Hi All,
I was just musing on the question on whether there is or has ever been a 'Golden Age' for our hobby ? I suppose with Salute approaching and seeing the myriad choice of different figure ranges, modelling materials, rule sets, standards of painting and games, are we currently experiencing the best times the hobby has ever known-even allowing for the present economic climate ?
Or...
Were things better in the past ? That is, has more choice meant better quality time spent ? Perhaps some might think it was better when there was less emphasis on turning out amazing armies and people just painted up and stuck em down, shoved them around a dinning table just covered in a green tablecloth !
Maybe I'm wrong, but I seem to remember there being more books written about wargames in the past and less concern about whether this or that figure had to be exact representation of what it was supposed to be. However, maybe it's to be welcomed that increased choice has enabled enthusiasts to replicate their ideas as accurately as possible to history.
Well, I haven't a definite view on the above, but in the spirit of free and interesting debate (for which reason I follow this forum ), I thought I'd open it up to others....
I think everyone who has been in the hobby for some time looks back on the past through rose-tinted specs. Yes, there was a pioneering spirit; yes, there were probably more people involved that have now fallen away; but compared to the old days there is so much more available today in the way of information and equipment. Like the man said - nostalgia ain't what it used to be.
That's a very good question H. :-\
My instant response is that it must be better now...(I think. ;D ;D ;D)
Cheers - Phil.
That is a great question...my initial thoughts are that past-times were somehow 'better' - but that is most definitely through rose-tinted specs...I guess it's a combination of those olden / golden days being more worry- and stress- free: my fondest gaming memories are probably as a schoolboy / student - when time lasted for ever and I actually had truly disposable income (and time) and wasn't subject to all kinds of external pressures that get in the way.
Communications tended to be more local, unsurprisingly, and therefore common ground seemed to be relatively easy to find. There were infinitely less distractions too - with TV channels in single figures & no internet...
Rules - whilst probably massively more complicated on the whole - seemed simpler somehow. There was far less figure choice - which, again, made things simpler - but not necessarily better; I've really enjoyed getting my South American Pacific War armies & they wouldn't have been do-able back in my mis-spent youth.
I love today's gaming world - but it does seem massively more fickle, un-friendly (at times...GW tourneys, TMP, Frothers etc), and there is way more dross about (as with any situation with increasing volume). The internet is wonderful for exposure to all the new shininess too.
Ultimately though, for me, it's what I want to take from this hobby that remain important: the painting, the reading & research, the gaming - but, most importantly, the people. :)
Tend to agree with Nik. It was simpler, fewer rules and smaller choice of figures.
Better? I don't think so. Figure quality has gone through the roof. Pendraken and other 10mm, Adler 6mm; all have better standard of modelling than 25mm figures available when I started (1972).
Rules - I think for a time new rules started to come out reflecting increased research and new ideas, but I am not sure there are many new ideas left. In the 80's I preferred US produced rules, as they seemed to me to have a better grasp of game play/flow.There certainly has been a movement to 'old school' rules and games recently, reflecting a feeling that maybe rules are in some cases becoming more complicated and as a consequence games become less enjoyable.
At the end of the day, if we still enjoy our games as much or more than we did in the 'Golden Age' (which by the way can be different for any of us), then that's all that matters in the end.
Chad
I think a lot boils down to how you felt about gaming 'then' and how you feel about it 'now'.
Back 'then' everything was less exact. A T34 could double up as a BT5 or BT7 because no one made a BT5/BT7. Roads made out of sandpaper, rivers out of blue crepe paper, trees out of toothpicks with sponge stuck on. Hedges made ouit of horsehair, rule books were either back of a fag packet or weighty photocopied tome's with rules amendments literally cut and pasted in with scissors and gloy glue...
Back 'then' I enjoyed wargaming.
'Now' everything is bespoke this and bespoke that. If you field a T34 as a BT5 you would be the laughing stock of you're wargames circle. Roads are resin or rubber as are rivers. Trees and hedges are state of the art masterpieces. Rules books are either grossly simplified or written in 'barkerese' and are full colour spreads of all sorts of shiny-shiny's. Rules amendments are Version II, III or even IV at another £30 per book...
