Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Right guys, here's a challenge!
My quest to paint the armies involved at Mars-La-Tours is nearly finished, I want to be able to refight the battle by my 40th in October. I can do the entire Eastern End of the battlefield (as far as Tromville Copses)  :!!
I can field ALL of Prussian III, X Corps, 5th & 6th Cavalry Divisions, plus Hessian Division, and 16th Division VIII Corps and 4th Cavalry Division(to be finished soon).
For the French I can field all of the Guard, and all of II and VI Corps (that were actually there), plus all the cavalry including the forces that fought at Vron.

What do I do next?  :-\
Do I need a break from Mars-La-Tours? Should I finish the battle troops or do some of the Gravelotte/Saint Privat forces or have a break and do something else? There's an awful lot of French still to do!  :-&

I like o see a man suffer  :d

more french please sir

I'd go for something a bit different so voted for Saxons. I find it's always good to have a complete break on something and then come back to it when the muse is upon you.

As an example I have two Dux Bellorum warbands in their early stages of basing plus some WWII Italian units, with the odd plane thrown into the mix. So depending upon the time I have free I will focus upon one of the above.

Given that you want a bit of a break, I voted for French 1st Corps, because it involves all of the Zoauve and Turco regiments, so a bit of variety!

Bon chance,

Mollinary

I voted Bavarians. I always find them to be a good break from painting Prussian Blue.

I voted something else. Whenever i am sick of painting the same uniform, i paint some scenery. I know it's not a formation, but you have to admit that scenery plays as big a part as any formation that is on the table!

Building and painting it also gives you more room for improvisation and 'freestyling', wich takes the pressure of painting the same colours over and over again.

Feel free to ignore if you really only wanted to paint formations ;)

Ive voted Bavarians just because I love their uniform.

What size units are you doing and what rules?

Sean

Quote from: Windle Poons on 15 March 2013, 11:50:05 PM
Ive voted Bavarians just because I love their uniform.

What size units are you doing and what rules?

Sean

Maybe this answers some of your questions, excellent armies!!
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,6703.0.html

Doesn't it depend on what the balance of forces is? If you've got a truckload of French and only a corporal's guard of Prussians then it's got to be something Germanic. If the Germans are light then I'd go for the Bavarians - they're like nothing else on the battlefield. If it's the French then, like Mollinary, I'd go for all those colourful Zouaves and Turcos in 1st Corps.

Or you could stick a pin in the list....  :D

Go for MacMahon's 1st Corps.
1) Lovely Turcos and Zouaves
2) You get to fight Froeschwiller, good battle to game
3) You get an elite French Corps to fight with
4) Bavarians look pretty (though if you have an 1866 army you can, at a pinch and with a change of flags, substitute Saxons) but they're rubbish and will lie down, run away or malinger at the drop of a hat.

Gotta be the North African Corps IMHO (and remember to paint your Zouaves with bare, blackened feet as they sold their boots for drink on the night before the battle!)

Remember that 1870 Saxons are just Prussians with spiffy flags! ;D ;D

Mollinary

Yes, I thought the Saxons had been coerced into pickelhaubes and dark blue by 1870?

Indeed, however the Bavarians seemed to wear the forage cap as well as the wool crested helmet, so if you can avert your gaze from the white, black, yellow, red cap bands and cuffs (in my case easily achieved through the expedient of not wearing specs), slip the spiffy Saxon flags off the poles (mine are removable) and substitute with Bavarian, hey presto, four brigades of completely crap troops.

Andrew, just seen the 1866 book, looks lovely, will order my copy ASAP (is it true or just a cruel rumour that the unsigned copies are more valuable?).

Picked up a copy of Heidrich in Vienna last week, intact with all maps and charts, E36 !

... or, what if you bought command stands with crested helmets, then your substitution would have a bit more cred, just a thought ... I appear to be talking to myself here  :(

Just ordered sample packs of ACW Zouaves for 1870, can't stand my 'old' Pendraken ones, too flimsy, anyone else tried the ACW ones?

