Christian (Serotonin) put me on to this one - the English version of the rulebook is available at Salute...certainly looks lovely enough - and would look beautiful in 10mm methinks... :-\ :)
Anyone seen it / played it / looking forward to it / building armies as I type? :)
http://www.fireandsword.wargamer.pl/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=46&Itemid=58
Going to be having a look at salute as it might give me some gaming out of my polish-Lithuanian commonwealth goodness from Pendraken!
There isn't too much info on the rules on the website so I have been holding off for that sole purpose
Check out Anatoli's Game Room (http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.co.uk/) he's done a bunch of AAR's and other articles on the rules. Plus it's also worth checking out as it's a great wargaming blog that's updated daily.
Ferb
Sounds interesting but I'm really limiting the number of games I play simply due to limited time. The time I do have I prefer to play the game rather than trying to remember the rules!
BTW the battle do look rather lovely on Anatolis Games Room 8).
Quote from: Ferb on 12 April 2013, 09:01:00 AM
Check out Anatoli's Game Room (http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.co.uk/) he's done a bunch of AAR's and other articles on the rules. Plus it's also worth checking out as it's a great wargaming blog that's updated daily.
Ferb
Quote from: Steve J on 12 April 2013, 09:29:48 AM
BTW the battle do look rather lovely on Anatolis Games Room 8).
Certainly do - his review is useful too - sounds like some interesting mechanisms - direct links:
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.se/2011/12/with-fire-and-sword-rules-review-part-1.html
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.se/2011/12/by-fire-and-sword-rules-review-part-2.html
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.se/2011/12/by-fire-and-sword-rules-review-part-3.html
An interesting period for sure.
From the interview with the game authors:
QuoteOf course you can play in 28mm or 10mm scale but there may be a problem with the availability of figures. The army lists for our game are very rich. This is the result of the fact that we analyzed the historical sources very precisely and dug out any information we were able. The figures available on the market often do not fit the game's requirements.
So a couple (or lot!) more figures from Pendraken could be what is needed! The matching 15mm ranges are very well researched and quite extensive.
Thanks for the links Nik. The rules do look good and beautifully produced. Nice to not needs loads of figures per base as well :).
Quote from: Steve J on 12 April 2013, 09:21:06 AM
Sounds interesting but I'm really limiting the number of games I play simply due to limited time. The time I do have I prefer to play the game rather than trying to remember the rules!
Quote from: Steve J on 12 April 2013, 09:29:48 AM
BTW the battle do look rather lovely on Anatolis Games Room 8).
Quote from: Steve J on 12 April 2013, 10:37:26 AM
Thanks for the links Nik. The rules do look good and beautifully produced. Nice to not needs loads of figures per base as well :).
Cor - you started with such strong resistance...for an hour and a quarter!
Do you want to ask Chris to pick you up a copy at Salute? ;) :P ;D
I'll send the nurse over :d
Thanks, Nik. This whole thing looks too good to miss. Even if the rules are just the umpteenth book on the shelf, the army lists, oob's and background information are very interesting.
Cheers,
Aart
Quote from: Aart Brouwer on 12 April 2013, 11:21:23 AM
Even if the rules are just the umpteenth book on the shelf, the army lists, oob's and background information are very interesting.
These rules are not the best one can find, but I can assure everybody that all the information about armies, tactic etc. are very well researched.
Thanks Maciek. Anyone know the price of the book as I couldn't see anything with regards to it? Not that I'm planning on buying it of course ;).
Around 40 Euros for the Polish edition, but the English edition may be differently priced?
Also (from the facebook page) "yes it would be presale of the book. We would have limited quantity to sell only during Salute."
Quote from: Steve J on 12 April 2013, 02:40:13 PM
Anyone know the price of the book as I couldn't see anything with regards to it? Not that I'm planning on buying it of course ;).
Yeah, right, whatever!! :P
As Tommy Cannon used to say... You lickle LIAR Bobby!!
Thanks for the links to the reviews - very helpful.
What attracted me to these initially was Northstar will be stocking the rules at some stage and there was a suggestion in the marketing material that it was a skirmish level game :-bd
I'm now really confused because Anatolis review talks about regiments, brigades divisions etc :-/
He also mentions they are written in a Battlefront/GW style... :-&
Glad I am going to Salute so I can thumb them in the flesh before parting with cash ;)
Quote from: Nosher on 12 April 2013, 03:24:36 PM
Glad I am going to Salute so I can thumb them in the flesh before parting with cash ;)
So many jokes... :D
Dave's always up for a good 'thumbing'... ;D
Quote from: Nosher on 12 April 2013, 03:24:36 PM
Thanks for the links to the reviews - very helpful.
What attracted me to these initially was Northstar will be stocking the rules at some stage and there was a suggestion in the marketing material that it was a skirmish level game :-bd
I'm now really confused because Anatolis review talks about regiments, brigades divisions etc :-/
From their webpage:
Depending on the experience of gamers and number of available figures, as well as time and space for the game, By Fire and Sword battles can be played on 4 different levels. The choice of the game level influences the available units for the gamer's force. The basic level of the game – called "The Foray" – is a short skirmish, completed in less than an hour. The highest level – called "The Field Army" enables recreating huge and truly epic battles.
First stand I am hitting up at Salute for sure. Looks great.
Like you need another ruleset Chris ;). Even if the rules are not that great the background info does sound very interesting.
Im reading the Novel, With Fire and Sword by Henryk Sienkiewicz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_Fire_and_Sword
My Polish colleague was amazed anyone would read it voluntarily. Apparently most Polish kids are force fed it at secondary school.
Come on then...who saw these at Salute? Enquiring minds want to know if they're any good... :)
I echo Nik's thoughts here. So Chris, did you buy/peruse/drool etc?
Ditto Nik and Steve J.
Didn't make Salute and would like to know, although I have a sneaking suspicion that the rules were only going to be available at Salute...
The Kickstarter project for this is still in progress, but well underway with (as of now) another 27 days to raise the required money. 5$ for a basic PDF of the rules doesn't sound to bad.
It would be good to get the opinion of people who have actually seen this in action, though.
http://kck.st/ZA2be5 (http://kck.st/ZA2be5)
Mmmmm Kickstarter....
I think I'll kick this one into touch...
QuoteI'm reading the Novel, With Fire and Sword by Henryk Sienkiewicz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/With_Fire_and_Sword
My Polish colleague was amazed anyone would read it voluntarily. Apparently most Polish kids are force fed it at secondary school.
Happened to watch the film at the weekend and found it quite enjoybale in a bit of a slapstick way. Not sure it will entice me into getting the book though :-\
QuoteHappened to watch the film at the weekend and found it quite enjoybale in a bit of a slapstick way. Not sure it will entice me into getting the book though
This movie got very bad press in Poland.
Try to watch "The Deluge" by the same director to feel the real climate of Sienkiewicz's books.
Thanks for the tip Maciek.
I'll keep an eye open forwhen the price comes down on Amazon. It' s abit eye-watering at the moment :(
I have the Teutonic Knights directed by Alexander Ford which I believe was adapted from Sienkiewicz's novel and that's very atmospheric, or at least seems so to me :)
So, what are the chances of persuading Leon et al to make models of all the various factions and troop types for this, eh? ;)
Quote from: OldenBUA on 23 April 2013, 09:03:49 AM
The Kickstarter project for this is still in progress, but well underway with (as of now) another 27 days to raise the required money. 5$ for a basic PDF of the rules doesn't sound to bad.