'Now' I still enjoy wargaming as much as I did 'then'
A Golden Age of Wargaming?
What I can say is that Wargaming is the one hobby I have continued to pursue ever since I was a boy, and I cant see that stopping anytime soon
For me the golden age of wargaming, is when i get a game in, and at the end of the day we go homeward and had a jolly good time. Even if we didn't finish or we didn't get it quite right, we just had fub abd that's what counts.
The wonderfull part is, that 'my' golden age can come to me over and over again.
If you mean the golden age in availability, choice and research material, we are at it now. Because having limited choice makes it simple, but having lots and lots of choice, allows you to make it personal, upto 100% of what you want to do!
It is a "pass-time" so doing 100% what YOU want to do in that time is the reason you do it in the first place!
I think we're currently in the Golden Age for the hobby.
My chief memory of 20 years ago is wargames magazines with adverts for figures. They told you the size OR the price - never both. All with half a dozen line drawings.
People moan about the rules now - how they are too pretty.
Gentlemen, remember 'Challenger II', dense typeface on A5 pages, with no examples or diagrams.
I have no nostalgia for the old days (before 1980, say). Clumsy rules which were overwhelmingly Anglocentric if written in English, dreadfully limited range of figures, large scales, written orders, maps and cards and sticks with sliding markers and blast circles and canister triangles and periscopes...my God, how did we ever survive it?
20-25 years ago were the golden age for me gaming wise. I had time but no money. I remember many weekends crashing at Blake's house while we played SYW or that epic weekend when we traveled to Sunderland's house and the three of us played a DBA round robin tournament until 4 or 5 in the morning.
But I also consider the present as the golden age. I have money but no time. I can now obtain figures for almost any time period that suits my fancy. Rules are not limited by what the local shop has in stock.
The truly golden age for me would have to be one where I have the money and time to buy, paint and play any period.
So we are told this is the Golden Age
And lead is the reason for the games we play...
Quote from: Shecky on 12 April 2013, 04:18:34 AM
The truly golden age for me would have to be one where I have the money and time to buy, paint and play any period.
Hear, hear. =D>
As one of the younger ones here (34 soon) I have started in 1989. There have been many changes to the better but also to the worse. I will not sum this up as to each is own suggests we all may have different opinion about particular issues. Secondly as my blame inevitably goes to a large extent on the obvious company (yes they did do a lot of good things as well).
In summary I think it is what YOU as the games makes of the situation. It is essentially YOUR choice.
You have plenty of figures and scales to choose from.
Same goes for Accessories.
Same goes for rulesets.
Also goes for your choice of gaming venue and audience.
Pricing (besides one or two suspects) is generally affordable so you can play different systems. I currently have over 120,000 points in about 40 armies across more than 10 gaming systems. And I tend to enlarge that. I can choose my opponents to the point where I only play with enjoyable people with fair balanced rules and great figures. My gaming venue will feed me some acceptable chow and the drinks are affordable.
What is not to like about that?
On the other hand: Confined into undersized shops with 12 year olds playing with a (pardon my english) ruleset that is not good enough to wipe my rear with it I would probably feel miserable. But then again it is peoples' choice to accept such situation or not.
For my 2p, Id say its getting better every year for choice of miniatures in all scales and periods. But for rules sets 2000 to 2009ish was the latest peak. I think the recent release of so many different rules sets will water the hobby down. Not long ago you could build an army for your period etc go to your local club and get a game, in 28s it would be WAB, in 15s any of the DBX type sets and 10s/6s Warmaster. Everybody played more or less the same rules. The tournament scene was the same with lots of entrants in their chosen set. Forums where buzzing with news reviews and ideas weather it be the WAB fourm, Fanaticus etc. Nowadays everybody is playing something different look at the posts for tournie entrants its now a few players for WAB, a few for WAC a few for COE etc etc. When go go to clubs there are now clubs within clubs because everybody's playing something different, you get a couple of people playing WAC a couple playing Impetus a few playing something else a few playing Saga etc etc. To much choice and no focus every body moving on to the next shiney rule set before getting used to the last. rules implosion due me thinks.