Hi Cam,

What a find!   Where did you get it, I keep looking but have never seen it on the Internet? Thanks for the book comment.  I am not sure (only a co-author after all) but I don't think it will actually be available until SALUTE on 20th April, so any adverts at present are likely to be pre-orders only.  Hard work to go from first rule mods and first games in August to sending it off to the publisher by end of February, but it was a very enjoyable experience - hope you like it when you get a copy. I am sure unsigned copies will be more valuable, therefore I can offer to unsign a copy for you at a special premium :D  :D  ;)

Mollinary

Quote from: cameronian on 16 March 2013, 10:53:34 AM

Just ordered sample packs of ACW Zouaves for 1870, can't stand my 'old' Pendraken ones, too flimsy, anyone else tried the ACW ones?

Yes, for my Guards Zouaves,
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/madlemmey/Guard%201870s%20Voltigeurs/009.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/madlemmey/Guard%201870s%20Voltigeurs/008.jpg)
Packs are wrong, these are the turbaned variety and their standards need an Eagle which I had to convert, or you need to add the normal standard bearer, but he's very upright compared to the charging figures; otherwise they are superb. I have two packs of the turban-less figures already, just in case they get into action again in my 1870 Campaign.

Quote from: mollinary on 16 March 2013, 11:23:36 AM
Hi Cam,

What a find!   Where did you get it, I keep looking but have never seen it on the Internet? Thanks for the book comment.  I am not sure (only a co-author after all) but I don't think it will actually be available until SALUTE on 20th April, so any adverts at present are likely to be pre-orders only.  Hard work to go from first rule mods and first games in August to sending it off to the publisher by end of February, but it was a very enjoyable experience - hope you like it when you get a copy. I am sure unsigned copies will be more valuable, therefore I can offer to unsign a copy for you at a special premium :D  :D  ;)

Mollinary

On second thoughts an appropriately inscribed copy will suffice  ;)

Couldn't believe it myself, turned up on a German version of Abebooks, www.booklooker.de, and there it was, in a little bookshop in Vienna, E36 inc delivery, woo hoo. Putting an AAR up this weekend on our Feb game with final rule tweaks, just been so busy recently. Hope all well with you, been re-reading my Howard, Ascoli and Wawro, feel a bout of 1870 coming on.

Quote from: mad lemmey on 16 March 2013, 11:41:40 AM
Yes, for my Guards Zouaves,
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/madlemmey/Guard%201870s%20Voltigeurs/009.jpg)
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/madlemmey/Guard%201870s%20Voltigeurs/008.jpg)
Packs are wrong, these are the turbaned variety and their standards need an Eagle which I had to convert, or you need to add the normal standard bearer, but he's very upright compared to the charging figures; otherwise they are superb. I have two packs of the turban-less figures already, just in case they get into action again in my 1870 Campaign.

Lovely figures as always Lemmey, they look the biz, I'll paint a few samples up when I get them and send them to Fernando (along with my Guard Grenadiers and Voltigeurs, four regiments of Chasseurs D'Afrique plus exra line  :D )

Ah Lemmey, forgot to ask, how do you manage to post your photos, every time I attempt it I get a message saying file loo big.

How big are the original files you're trying to post C ?
Cheers - Phil.

Cam,

You are a lucky,  lucky man!  Given my four years living in Vienna, I have probably even visited the source!   D...!  Thirty six Euros.  So now we expect your book on the Swiepwald to be published before the year is out.  I hope so, as John and I are planning a mega Swiepwald battle for the centrepiece of a WiH Koniggratz book, assuming Richard Brown of Ken Trotman is willing to publish it after all the palaver involved in getting this one to the printers.  I think there are a lot of good scenarios of all sizes in the battle, and I would love to do one at twice the size of the ones in this book, ie wouldn't it be fabulous to do the Swiepwald with 100 figure battalions?   Maybe that way madness lies?!

