superb and I will be making a purchase!
For those of you worried that you will need lots of terrain take a look at this from the TFL website (http://toofatlardies.co.uk/blog/?p=1591). They play a game without any terrain at all!
I'm looking forward to these - they look very clever, without being gamey.
For those of you who are interested the pre-order bundes for Chain of Command have just been listed on the TFL website.
http://toofatlardies.co.uk/index.php?main_page=products_new&zenid=01b62ff956a72f0352afeed3c4c57fcf
Ive ordered the rules only bundle as I will be playing in 15mm and to be frank will use existing markers and dice......plus some recently home-made for the puropse jump off markers :D
Best regards,
Craig
Tiny Terrain Models
My orders in - same bundle.
In time honoured tradition of my White Rose County forefathers, I have taken the cheapest possible route and will make do with other markers I have or will scratch build something appropriate :)
Haven't been looking forward to a set of rules like this since BKC came out :-bd
Give us a score out of ten for this one lads, I may be tempted.
Pros & cons?
Same for me, the rules only bundle. I will choose the pdf. rather than the tablet option, as the latter is of no interest to me. Give me hard copies anytime. I too will be going down the 15mm as well as the 10mm route.
@ Mad Lemmey: I'd check out the TFL Blog as they have plenty of examples of the game, plus some very useful Youtbue guides to play. I'd give it at least 9/10 based on what I've seen, but probably 10/10 when I've got my grubby mits on the book. Correct tactics appear to be rewarded in these rules as opposed to playing the rules, not the period. BTW the latest wargames mags seem to be full of articles relating to this given that the game is released in August.
Hope this helps?
Thanks Steve
Hoping to get a game at the end of August...looks fun
Here's some feedback from a mate that organised the TFL demo at SADWC last month.
I very much trust his opinions as he's a really quite splendid chap with years of wargaming experience under his belt. He's also very knowledgeable and gives a very fair overview of all the games he plays.
"The game is absolutely great. Even though we were all learners we comfortably finished the game in the evening and all thought it was brilliant. Indeed this is the only rule set I can recall where no one had any reservations or dislikes at all in the post game analysis.
We did an attack/defence game which was very useful as I wanted to see how the patrol phase would work in this type of scenario rather than encounter.
The game had a road running the length of the table (playing short end to short end) with a village at our end plus the usual hedges and walls etc (looked great!). Brits defending with a full platoon and a Vickers. Germans attacking with a full platoon, 75mm infantry gun and Sdkfz222.
In an attack defence game the defender starts his patrol phase from the center of the objective. The attack starts table edge but rolls to see how many jumps in he starts. So in this case Sean rolled and got 4 free moves with his patrol markers before I started moving ours. If you have seen the "Exposed AAR" on Lard Island I now understand what the deployment triangles mean!
The game was great - ending with a victory for the Germans.
Thoughts afterward - Elegant yet simple mechanisms – easy to pick up and intuitive after a couple of turns - Really keeps you engaged even if not the active player - Makes you focus on your leaders and use of sound tactics more than any other rule set - Reflects the different tactical doctrines of each side very well - Enables proper fire and movement - the patrol phase is a masterstroke and the jump off points a really clever idea
So all in all - can't wait!"
aargh... now I have to buy them ! @-)
;)
Thank you Nosher.
Ordered my rules only bundle- I actually enjoy making markers etc, and I have a load already anyway.
Have a platoon in 20mm, as well as a company based in 3s for 10mm (2 bases = 1 IABSM section). SERIOUSLY considering painting a second army up in 10mm to base individually for these.
Sums it up nicely Nosher :).
Got my order in- tablet version for me (Ive got all their tablet versions to date and they are ace!)
Im afraid we will be doing it 28mm as we already have a few forces for Rules of Engagement that would be suitable for this.
They'll be a step or two up in complexity from FUBAR, which I'm currently looking at for 10mm (I have some ancient Pendraken WWII that have sat in a box for years...)