Hmm that went on a bit longer than I thought :)
Jason
Better up the price to 6p.
At present, we may be in the golden age, but I do believe that the best is yet to come.
Bryan
Wargaming used to be the preserve of 'gentlemen of quality' as the late Peter Cushing (yes, he was one of us) once put it in an interview. That aspect with everything it entails seems to have gone and may never be regained.
There is a certain nostalgia surrounding old school wargaming that will probably never fade.
Cheers,
Aart
Indeed Aart, and to add a notch such wargaming must, imho, be distinguished from more widely spread wargaming games.
A further note on rulesets you guys have a fair point but then again rulesets evolve and sometimes the hobby scne might evolve a little different from where the rules are heading to. It would be a bit too easy to nail it down on personal taste but I guess SOME individuality is in every ruleset.
I am sure most of you will agree that a "good" ruleset
-is balanced
-well written
-EASY TO UNDERSTAND AND PLAY
-yet very detailed (covers everything)
-and affordable.
We also agree such ruleset is unlikely to exist. Someone will find some criticism to almost everything. The only problem I have with so many rulesets being available is as you said the fractioning of the gamers due to the expenditure in both money (to buy) and time (to understand).
Random thoughts as follows:
- In a way I miss the sheer simplicity of the games we played as teenagers in the long summer holidays. Simple Airfix WWII rules and a few boxes of figures and tanks. Our imaginations made up for our lack of knowledge etc. It was fun! My Dads old Airfix magazines were read avidly over and over again for ideas etc.
- It was great to have just one rulebook. No supplements ad infinitum. I find this one of the most annoying things about the hobby these days (see below).
- I think the whole wargaming scene is over commercialised, but then I'm probably being very naive here. Every rulebook seems to come out as a coffee table tome with future supplements promised. Thank God for the likes of BKC and Dux Bellorum.
- There are so many rulesets out there now that it is bewildering. Do new rulesets mean they are any better than what came before? Sometimes less-is-more?
- It is great to be able to get information on any period, no matter how obscure, at the click of a mouse button. But this distraction can come at a price. Where as before we played only a few periods at most, now we are like a kid in a sweet shop with too much choice.
- The sheer range of figures is overwhelming but the quality has come on leaps and bounds. The move to many more hard plastic figures is to be applauded.
- Again the quality of scenic products such as buildings and trees has come on leaps and bounds. Lovely looking wargames tables are now within everyones reach.
So are we now in a Golden Age? I think so with the exception of the recent proliferation in the type of rulesets as mentioned above.
Quote from: Steve J on 12 April 2013, 02:35:22 PM
My Dads old Airfix magazines were read avidly over and over again
My dad had a stash of magazines too which were looked at over and over and over and over and over again :-[ :d =P~
:-$ :-$ :-$ :-$
Quote from: Nosher on 12 April 2013, 03:15:26 PM
My dad had a stash of magazines too which were looked at over and over and over and over and over again :-[ :d =P~
:-$ :-$ :-$ :-$
Hahaha - Happy Friday Night, Nosher mate :D 8) :D
Quote from: nikharwood on 12 April 2013, 04:12:42 PM
Hahaha - Happy Friday Night, Nosher mate :D 8) :D
No worries mate ;)
The rather weird thing (which is probably too much info) is that I was helping him have a clear out recently when he moved to his new flat and the stash was still in situ. We had a few giggles about 'secret stashes' and agreed that a bit like smokers who think their partner doesn't know they are still smoking, the wife invariably knows and turns a blind eye or issues you with divorce papers! :'(
What did make us LOL though was the amount of 'hair' ladies had in those days compared with today. :o
Not that I'd know a I dont have a stash... :-[
This comes to mind, once again :D ;D :D
Are we getting into the realm of too much information at the moment ? ;) ;D
Cheers - Phil.
No, that classes as a public service announcement! :D
:D ;D ;)
These complaints about too much choice are uncomfortably like the arguments used by religious fundamentalists everywhere.