It would be good to get the opinion of people who have actually seen this in action, though.
http://kck.st/ZA2be5 (http://kck.st/ZA2be5)
Im just the man you need then! ;)
I got a game in at Salute with one of the authors (he trounced my Poles with his Swedes very quickly) and bought the rules, and have been very impressed. I only got to play the skirmish level (basically a supported regiment with one commander) at Salute and the core mechanics are reasonably fast play (not buckets of dice and it uses d10s which is a novelty) but nothing too unusual. The command mechanics are very good, and look even better at divisional level (multiple regiments and commanders).
Its all based around command points you dish out to units. All units (unless ambush scenario) start with 1 of 3 orders (move, charge or defend) but in future turns a commander needs to spend a command point to alter that order (with penalties for distance like warmaster- so 1 point to change a order within 20cm, 2 outside of 20 etc). Command points can also be spent to rally units, or remove wounds and a couple of other things I forget right now. You obviously dont get 100s of command points a turn, for example a basic level cossack commander might get 2 points a turn, whereas a top Swedish general might get 4. In the divisional game, not only do the regt commanders spend command points to order their units, but your C in C gives instructions to his subordinate commanders. So if your C in C gives a charge order to a colonels regiment, and your colonel decides that he wants 1 of the units in his regiment to defend rather than charge, that defence order will cost an extra command point. All the other units he gives charge orders to will only cost 1 pt a unit. Does that make sense?
I think the game would play well with 10mm figures. A stand is 40x20mm for Infantry, 40x40 for commanders and artillery and 40x30 for cavalry. At 15mm they place 3 figures on a stand. I guess if you were doing it in 10mm you could put more on for that lovely horde look we so love.
Any other questions give me a shout and I will try to answer them based on my reading of the book. It also has to be said the book is pure porn. Utter utter wargame filth. Without doubt the sexiest and heaviest wargames book in my collection. It weighs in over 2 kilos too! I know some grognards will moan about it because it has a lot of fluff and other stuff like painting guides, terrain construction guides- they have certainly taken a leaf out of GW and Battlefront books, thats for sure. Personally I like that.
Quote from: Malbork on 23 April 2013, 02:38:44 PM
Happened to watch the film at the weekend and found it quite enjoybale in a bit of a slapstick way. Not sure it will entice me into getting the book though :-\
The novel is pretty good so far. Its taken me a while to get my head around the names of people and places- not being familiar with Polish or the geography of the area has made it tricky, sometimes i have to really concentrate to work out if the name they used was referring to a place or person, which is hard for me as I am a notorious skim reader. The language of the translation is a little flowery at times, but so far its been pretty exciting- a real tale of romance, derring do, honour and politics. If you have a kindle its free on the kindle store.
Its also got one of the coolest/weirdest charatcers Ive read in a while- a noble who has made a vow of chastity until he, like his grandfather before him, is able to behead 3 enemies at once in one swipe of his longsword. He spends early part of the novel surrounded by a bevy of lovelies in the princes court, crossing his legs and thinking about Thatcher, pleading with everyone to take him in to their regiment. Made me chuckle. :D
Thanks for the info (on both counts...nice book download sat ready to read...)
I'm definitely getting this then - nothing like a bit of porn :D
Serotonin, thanks for the info. For now I think I'll start with the PDF rulebook. All the kickstarter options with the full rulebook include figures and also quite hefty shipping charges. My guess is that I'm better of getting the rulebook the next time I'm in Poland. And for figures, I might have other options too. :D
And yes, I have seen the film a couple of times (I have it on the hard-disk recorder somewhere), but in Ukrainian, with no subtitles. :( So, much is lost, but I can get the gist, and my wife can translate as well (she likes it quite a bit). And it helps that I'm somewhat familiar with the period and area. Haven't read the book, but might give it a try. :-\
Northstar is going to be stocking the rulebook, he thinks it will cost about £30 and he thinks it will be available about the end of May.
Yeah Northstar already stock the minis so I expect the rules will be available from them. Postage on the Kickstarter is high but to be fair, the book alone weighs in more than 2kg!
So, how many of you did buy a rulebook at Salute?
Quote
Rafal Olszewski from Wargamer.pl on May 23
We had only 150 copies of initial print. About 20 were distributed among authors, play testers and backers. 130 were sold on Salute. I expect that you will have quite nice gaming community. Regards Konrad
"the book alone weighs in more than 2kg!"
Whoa!!! Nice, that way if yer dont win, you can always use it to bludgeon your opponent to death with.
Who said big rulesets were rubbish?
Quote from: OldenBUA on 30 May 2013, 11:02:11 AM
So, how many of you did buy a rulebook at Salute?
Me, and by my reckoning I was possibly the first buyer- first stall I got to, and left £100 lighter. :D
Quote£100 lighter.
:o I hope that included the figures?
Quote from: Serotonin on 31 May 2013, 06:59:56 AM
Me, and by my reckoning I was possibly the first buyer- first stall I got to, and left £100 lighter. :D
You shouldn't carry such a valuable lighter. :D
Oh dear me ...
Quote from: Steve J on 31 May 2013, 07:20:27 AM
:o I hope that included the figures?
Hahah yes :D
Got a Polish starter pack and a Cossack starter pack, plus some command counters and the book. Almost finished the Cossack pack, lovely figures, although in the wrong scale clearly!
Well, North Star have it now: http://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=5492
£38.50 + postage though...hmm...this one might need to wait a while :(
Quote from: nikharwood on 28 July 2013, 10:41:52 PM
Well, North Star have it now: http://www.northstarfigures.com/prod.php?prod=5492
£38.50 + postage though...hmm...this one might need to wait a while :(
Yup.
Definately put me off that price tag
Hi
Looks like the $5 Kickstarter pdf version was a bargain then. Will have to sit down and go through it. First impressions were a very DB* style of game, but only skimmed through it up till now. Main issue for me is no index or QRS. Will have to look around the forums to see what's around.
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
See if you spend the big money you would have got a QRS and a index! ;)
Theres a QRS on their website.
Also I really dont think £38 is too much for a decent rule set, especially when its such a nice book full of lovely info and pictures too. People pay £50 plus for a console game that will last a few weeks play, so £38 for a rule book seems decent to me.
Comparing the price of a videogame with a ruleset... :-\
You didn't take in account the minis !!
And the development costs aren't exactly the same.
Im not sure what the printing costs of a bound 400 page full colour hardback rule book are but I cant imagine its that cheap. The point of my comparison was theres a lack of perceived value of rule sets, as if anyone charging more than a fiver for a photocopied pamphlet are taking the piss some what. Id much rather have a bookcase full of books like by Fire and Sword, Black Powder etc. Book are nice objects and lovely to have.
Maybe Im just a sucker for wargame porn.
I've just got my copy of the rulebook and in my opinion it's worth the money!! I was looking at their skirmish sets as they seem reasonably priced, so will probably end up with a couple of those as well.
Yeah the Skirmish sets are good value- I assumed they would be premium priced but when I looked at other 15mm manufacturers the prices were near enough identical, and thats without the bases and flag sheets. Also you get exactly the models you need, and when I priced it up with other companies you were buying more models than you required in order to make units up.