Mollinary

PS.  I retire in the summer, so masses of opportunity to indulge my 1866-1870 interests. :D :D :D

Quote from: cameronian on 16 March 2013, 02:08:06 PM
Ah Lemmey, forgot to ask, how do you manage to post your photos, every time I attempt it I get a message saying file loo big.

I always resize to 640 x 480 after cropping in either Microsoft photomanager or just on photobucket.

Quote from: Techno on 16 March 2013, 02:10:49 PM
How big are the original files you're trying to post C ?
Cheers - Phil.

Er ... about 6" x 8" ... my 14yr old is on the case  :-[

Yes I know, I couldn't believe my luck, it must have gone up for sale overnight, falling to pieces (glued leaves in a soft back) but in superb condition - if you know what I mean. Retiring in the summer, good for you, I will refrain from my usual refrain (you know, the one about the BIG book ... but like I said, I'll refrain  ;) ) Are you going on DZ's 1870 tour?

Regrettably no, my Godson is graduating from Sandhurst (God willing) during the tour. This is an event I have no intention of missing. I am, however, planning on doing a recce with John to cover the Frontier battles.    After all, I did do this tour in 2011,and would thoroughly recommend it.

Mollinary

Did it with Richard in 2004, would prefer to have that as my definitive memory somehow, a way of remembering him I suppose. Frank Henderson's Froeschwiller is now available at Helion, its the companion to Spichern which is excellent. Enjoy the recce  :)

http://edinburghwargames.com/Journal%2040.htm

AAR of an old Froeschwiller game from 2009, scroll down, crap photos I'm afraid.

Some nice pictures on that site Cameronian!!  =D> =D>

QuoteI retire in the summer, so masses of opportunity to indulge my 1866-1870 interests.

I envy you but but glad you will have time to indulge your interests. I've got another 18 years left before I can claim my state pension :(. If we can pay our mortgage off this year then I might be able to reduce my weekly hours which would be good :)

Quote from: Steve J on 16 March 2013, 08:34:52 PM
I envy you but but glad you will have time to indulge your interests. I've got another 18 years left before I can claim my state pension :(. If we can pay our mortgage off this year then I might be able to reduce my weekly hours which would be good :)

I got at least 31 years left  :'( :'( :'(

Buuuut this means i'm still fresh and have young bones  :P

Quote from: petercooman on 16 March 2013, 08:51:27 PM
Buuuut this means i'm still fresh and have young bones  :P

That's right.
Rub it in, why don't you ? :P
(Damn young whipper-snapper....mutter, grumble, moan..etc. ;))
Cheers - Phil.

Quote from: petercooman on 16 March 2013, 08:51:27 PM
I got at least 31 years left  :'( :'( :'(

Buuuut this means i'm still fresh and have young bones  :P

Yeah, but it's better not to be compelled to trudge off to earn your daily bread every day. I should have retired years ago but I couldn't find the rich widow.   :D

QuoteBuuuut this means i'm still fresh and have young bones

I can just about remember feeling fresh and having young bones  :-\ :'(.

Quote from: Steve J on 17 March 2013, 06:05:20 PM
I can just about remember feeling fresh and having young bones  :-\ :'(.

Get yourself a younger woman and have young bones any time you like ... oops.

I've split some of the posts on this one, and created a new discussion: http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7169.0.html (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,7169.0.html)

8)

Paint Bavarians, the French need the target practice.

It's looking like Bavarians!  ;D
Better get an order prepared for Salute!

Looking at their orbat, it appears they split regiments down into two battalions, then the third was merged with another to put a unit in the field (example below). Anyone know (off hand) their relative strengths compared to Prussian forces. I know they had reorganised in 1868...