At the risk of getting too analytical, I think we may be mixing internal and external factors in a lot of this analysis. I remember with great fondness when I came across wargames in the mid-late sixties. I was young, enthusiastic, full of excitement for something new. It was a great time, and with not much money the lack of choice did not seem to matter to me. There was always more out there than I could afford, and so there was always something new to discover. Looking back it seems a golden age, but that was the time of life when almost everything was exciting. Today, I am older (much), but still enthusiastic. There is now a vastly greater amount out there, and I have the disposable income to access it. The Internet has revolutionised the hobby, and created a critical mass for the hobby which the isolated groups of wargamers of my youth never could.. The net has allowed me to make contacts and friends who share my enthusiasm all over the world, and to research into almost anything, no matter how esoteric it seems! Manufacturers listen to customers (some more than others) and the quality of products is nothing short of magnificent. The wargames world is, in my opinion, clearly in a Golden Age today, and we have nothing of any significance to complain about. It is brilliant! But I will retain that nostalgia fuelled affection for the late sixties and early seventies.
Mollinary
Quote from: mollinary on 13 April 2013, 07:45:46 AM
At the risk of getting too analytical, I think we may be mixing internal and external factors in a lot of this analysis. I remember with great fondness when I came across wargames in the mid-late sixties. I was young, enthusiastic, full of excitement for something new. It was a great time, and with not much money the lack of choice did not seem to matter to me. There was always more out there than I could afford, and so there was always something new to discover. Looking back it seems a golden age, but that was the time of life when almost everything was exciting. Today, I am older (much), but still enthusiastic. There is now a vastly greater amount out there, and I have the disposable income to access it. The Internet has revolutionised the hobby, and created a critical mass for the hobby which the isolated groups of wargamers of my youth never could.. The net has allowed me to make contacts and friends who share my enthusiasm all over the world, and to research into almost anything, no matter how esoteric it seems! Manufacturers listen to customers (some more than others) and the quality of products is nothing short of magnificent. The wargames world is, in my opinion, clearly in a Golden Age today, and we have nothing of any significance to complain about. It is brilliant! But I will retain that nostalgia fuelled affection for the late sixties and early seventies.
Mollinary
Except the lack of 10mm Mexicaans. :(
But that is what I said, FK, "we have nothing of any significance to complain about"! :D ;) ;)
Mollinary
Quote from: FierceKitty on 13 April 2013, 09:05:08 AM
Except the lack of 10mm Mexicaans. :(
Are they related to the Afrikaans? ;) :P :D
Mmm, I'm clearly reverting to my Boer stock.
How many Boers have you got sitting in that 'Got to be painted box' then FK ? :P ;) ;D
Cheers - Phil
Finished them ages ago. You don't want huge numbers of such dull troops (sorry, Granny!).
Hi all
From my own perspective I think we are now in the golden age of wargaming, there's an abundance of products out there far more than any one of us could use in one lifetime and it just seems to be getting better every year.
Take care
Andy
My golden age was 1979-1980. I had Peter Laing miniatures by the hundreds, and and 8x4 table that seemed never to be down. I had the Peninsula in 15mm and Waterloo in 20mm; Platea in 15mm and Arnhem in 20mm; no cares, a gorgeous fiancee and money coming in. All in all, a happy bunny.
I remember getting very excited by HaT industries. They offered a sweet shop of 20mm loveliness, and their ready made vehicles were a godsend to someone who always gets more glue on himself than on the model.
I have to say that for variety of figures, today is pretty golden, but I haven't found a commercial set of rules that I like for any period. I want Featherstone simplicity with added subtlety. I remember being quite surprised that a trio of Shermans could quite easily handle a trio of Panthers.
So, I would say that the age of innocence has passed (who else remembers Airfix figures with Plasticene headgear, pine cone trees and chalk roads?) and we have moved to a time of plentiful information, figures and rulesets. It's not better, just different.
Now, or the five minutes when my old club went from playing 7th to DBA en masse in an evening! ;D
Quote from: mad lemmey on 15 April 2013, 01:36:52 PM
Now, or the five minutes when my old club went from playing 7th to DBA en masse in an evening! ;D
That's a jump up the evolutionary ladder!
Quote from: FierceKitty on 16 April 2013, 03:26:51 AM
That's a jump up the evolutionary ladder!
Several links missing, I'd say. :-\