Funny enough I am off out this morning to have a test game with my gaming group. I was lucky enough to get a game with the author at Salute but this will be the first time Ive tried the rules out myself properly.
Quote from: Serotonin on 30 July 2013, 07:59:30 AM
Maybe Im just a sucker for wargame porn.
Me too...I can't stop looking at this, even with the hefty(ish) price tag :)
Quote from: Serotonin on 30 July 2013, 08:23:49 AM
Funny enough I am off out this morning to have a test game with my gaming group. I was lucky enough to get a game with the author at Salute but this will be the first time Ive tried the rules out myself properly.
Excellent - let us know how you get on...
I found this via the Sam Mustafa site:
http://knightrecoil.blogspot.co.uk/
For those that have or are thinking of getting this, the above overview should prove to be very useful.
Thanks, Steve - a useful link :)
Right, bought the book while I was in Poland, and some figures as well. Obviously in the wrong scale, but I found out a mate already had a DBR Polish army in 15mm. So it seemed a bit daft to start new armies in another scale. The book is very nice, very good quality and lots of illustrations. Had a test game, and it was interesting, too, though we didn't get to finish it. The approach they have, where uneven forces get compensated by the scenario and/or extra events looks interesting. At least it means that there will be not many battles with equal sides with only the destruction of the enemy as an objective!
Also, it would seem that they will also be present at the Crisis show in Antwerp, so another reason to go there. And possibly play a game and/or buy more stuff.
Hi Christian,
I hope youve still got these rules ? Ive just bought the rulebook following be introduced to them at Reveille this morning.
I got home at lunchtime, told my missus that Ive made 70 quid on the bring and buy and that I nearly bought a new rulebook with some of the proceeds and she told me that I should have got it! So I jumped back in the car, drove back round the corner to Reveille and picked up the book. Apparently she'll even buy me the minis for Xmas (I am getting worried that shes bought a pair of Jimmy Choos or something and shes trying to sweeten me up before she tells me!)
Havent had a chance to read in detail yet but they are gorgeous. Have you had a chnace to play many games yet?
Cheers,
Craig
Tiny Terrain Models
Hi
For those of you playing By Fire and Sword are you using 15mm, or have you tried it in 10mm.
I am about to start buying armies and I am undecided, should I stick with the rule writers suggestion of 15mm or go with 10mm. Whats the pros and cons of each for this system please?
Cheers,
Craig
Tiny terrain Models
I'm about to give in to the temptation of this one - will certainly be doing it in 10mm though :)
Just need to get the rulebook to start planning my forces...
Was talking to some friends about this yesterday who have played, they say the Swedes are almost unstoppable
Quote from: Fenton on 13 January 2014, 09:39:17 PM
Was talking to some friends about this yesterday who have played, they say the Swedes are almost unstoppable
Ah ok - I was thinking of Polish & Ottomans anyway :)
Much more interesting
Nik,
Do it, the book is worth the tag even if you never play the game. I am planning Tartars and possibly Ottoman in 10mm.
Cheers,
Craig
We played this a lot recently, using 15mm. I would certainly agree on the book alone being worth it. It's such a nice book, with lots and lots of illustrations, and just very well done.
As to Swedes being unstoppable, yes they do have some advantages. But they also have disadvantages, and it also depends on the scenario. Which is one of the highlights of the game, as quite uneven forces can still fight, but the weaker side gets a choice for the scenario, and possibly some additional bonus effects as well.
If you want advice for your forces, buy lots and lots of Ottomans. And then some more. Oh, and some Polish as well. The lists for the first level (Skirmish game) with a (smallish) force of around 10-50 bases can be downloaded from the wargamer.pl website. For the next level (Division), you might need around 3-5 times as many, and some extra. Some troop types (like Polish winged hussars or Ottoman Janissaries) only make an appearance at the divisional level.
Edit: Oh. And did I mention that Pawel Chrzanowski is listed among the 'Figures painted by' credits?
Quote from: TinyTerrain on 14 January 2014, 12:31:44 AM
Nik,
Do it, the book is worth the tag even if you never play the game. I am planning Tartars and possibly Ottoman in 10mm.
Bought last night - it's £35 from North Star in the January sale at the moment 8)
Anyone fancy sharing their 'buy' lists with me? This limited i'net access (again) is a nightmare in terms of force-planning... :(
I'm looking at Polish & Ottomans, possibly Tartars (using Mongols I think?)
Still sorely tempted by this but with limited funds I'm loathe to shell out on something I might only use occassionally...
Q1. When does North Stars sale end and what postage cost on the book (I have heard its hefty!)
Q2. The Army Dice look like d10 with symbols and numbers. Will normal d10 suffice?
Q3. Other than armies (I already have Poles and Swedes) do I need anything else to play?
Thanks in advance ;)
Quote from: Nosher on 18 January 2014, 10:47:15 AM
Still sorely tempted by this but with limited funds I'm loathe to shell out on something I might only use occassionally...
Q1. When does North Stars sale end and what postage cost on the book (I have heard its hefty!)
Q2. The Army Dice look like d10 with symbols and numbers. Will normal d10 suffice?
Q3. Other than armies (I already have Poles and Swedes) do I need anything else to play?
A1: Don't know, sorry. But it is a heavy book (around 2 kilos).
A2: Normal D10's will be just fine. IMHO these army dice aren't very readable, so you're better off with normal D10's anyway.
A3: You need order markers, which you can buy, or download and print. You also need casualty markers, you could either use any kind of marker, or casualty figures if these are available.
Quote from: nikharwood on 18 January 2014, 10:14:39 AM
Bought last night - it's £35 from North Star in the January sale at the moment 8)
Anyone fancy sharing their 'buy' lists with me? This limited i'net access (again) is a nightmare in terms of force-planning... :(
I'm looking at Polish & Ottomans, possibly Tartars (using Mongols I think?)
I hope you like it!
Tatars would be a good choice, as they can be used together with Poles and Ottomans (and everybody else really, except the Swedes). Mongols would work fine, I think. There is also "OT7 Tartar auxiliaries cavalry, bow/sabre" from the Ottoman range, that would also work, I suppose.
For a Skirmish level list you can use the following:
Polish (or Lithuanian) : Pancerni (P2), Cossack style cav (P12), Tatars (OT7/Mongol), Wallachians (P3?), dragoons (P13 + P10 as dismounted?)
Ottoman : Sipahi (OT4), Gonullu/Besli (OT5?), Segbans (??), Dellis (OT6) (only 2 or 3 bases)
Tatars : Warriors (unarmoured horse archers, some with javelin), Rabble (with improvised weapon or javelin)
You also need a commander base (or maybe 2) for Poles and Ottomans.
Number of packs depend on how many figures you put on a base. The rules use DBx style bases, so 4x3 with 3 figures for most mounted units, and 4x2 with 3 figures for foot. With 10mm, you might want to use a few more, I think? Around 24 bases total (spread around the various types) should give you enough to field large skirmish forces. For Ottomans it could be a few more, say 30 (more if you use Segbans). For Tatars, also around 30 (more if you want to use a 'Rabble' skirmish force).
It might help if you had a look at the skirmish lists that you can download here. (http://www.fireandsword.wargamer.pl/index.php?option=com_rokdownloads&view=folder&Itemid=78)
The skirmish lists could be useful for 'Pike & Shotte' which I've just bought :).