I may need a whole load of hedges & walls though. I might be able to make hedges, but I'm not sure about walls...
Succumbed and ordered...have gone for the Big Bundle, just because I CBA to make any markers and it comes with dice which will help my dice-fetish ;) :)
Forgive me Leon for I have sinned
Settled on 20mm/1:72. Sunjester offered to sell me his Germans.
For those of you who DO use 10mm figures for skirmish scale single figure bases - what do you base your figures on? I was going to use 1p pieces, but they looked way too big. I'm basing some up now (mostly Pendraken...) using 12mm cardboard circles I punched out with a handy dandy punch I have, but I'd really have liked the solidity & weight of a 1p...
I use washers. They're heavy to stand up on the slopes. You may see some of them here : http://smolensk.homelinux.org/?tag=10mm (http://smolensk.homelinux.org/?tag=10mm) ( choose France 40 or SCW 36 )
I started to use smaller washes for the mortars crew.
(http://smolensk.homelinux.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/wargame-figurines_SCW36_tour5a-11.jpg)
And I've just ordered Chain of Command. :D
Those look as big as 1p pieces - what diameter are they? I did find some 12mm washers on ebay, but the holes in the middle were too big...
Grab the 15mm rounds from Leon through Minibits 8)
Wulf - 1p pieces should be fine for 10mm- you don't want your men too close together.
I shall reconsider them. But also look for 12mm washers with smaller holes...
Meanwhile, I have to consider how to base mortars & HMGs so the crew are at least within arm's reach of one another - I was trimming the cardboard bases to have two flat sides meeting to get them closer together. Harder to do with washers...
Quote from: nikharwood on 04 August 2013, 08:53:44 PM
Grab the 15mm rounds from Leon through Minibits 8)
I do find it amusing that the 20mm rounds - same diameter as a 1p piece - cost 4p each... 8)
I've used 12mm washers for single 10mm figures - I like the weight of the washer, helps to keep the figure upright.
I'm going to try Chain of Command with some multi based 10s, mainly because I have so many already painted - and photos of the games seem to show squads close together.
Splash out, go mad and use 5ps
Cheers
Craig
Tiny Terrain Models
I was thinking exactly that, Craig, but... no... :(
The bases would cost more than the figures ;).
There are people selling old 1/2p pieces on eBay... ???
Now they would be perfect. Were sods to get out of your pockets though!
Just buy 1/2" washers from your local car parts place, 100s for not very much...
I prefer to use MDF keeps thickness consistent with all the various shapes of base.
Sadly, the 1/2p sellers are either selling them by the half dozen, or charging postage for a security company to hand deliver...
I was also thinking of basing on 1p's. But clearing out the garage I just found a couple of hundred washers with small holes, 15mm diameter and almost as thick as 1p coin. I think I'll use those for the grunts and put ncos/officers on pennies.
I've dug through my odds box and found enough Fallschirmjager and German infantry to make a platoon of each, except for the lmgs (order on way to Leon), so I can get started whilst waiting for the release date!
My current plan for basing 15mm for CoC, sorry Leon, is OR on round bases and NCOs and officers on hexagons and/or octagons. All in MDF and from Leon. Hope that make up from playing CoC in 15mm. :D
Quote from: NTM on 05 August 2013, 10:39:40 AM
I prefer to use MDF keeps thickness consistent with all the various shapes of base.
One problem I have with MDF, and most other good, solid bases, is the thickness. If I have a 10mm figure, it'll have maybe another 1mm or so moulded on base. Add another 2mm for the base... Suddenly all my lovely 10mm scale buildings look way too small! The figures have to crouch to get in the doors...
Quote from: Nellkyn on 07 August 2013, 04:16:12 PM
My current plan for basing 15mm for CoC, sorry Leon, is OR on round bases and NCOs and officers on hexagons and/or octagons. All in MDF and from Leon. Hope that make up from playing CoC in 15mm. :D
8) :D