Postage from North Star is 10% :)
Thanks for those suggestions OldenBUA - is it just me being thick (entirely likely), but those lists are a bit indecipherable? I'm just not sure what they're saying - and I don't know enough about this period yet to know what figures would suit troop types etc :(
I'm also thinking about Pike & Shotte - they're a reasonable price as well now...so it might end up being By Fire & Sword for background & eye candy, then P&S for rules ;D
I've just bought Pike&Shotte and it does cover this period with a Polish and Ottoman list, albeit rather briefly. The F&S book will certainly fill in the gaps :D.
Quote from: Steve J on 19 January 2014, 08:17:53 AM
I've just bought Pike&Shotte and it does cover this period with a Polish and Ottoman list, albeit rather briefly. The F&S book will certainly fill in the gaps :D.
Thanks Steve...another rulebook ordered. You're such a bad influence ;)
Can you send the nurse over again please? ;D
Quote from: nikharwood on 18 January 2014, 08:59:27 PM
Thanks for those suggestions OldenBUA - is it just me being thick (entirely likely), but those lists are a bit indecipherable? I'm just not sure what they're saying - and I don't know enough about this period yet to know what figures would suit troop types etc :(
There's also a guide to the armylists in the downloads. That might help. But basically, all lists work the same way. You start with a commander (colonel) with a number of command points and a basic force (the first line on the chart). On this line are the various units. Each silhouette represents a single figure, so three figures together is a base. A column of these (usually 2 or 3) represents a unit (called a banner for Polish, ala/cemaat for Ottomans, torhak for Tatars). All figures that are greyed out are optional, you can fill out these units by buying extra bases. From the second line onwards, you have extra units that you can add. Usually these give you a choice of units. For example, the Polish lists gives you a 2-base Cossack style OR Tatar OR Wallachian unit (all can be expanded to 3 bases). On the right hand side there may be extra greyed out figures. You can buy these if you field enough troops (like the Polish Rotamaster subcommander), or you get a set number, depending on how many troops you field, like the Polish getting 3 to 6 bases of volunteer cavalry. On the bottom, there are notes giving point values for the various options. Sometimes you get extra options, like swapping one type of unit for another one.
I gave some suggestions on the figure codes, based on what I know, and the description in the Pendraken catalogue. There are no pictures in this range, but from what I've seen from armies posted on the forum they should work. If you want to dive straight in and go to divisional level, you get a lot more options. Basically, each division has a main commander, 3 to 5 regiments, divisional artillery and a choice of extra units. Each regiment has the same type of structure as a skirmish force, but with usually only a few troop types, and less options. But you get to choose which regiments to use in the division. The Poles have many choices here, the Ottomans and Tatars are more limited. Here is where you'll find the winged hussars (in Polish cavalry regiments), reiters, pike and shot infantry and levies for the Poles. And janissaries (max 1 regiment) and some special units like Silahdars and Tufekci for the Ottomans.
I hope that helps a bit. Otherwise, wait till you get the book, and get some serious 'me' time. Planning divisions can be quite addictive!
QuoteThanks Steve...another rulebook ordered. You're such a bad influence Wink
Can you send the nurse over again please? Grin
Not a chance as she is adminstering salve to my poor and frail body... ;).
The rulebook is very nice and I'm tempted by the Irish Nine Years War/Plantation Wars due to the great mix of figures involved. At least I can use my 2mm ECW armies to get going in the meantime.
Quote from: OldenBUA on 19 January 2014, 10:33:34 AM
I hope that helps a bit. Otherwise, wait till you get the book, and get some serious 'me' time. Planning divisions can be quite addictive!
Thanks OldenBUA - that helps a lot! (I think was being dense - but now you've explained it, it all makes sense 8))
I think I can see divisions on the horizon - otherwise we're not getting the funky stuff ;)
Quote from: Steve J on 19 January 2014, 11:37:24 AM
Not a chance as she is adminstering salve to my poor and frail body... ;).
The rulebook is very nice and I'm tempted by the Irish Nine Years War/Plantation Wars due to the great mix of figures involved. At least I can use my 2mm ECW armies to get going in the meantime.
Sounds good to me :D
Quote from: nikharwood on 19 January 2014, 01:26:20 PM
I think I can see divisions on the horizon - otherwise we're not getting the funky stuff ;)
Spoken like a true wargamer! Where would we be if we didn't want the funky stuff!
Alex
Wow. Just wow. This arrived today via North Star and I am totally, utterly, blown away. For someone like me who tends towards the critical, this is an awesomely rendered wargames book. Superbly bound, beautifully set, with lovely thick paper - high quality illustrations & photos (of models, games and re-enactors, really well done) throughout - and, even at nearly 400 pages, not any 'filler'.
I'm enthralled - I know next-to-nothing really about this period in this setting - but I am enormously pleased that I decided to buy this book (and thanks for the encouragement, chaps!). It might be the best part of £40 - but I would say that this is one of the most beautiful wargaming books I have ever seen.
The fact that it will get me into a new period, with new armies, new painting, new rules, new adventures - is a bonus. I could quite happily sit here & read this tome over & over again.
Seriously, if you've been uncertain about this - go buy it. Now. You'll love it - even if you only play WW2 :)
Oh - and it's still on sale at North Star in Nick's January Bargains for £35 8)
Hello Nik
It's great that you've found this period, one that I've always been interested in.
One point to bear in mind is that descriptions and histories from both sides can be jingoistic and nationalistic to the extreme (including later material) ,and sometimes you have to read both sides' stories and come to a happy average.
If you ask a Pole his only puzzle is why the Winged Hussars didn't overrun all of Europe :), and is you talk to Cossacks they only lost because the Poles were underhanded with the Cossacks' Tartar allies :).
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
I'm hoping the sale continues till Friday (pay day) - six week months are a killer :(
You're not alone Nosher, I feel my willpower crumbling also.
So much for my New Year Resolution of "NO NEW PERIODS"
I can get round that though by argueing that as I already have ECW armies that these are about the same period, just a different theatre. :P :P :P
Quote from: GrumpyOldMan on 23 January 2014, 03:34:04 AM
One point to bear in mind is that descriptions and histories from both sides can be jingoistic and nationalistic to the extreme (including later material) ,and sometimes you have to read both sides' stories and come to a happy average.
If you ask a Pole his only puzzle is why the Winged Hussars didn't overrun all of Europe :), and is you talk to Cossacks they only lost because the Poles were underhanded with the Cossacks' Tartar allies :).
:D
have you managed to understand the army lists yet Nik?
Friend sent me the free ones and was totally confused for a while
Quote from: Fenton on 23 January 2014, 09:36:19 PM
have you managed to understand the army lists yet Nik?
Friend sent me the free ones and was totally confused for a while
Kind of, sort of - OldenBUA's notes here certainly helped...I've been looking at Divisional lists & I think I've got my head around it...I do know that I'm not going with 3 figures to a 40x20 base though ;)
I think it's about time I start to ask that nice Mr Leon for a commission. :D
But seriously, I would love to see what you come up with. While the 15mils are OK for the skirmish level, for the divisional level 10mm would really shine. Also because you need a lot of bases for a division! If you want to put more figures on a base (and it's certainly the way forward with 10mm), you might do something like 8 for foot, 6 for close order cavalry (hussars/sipahi) and 4 for open order cav (Tatars/Wallachians/Besli)? The number of figures on a base is not really important, anyway. So whatever you come up with will work, but varying the numbers might help in identification.
Quote from: Fenton on 23 January 2014, 09:36:19 PM
have you managed to understand the army lists yet Nik?
If you have any questions, just ask! I'll can certainly add new levels of confusion!
Paydays arrived, willpower crumbled... just hope the purchase is worth it.
I've spent far too much in previous years on follys that are gathering dust and promised myself that 2014 would be a frugal year.
I'm actually leaning towards Essex 15mils for this, simply because of choice of figures, with the current Pendraken ranges you're pretty much stuck with Poles vs Ottoman Turks.
Quote from: Nosher on 24 January 2014, 02:54:55 PM
Paydays arrived, willpower crumbled... just hope the purchase is worth it.
I've spent far too much in previous years on follys that are gathering dust and promised myself that 2014 would be a frugal year.
Nosher, mate - this comes with a Nik guarantee that you'll feckin' love it :D
Haven't you got these armies anyway? Or at least the Swedes IIRC...
Quote from: GordonY on 24 January 2014, 02:57:46 PM
I'm actually leaning towards Essex 15mils for this, simply because of choice of figures, with the current Pendraken ranges you're pretty much stuck with Poles vs Ottoman Turks.
Boo hiss ;) Don't do it...there's got to be a ways of doing this using Pendraken loveliness..?! That's my mission for this weekend, anyway (poss including some German mercenaries too...) - oh, and a presentation for a *serious* job interview I've got on Tuesday morning :o
Yes Nik got both armies so no new purchases on that front - was speaking about follies in general and my 'habit' of purchasing stuff that I never get round to starting let alone finishing!
Quote from: GordonY on 24 January 2014, 02:57:46 PM
with the current Pendraken ranges you're pretty much stuck with Poles vs Ottoman Turks
I would think that Swedes shouldn't be too difficult? The army is largely the same as in the Thirty Years war. So mixed pike and shot, field artillery, dragoons and reiters. Seems to me these can be got from the ECW range, with some additions from TYW, maybe even from the LoA range?
As said before, the new Mongols should work quite well for Tatars.
Cossacks should be possible too, I think FierceKitty has shown some battle reports recently (battle of Buggerovka (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8673.0.html)). He did use some unusual codes though, like the peasant arquebusier from the Samurai range.
That leaves the Muscovites. Maybe you can use some of the troops from the GNW Russians. It's right after the period BFaS concentrates on, and some troop types didn't change too much. But here there are still gaps, I'm afraid.
In the supplement (Potop/the Deluge) that is planned, there will be Moldavians, Transylvanians, Hungarians and Brandenburgers. These might be more difficult with the current ranges.
I've got a couple of (forgive me) really basic questions which I'm confident that OldenBUA can answer for me ;) :)
Can you let me know which armies fought which opponents? (I think I've got it, but...)
Can you confirm that, in building army lists (and I'm definitely going Divisional!), that it doesn't really matter how many FSP you're looking at, as the scenario will balance? Or would it make more sense to look at rough equivalents anyway?
Hello Nik
Some to be going on with:-
1588 Bychyna - Polish vs Habsburg & Polish, Polish victory;
1601 Kokenhausen - Polish Com. vs Swedish, Polish victrory;
1605 Kircholm - Polish Com. vs Swedish, Polish victory;
1610 Klushin - Polish Com. vs Russian, Polish Victory (Moscow captured);
1617 Moscow - Polish Com. vs Russian, a draw or Russian victory;
1620 Cecora - Polish Com. vs Turkish(Tatars), Turkish victory;
1621 Chocim - Polish Com ( including Cossacks) vs. Turkish, Polish vic;
1625 Gniew - Polish Com. vs Swedish( G.Adolphus), Swedish victory;
1627 Trzciana - Polish Com. vs Swedish (G. Adolph.), Polish Victory;
1633 Kamieniec - Polish Com. vs Turkish, Polish victory;
1633 Smolensk - Polish Com. vs Russian, Polish victory;
1648 Żółte Wody ( Yellow Water)- Polish Com. vs Cossack rebels, Cossacks victory;
1648 Korsuń - Polish Com. vs Cossack rebels & Tatars, Cossacks victory;
1648 Piławce (Pilavce)- Polish Com. vs Cossack rebels & Tatars, Cossack victory;
1649 Zbaraż & Zborów - the same, Polish Victory;
1651 Beresteczko - the same, Polish victory - about 220 000 soldiers fighting
1652 Batoh - the same, Cossack victory;
1654 - Russian invasion, Polish Com & Tatars vs Russians & Cossack, several battles mostly won by Russians
1655 - Swedish invasion, Polish Com vs Swedish, several Swedish victories;
1656 Warka - Polish Com. vs Swedish, Polish victory;
1656 Warsaw - Polish Com. vs Swedish & Brandenburg, called Swedish victory, but rather a draw;
1660 Cudnow - Polish Com. vs Russian, Polish victory;
1672 Kamieniec - Polish Com. vs Turkish, Turkish victory;
1672 Lwow(Lviv) -Polish Com vs Tatar, Polish victory;
1673 Chocim - Polish Com vs Turkish, Polish victory;
1674 Lwow - Polish Com vs Tatar, Polish victory;
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
1674 Zurawno - Polish Com vs Turkish, a draw;
1683 Vienna - Polish&Emire&German vs Turkish, allied victory;
Quote from: nikharwood on 26 January 2014, 10:07:51 PM
I've got a couple of (forgive me) really basic questions which I'm confident that OldenBUA can answer for me ;) :)
Can you let me know which armies fought which opponents? (I think I've got it, but...)
Can you confirm that, in building army lists (and I'm definitely going Divisional!), that it doesn't really matter how many FSP you're looking at, as the scenario will balance? Or would it make more sense to look at rough equivalents anyway?
There's a quite detailed pdf (http://www.fireandsword.wargamer.pl/index.php?option=com_rokdownloads&view=file&task=download&id=35%3Abfas-enemies-and-allies&Itemid=78) in the downloads section that lists the enemies and allies for the various factions.
A big difference in FSP should (in theory!) be compensated with the various effects (tactics and so on) that the smaller force will get. How this works out in practice remains to be seen, we haven't played any divisional game (so far). Roughly equal forces means fewer adjustments are made. But if you start out with roughly equal forces in regards to number of bases/units, it's always possible to try and field one force with say only half of them, and see what happens. If one of your forces is much bigger than the other to start with, you will have fewer options here.
But I think you will have noticed by now that there is quite a bit of variation possible, with regards to FSP strength. The base cost of a really good regiment is much more than a regiment of poor troops. And within each regiment you can field various levels, and also spend points on various upgrades. So it goes from 1 FSP for a bare bones regiment of Levy to 21 FSP for a full elite cavalry regiment. The Polish/Lithuanians have more to choose from, so that gives more options. It's not very easy. But my advice would be to aim for a basic force of the most common troops, so (Elite) cavalry regiments for the Polish, with maybe one regiment of dragoons or infantry. The Ottomans and Tatars are more straightforward, as they have fewer options.
Excellent - thanks chaps, much appreciated 8)
Preparing for interview (tomorrow) tonight, but will work on some lists tomorrow night - either in celebration or commiseration!
Aha - thanks Anatoli 8)
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/by-fire-sword-skirmish-list.html
http://anatolisgameroom.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/by-fire-sword-division-list.html
That'll do nicely :)
Very nice find Nik, those look superb as well, that IS an awful lot of donkey wallopers to be painting though.
Makes me reconsider the 15mm option, cos lets face it theres a lot less to paint on a 10mm horsey boy.
I'm still undecided, still I've got all day tomorrow to mull it over (money hits the bank on Friday :) ) and some will leave on Friday for either 2 x 10mm armies or the rulebook.
Quote from: GordonY on 29 January 2014, 10:27:41 PM
Very nice find Nik, those look superb as well, that IS an awful lot of donkey wallopers to be painting though.
Makes me reconsider the 15mm option, cos lets face it theres a lot less to paint on a 10mm horsey boy.
I'm still undecided, still I've got all day tomorrow to mull it over (money hits the bank on Friday :) ) and some will leave on Friday for either 2 x 10mm armies or the rulebook.
Those, plus OldenBUA's notes here, have made my mind up (not a big task) on 10mm at divisional level. I'm going to try to work up lists for these as soon as possible - definitely do-able using Pendrakenforum loveliness methinks: Polish, Ottomans, Swedish & Tartars certainly...
Looking forward to this one - I think, if nothing else, the armies involved will look the absolute business on the table 8)
Once again Anatoli's Blog comes in very handy :). For me too many horses to paint (at present ;)) but a great resource for the future, given that Pike & Shotte covers this period as well.
Quote from: nikharwood on 27 January 2014, 07:09:57 PM
Excellent - thanks chaps, much appreciated 8)
Preparing for interview (tomorrow) tonight, but will work on some lists tomorrow night - either in celebration or commiseration!
Good luck dude ;)
Let us know how you get on!
The satisfying thump (literally... think I might need new floorboards near the front door) of BFAS hitting my doormat today. Had a brief flick through.
Immediate thoughts?
Like
1. The fact that its a proper book
2. Decent background history on the period and forces involved
3. Great to see less popular forces covered
4. Feels like it is value for money - proof will be if its playable
5. Once I got my head around the army lists I wont need to buy anything new at skirmish level :)
Dislikes
1. Somehow feels quite cluttered... I dont know if anyone has a copy of Napoleons Battles? Feels a bit like that...
2. Pages and pages of army lists - very similar to FOW. Not really sure its all necessary?
3. The army lists are quite confusing - explanation on how they work feels a bit vague
4. Lots of GW influence (WYSIWYG, collecting armies, painting figures - dont need it, been doing the hobby for years, dont need advice on paintbrushes, paints etc)
5. Once I got my head around the army lists I WILL need some more figures to play Divisional Level games :-q
Quote from: Nosher on 30 January 2014, 06:39:01 PM
Dislikes
5. Once I got my head around the army lists I WILL need some more figures to play Divisional Level games :-q
I think you've got this in the wrong section, surely it's a plus! :D
QuoteI think you've got this in the wrong section, surely it's a plus!
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Quote from: Nosher on 30 January 2014, 06:39:01 PM
Like
4. Feels like it is value for money - proof will be if its playable
IMHO it's quite playable, once you get the hang of it. We had our misunderstandings at first, but asking a few questions at their forum helped. To me, the strong points are the way battles are set up, based on force point difference. Also, the fact that it uses D10's, and not the ever present D6's gives you a different spread of probabilities. Most units have low hit chances (4's or 3's or even less), so when you do get a number of good scores it can really make a difference. The down side is that you have the rules, and then the army special rules, and then the unit special rules. It all stacks up, it's in different places in the book, and it's not always clear how they influence each other.
Quote
Dislikes
4. Lots of GW influence (WYSIWYG, collecting armies, painting figures - dont need it, been doing the hobby for years, dont need advice on paintbrushes, paints etc)
That's a consequence of it first being aimed at the Polish market, I guess. It makes it more accessible to beginners. For the English edition, they could have left it out, since it's mostly the old farts who are buying the book (myself included).
Yep decided that my 15mm heresy was a scale too far and will be doing them in 10mm Pendraken loveliness, but because of the smaller figures I thought I'd shrink the bases down to 30x15/30x20/30x30, anyone see any problem with that?
Plus it has the advantage of making my 6ft x 4ft table that much bigger when doing divisional (and maybe bigger) games.
Quote from: Steve J on 30 January 2014, 07:46:47 AM
Once again Anatoli's Blog comes in very handy :). For me too many horses to paint (at present ;)) but a great resource for the future, given that Pike & Shotte covers this period as well.
Yep - good point SteveJ....I thought I'd ordered Pike & Shotte last weekend, but didn't - so I'll have to rectify that methinks...
Quote from: Nosher on 30 January 2014, 07:59:32 AM
Good luck dude ;)
Let us know how you get on!
Expect an update over the weeked, Nosher mate...
Quote from: Nosher on 30 January 2014, 06:39:01 PM
The satisfying thump (literally... think I might need new floorboards near the front door) of BFAS hitting my doormat today. Had a brief flick through.
Immediate thoughts?
Like
1. The fact that its a proper book
2. Decent background history on the period and forces involved
3. Great to see less popular forces covered
4. Feels like it is value for money - proof will be if its playable
5. Once I got my head around the army lists I wont need to buy anything new at skirmish level :)
Dislikes
1. Somehow feels quite cluttered... I dont know if anyone has a copy of Napoleons Battles? Feels a bit like that...
2. Pages and pages of army lists - very similar to FOW. Not really sure its all necessary?
3. The army lists are quite confusing - explanation on how they work feels a bit vague
4. Lots of GW influence (WYSIWYG, collecting armies, painting figures - dont need it, been doing the hobby for years, dont need advice on paintbrushes, paints etc)
5. Once I got my head around the army lists I WILL need some more figures to play Divisional Level games :-q
Quote from: OldenBUA on 30 January 2014, 07:24:04 PM
IMHO it's quite playable, once you get the hang of it. We had our misunderstandings at first, but asking a few questions at their forum helped. To me, the strong points are the way battles are set up, based on force point difference. Also, the fact that it uses D10's, and not the ever present D6's gives you a different spread of probabilities. Most units have low hit chances (4's or 3's or even less), so when you do get a number of good scores it can really make a difference. The down side is that you have the rules, and then the army special rules, and then the unit special rules. It all stacks up, it's in different places in the book, and it's not always clear how they influence each other.
That's a consequence of it first being aimed at the Polish market, I guess. It makes it more accessible to beginners. For the English edition, they could have left it out, since it's mostly the old farts who are buying the book (myself included).
Yep - agreed. I think one of the things I like the most is simply the sheer pleasure of it as a "proper book" - it's really nice to pick up & flick through, which is what I seem to be doing this week without sufficient time to read it in-depth properly. I've not managed to digest the rules themselves fully yet - but on the basis of the flick-read I've given them, I'm encouraged.
Quote from: GordonY on 30 January 2014, 08:50:36 PM
Yep decided that my 15mm heresy was a scale too far and will be doing them in 10mm Pendraken loveliness, but because of the smaller figures I thought I'd shrink the bases down to 30x15/30x20/30x30, anyone see any problem with that?
Plus it has the advantage of making my 6ft x 4ft table that much bigger when doing divisional (and maybe bigger) games.
Sensible man. Everyone knows that 15mm is the devil's own scale etc etc ;)
I wouldn't see any problem at all in changing base sizes as long as you're consistent - I'm likely to end up bunging everything onto 40x20 (or poss 50x25) just so that it'll all work with P&S / RenaissanceMaster etc anyway I think.
I'm hoping to be able to finalise my lists on Saturday / Sunday - will bung 'em up here if anyone's interested?
Quote from: GordonY on 30 January 2014, 08:50:36 PM
because of the smaller figures I thought I'd shrink the bases down to 30x15/30x20/30x30, anyone see any problem with that?
Base size shouldn't make much of a difference, I think.
Quote from: nikharwood on 30 January 2014, 11:24:54 PM
I'm hoping to be able to finalise my lists on Saturday / Sunday - will bung 'em up here if anyone's interested?
I would like to see what you came up with, yes. Might come in handy later.
Everything crossed on the interview/job front dude. ;)
Quote from: OldenBUA on 31 January 2014, 07:17:47 AM
I would like to see what you came up with, yes. Might come in handy later.
Cool - just finalising the lists at the moment, will bung them up later...
Quote from: Nosher on 31 January 2014, 07:48:46 AM
Everything crossed on the interview/job front dude. ;)
Announcement imminent ;)
Right - news on the interview now posted: http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9388.0.html (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9388.0.html)
I'll put my lists up in a separate thread...
Lists & codes here: http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9389.0.html (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9389.0.html)
Quote from: nikharwood on 19 January 2014, 10:11:04 AM
Thanks Steve...another rulebook ordered. You're such a bad influence ;)
Can you send the nurse over again please? ;D
Oh - by the way - got these from Speedy Hen for £17.79 post-free 8)
Wow, that's a good price! I will check these out for future purchases... :D.
I must admit I recently found Speedyhen and have been very impressed.
I just managed to get 2 FOG suppliments for less than 8quid each (not for use with FOG but for the army lists) and The Force on Force Bush Wars book (again for the background info and army lists) for just over 8 quid......all post free!
New and cheaper than Ebay!
Cheers,
Craig
Tiny Terrain Models
Hail Caesar is there for £17.79 too...
http://www.speedyhen.com/StoreFront/Product/Rick-Priestley/Hail-Caesar/2920654 (http://www.speedyhen.com/StoreFront/Product/Rick-Priestley/Hail-Caesar/2920654)
Here's the search result for 'wargames' - bargains galore...
http://www.speedyhen.com/StoreFront/Search/Books?Keyword=Wargames&fq=01120 (http://www.speedyhen.com/StoreFront/Search/Books?Keyword=Wargames&fq=01120)
I would have saved £5 or more ordering from Speedy Hen if I'd known about them last month!
The rulebook arrived today, only had a quick flick but, FWOAR!!!!
Now thats real wargaming porn.
Quote from: GordonY on 06 February 2014, 01:24:03 PM
The rulebook arrived today, only had a quick flick but, FWOAR!!!!
Now thats real wargaming porn.
Yes. Yes it is. :d
It is a nice book, and the lists from the kickstarter are still coming every few weeks too. Not sure how many new lists have been added so far since then, but it's quite a few. I think they're all available on the BF&S website too if you didn't do the kickstarter.
Still trying to summon the energy to give this a go. I have the book, I have the figures already to go, but my gaming mojo has been seriously in decline since late last year.
I haven't raised a brush in anger since October, have played two solo games since December (and packed both games away early because I got bored a few moves in) and I haven't been to the club since December. :o
Yes works busy, and yes I'm studying. I've joined a gym and smash myself four to five times a week and I've also joined a new volleyball club and train once a week and play most weekends. Pre-season cricket has kicked in and training is in full swing. I'm also mentoring some new coaches under the new ECB coaching scheme.... busy boy, but thoroughly enjoying the new fitness regime which I have neglected for far too long :)
In between watching the six-nations and The Musketeers and there seems to be little time for anything else, but wargaming has certainly taken a back seat - simply not feeling the love for it at the moment. ???
Hang in the Nosher. Your wargaming Mojo will refill.
You'll find yourself in a beach volleyball game with bikini clad lovelies thinking "I wonder if the WWI Pendraken Highlanders would be suitable for 1940." You'll be massaging your box in the slips pondering the relative merits of the longbow and the musket or you'll be watching some young lady on the running machine thinking "that's the same motion as captured in SF21x." Perhaps you'll see an episode of "The Musketeers" and think, "Hmm, FSN is right and they're not giving Constance enough to do, but this episode gives me an idea for a scenario" or you'll be watching the rugby and thinking "no, this is actually very boring, I think I'll go and play with myself." and toddle off to the games room.
ECB will give way to ECW and you'll be back.
If not, post some pics of your collection, and I think I deserve a 10% discount.
Quote from: fsn on 09 February 2014, 11:37:53 AM
Hang in the Nosher. Your wargaming Mojo will refill.
You'll find yourself in a beach volleyball game with bikini clad lovelies thinking "I wonder if the WWI Pendraken Highlanders would be suitable for 1940." You'll be massaging your box in the slips pondering the relative merits of the longbow and the musket or you'll be watching some young lady on the running machine thinking "that's the same motion as captured in SF21x." Perhaps you'll see an episode of "The Musketeers" and think, "Hmm, FSN is right and they're not giving Constance enough to do, but this episode gives me an idea for a scenario" or you'll be watching the rugby and thinking "no, this is actually very boring, I think I'll go and play with myself." and toddle off to the games room.
ECB will give way to ECW and you'll be back.
If not, post some pics of your collection, and I think I deserve a 10% discount.
Wot he sed ;D
Quote from: Nosher on 09 February 2014, 11:15:06 AM
Still trying to summon the energy to give this a go. I have the book, I have the figures already to go, but my gaming mojo has been seriously in decline since late last year.
I haven't raised a brush in anger since October, have played two solo games since December (and packed both games away early because I got bored a few moves in) and I haven't been to the club since December. :o
Yes works busy, and yes I'm studying. I've joined a gym and smash myself four to five times a week and I've also joined a new volleyball club and train once a week and play most weekends. Pre-season cricket has kicked in and training is in full swing. I'm also mentoring some new coaches under the new ECB coaching scheme.... busy boy, but thoroughly enjoying the new fitness regime which I have neglected for far too long :)
In between watching the six-nations and The Musketeers and there seems to be little time for anything else, but wargaming has certainly taken a back seat - simply not feeling the love for it at the moment. ???
Too much exercise is as bad as too little. Don't leave your best performances (whatever they be) on the training ground.
I have a day off today and have been trying to read through the rules...
The Fast Play Sheet is very poorly laid out and pivotal sections appear to be missing from it. I cant think of another ruleset where I am having to flick from one page to another to work out sequences of play quite as much as I am having to do so with this set.
This definately isn't a pick up and play game - even at skirmish level. It has taken me the best part of the morning to figure out two opposing forces, get my head around the scenario and work out how to incorporate all of the additional set up rules depending on the scenario.
Feeling like I need another nights sleep before having another go at making things make sense... ~X(
It's probably not a pick up and play game, but it isn't all that complicated either, when you get the hang of it. And the QRF could be better (some people agreed and made an improved version).
Choosing forces, with the diagrams supplied can be tricky, as you have quite a few options. But for a first game, just the basic force should work just fine. Also, the basic Patrol scenario is the easiest to set up. Though maybe not the easiest to win (depending on what troops you field).
Anyway, if you have anything that leaves you scratching your head, feel free to ask!
Is there a better Refernce sheet anywhere other than on the rules forum? I get a bit fed up joining forums I never bother using just to download things needed for the game...
If anyone has the newer/revised version I'd be grateful if they could message me.
I am trying to give this game the benfit of the doubt - I think its because now i have a job I finally have to use my brain for, I like to not use it when I'm doing hobby related things
The basic concepts of the game are pretty easy to get your head around. Like a lot of games, the first few times you play you have to search around the book a few times, but it quickly settles down. Like most of the games I've played over the last 30 years, I can pretty much play BF&S using just the reference sheets now, and that's only after half a dozen games at most.
The division set up thing is a bit of a head scratcher at first - it could and should have been better explained in the book - but once you do get it, it becomes pretty easy too. If you're just starting off, I'd suggest the skirmish game anyway to get used to how the core rules work (movement, combat, morale etc).
Yep - pretty much agreed - with all of you...
Nosher - it's not as bad as it seems - one of the things that has really helped me is Anatoli's blog: definitely worth reading a load of his BF&S posts (over 100+ of them), especially the batreps...I guess it might be hindered by its translation to English a bit? Having said that, and without having played a game yet, I've 'got' the basics through reading a few times.
The help here from OldenBUA (& Anatoli's blog) certainly made it easier for me to get my head around building force lists...
I think Nick the Lemming is right - might be worth having a bash at the skirmish level - after all, you've got plenty figures painted up already ;) 8)
Quote from: Nick the Lemming on 10 February 2014, 05:28:28 PM
The basic concepts of the game are pretty easy to get your head around. Like a lot of games, the first few times you play you have to search around the book a few times, but it quickly settles down. Like most of the games I've played over the last 30 years, I can pretty much play BF&S using just the reference sheets now, and that's only after half a dozen games at most.
The division set up thing is a bit of a head scratcher at first - it could and should have been better explained in the book - but once you do get it, it becomes pretty easy too. If you're just starting off, I'd suggest the skirmish game anyway to get used to how the core rules work (movement, combat, morale etc).
Noted on the player contributed QRs that close combat section INCLUDES the modifiers for charging and defending obstacles which is cool. However Pistols have suddenly appeared in the same list of modifiers however I cant find this in the main rule book... although I do recall Pistols getting a -1 when shooting whilst charging which is mentioned in the fluff in the army lists.
1. Can anyone point out where the +1 for pistols charging come from in the rules?
2. If I have it right you get a +1 for pistols being used in close combat, but a -1 for using them if choosing to shoot during the charge move??
HELP!
Using pistols to get a +1 in Close Combat is a bit hidden, and it's an advanced rule (marked with special symbol) as well. See page 73, the bit that starts with 'If the limited ammunition rule is used...'
Note that you get a +1 on Skill for your Close Combat dice. Which is not the same as the 'Shooting while charging' dice. In effect, you use them in the charge, and AGAIN in Close Combat. But you also use ammunition twice.
i.e. A unit of 2 bases of Reiters charges (two wide, 1 deep). First you do the 'Shooting while charging', which is only one die for each base, with a -1 on skill. Then you get to close combat, where each base gets two dice, with a +1 for the Pistols, and other modifiers (i.e. +1 for impetus). The unit will use two units of ammunition with this. Reiters usually have limited ammo, so that's half of the ammo in one charge! So it may be better to save your ammo for close combat... And by the way, not all pistol armed troops have the 'shooting while charging' rule as well.
We do find that deeper formations help. First it helps a lot with the outnumbering combat resolution modifiers. And second it means you shoot with half bases, so you spend only half an ammo with each shot.
I hope all that makes some sense.
It does Alex - it confirms my thoughts.
I take it the +1 for pistols is a skill modifier (i.e it increases the unit skill factor by +1 rather than the dice roll)
Another question on CC - do overlapping bases fight when they have corner to corner contact or do they just count towards numbers of bases for outnumbering purposes?
Yes, plus one on skill, so better chance to hit.
The question about overlapping bases fighting or not has been discussed on the BFaS forum. The outcome was that these bases can fight. This even applies if those bases are from another unit, as long as there is actual contact, even if it's only corner to corner. There is also the rule that bases within 2 cm can fight, but this rule only applies for bases from a unit where some bases are in contact with the enemy.
Having said this, I must say this hasn't come up much in our games so far, as it's usually a single unit fighting against another single unit. And lots of open order troops, where everything is more fluid, as well. Also, since it's not DBM, bases don't line up corner to corner, so this situation is less likely to happen in the first place.
Nik, what figure codes are you using for all these bloody standard bearers?
Got 3 good uns from the Ottoman command pack but thats it so far, seem to need a standard for every dozen or so figures.
Quote from: GordonY on 20 February 2014, 11:03:30 AM
Nik, what figure codes are you using for all these bloody standard bearers?
Got 3 good uns from the Ottoman command pack but thats it so far, seem to need a standard for every dozen or so figures.
Really? Hmm...I'd not really thought of it like that..I've ordered exactly what I listed here: http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,9389.0.html
I don't see how you're needing a standard for every dozen figures though - what am I missing?!
Quote from: nikharwood on 20 February 2014, 11:32:18 PM
I don't see how you're needing a standard for every dozen figures though - what am I missing?!
Each banner/company/sotnia (i.e. group of 2-4 bases) could have it's own command element, with officer/standard bearer/musician. They make the units look better, but have no impact on the game.
Quote from: OldenBUA on 21 February 2014, 07:08:32 AM
Each banner/company/sotnia (i.e. group of 2-4 bases) could have it's own command element, with officer/standard bearer/musician. They make the units look better, but have no impact on the game.
Ah - now I see, that's fine - I'm bunging 10 figures on each base, so it's more like a standard for every 20-40 figures for me :)
Great, so I dont have to find that many banners, thats a big plus. :D :D Especially since there seems to be a total lack of them around, so it'll be only a banner on all my Colonels bases.
The more I look at this the more I'm convinced that I should have commited heresy and just gone for the 15mm option, that way it was £40 to North Star and thats your skirmish force done, megalomania strikes again, who wants to play at skirmish level when you can chuck a division on the table.
Quote from: GordonY on 21 February 2014, 10:52:12 AM
The more I look at this the more I'm convinced that I should have commited heresy and just gone for the 15mm option, that way it was £40 to North Star and thats your skirmish force done, megalomania strikes again, who wants to play at skirmish level when you can chuck a division on the table.
You won't regret this in 10mm...so much betterer ;)
Quote from: GordonY on 21 February 2014, 10:52:12 AM
The more I look at this the more I'm convinced that I should have commited heresy and just gone for the 15mm option, that way it was £40 to North Star and thats your skirmish force done, megalomania strikes again, who wants to play at skirmish level when you can chuck a division on the table.
While I have my Cossacks and Tatars in 15mm, I took the plunge and ordered figures for Polish and Swedish forces from Pendraken. And while I certainly like the big bases full of figures look, I decided to go the other way, and use smaller bases for that 'coffee table' travel set experience. Your £40 will only get you a small skirmish force. My £100 gets me two BIG skirmish forces, with (almost) all options covered. To get that in 15mm would cost almost three times as much.
If you want divisional level games with anything more than bare bones regiments, it will start to add up quickly.