You start with a full division like this:
1st Infantry Division, Lt Gen von Stephan DC
Life Inf Regt, I & II Btns
1st Infantry Regt
2nd Jager Bn
2nd Infantry Regt I & II Btns
11th Infantry Regt
4th Jager Btn
Divisional troops
9th Jager Btn
3rd Chevaulager Regt
1st + 3rd Lt Batteries, 1st Div, 1st Arty Regt
5th + 7th Hv Batteries, 1st Div, 1st Art Regt

Hive off troops thusly and you get this:
4th Infantry Division, Lt Gen von Bothmer DC
5th Infantry Regt
9th Infantry Regt
6th Jager Bn
III Btn, 1st Infantry Regt & III Btn, 5th Infantry Regt
I Btn, 7th Infantry Regt & III Btn, 14th Infantry Rgt
5th Jager Btn
Divisional troops
10th Jager Btn
2nd Chevaulager Regt
1st + 2nd Lt Batteries, 4th Div, 4th Arty Regt
5th + 6th Hv Batteries, 4th Div, 4th Arty Regt

Can anyone shed any light on this?
A confused Lemmey!

Good choice Lemmey but for God's sake get the flags right or we'll NEVER hear the end of it.

 =O

To be honest, I was just going to buy the new flag sheets!  :D

Phew! Potential disaster averted ;).

Quote from: mad lemmey on 26 March 2013, 09:19:37 AM
=O

To be honest, I was just going to buy the new flag sheets!  :D

Be sure to run it past Mollinary first, the oak leaf cluster may be an acorn short ....  ;)

 =O =O =O =O =O =O =O =O =O =O =O 8-}

They are brilliant, Maciek and I cooperated closely on their prodcution.

Mollinary

Quote from: mollinary on 26 March 2013, 02:05:01 PM
They are brilliant, Maciek and I cooperated closely on their prodcution.

Mollinary

I should have known.

Congats on the captaincy Cameroinian, your round in the bar tonight!  8)

Greetings

Quote from: mad lemmey on 25 March 2013, 09:31:16 AM
It's looking like Bavarians!  ;D
Better get an order prepared for Salute!

Looking at their orbat, it appears they split regiments down into two battalions, then the third was merged with another to put a unit in the field (example below). Anyone know (off hand) their relative strengths compared to Prussian forces. I know they had reorganised in 1868...

[snip]

Can anyone shed any light on this?
A confused Lemmey!

Not off-hand but I'll try to look at vol 1 of the German General Staff History tonight if I can.

Regards

Edward

Quote from: mad lemmey on 26 March 2013, 02:37:40 PM
Congats on the captaincy Cameroinian, your round in the bar tonight!  8)

Indeed, will it be in the London Gazette, I hope so  ;D

Thanks Edward, that would be wonderful.  ;)

Greetings

The German General Staff history vol 1 (GGSH) notes (p37) that the 1868 Bavarian reorganisation decreased the number of companies from six to four and increased their strength.  The cavalry regiments were reduced to 10 with 5 squadrons with 125 horses per squadron.  Batteries were formed of 6 guns with 14 new batteries giving a planned total of 4 regiments each of 8 field, 4 garrison and 1 park battery.

The field army (p43) had 50 bns infantry inc Jagers totalling in round numbers 50,000, 40 squadrons totalling 5,500 cavalry (not as strong as Prussian) and 192 guns.

The Landwehr battalions in garrison were calculated as 650 but later increased to 819.

Looking at the relevant OB appendices (p142-147) the odd allocations of battalions are because the brigades are 6 battalions each but the jäger battalions are spread across the divisions.  The effect is that the excess line battalions are reallocated, mainly to 8th Brigade in 4th Divison (3/1st, 3/5th, 1/7th, 3/11th, 3/14th).   The appendix gives battery designations, commanders etc if useful.

I'll have a hunt around for more in due course.

Regards

Edward

Brilliant, thanks. 8)

Looking at the OoB, it would appear that each Bavarian brigade originally comprised seven battalions - 2 x 3 battalion line regiments and a battalion of jagers. In order to conform to the Prussian organiseation of six battalion brigades the junior line regiments in each formation lost a battalion, which was used to make up brigades elsewhere.

As for crap troops - every general needs a proportion of scum to prove his generalship. The wargamers' aptitude for cherry-picking only the best troops never happened in real life.  :P

Quote from: Hertsblue on 27 March 2013, 10:28:30 AM
Looking at the OoB, it would appear that each Bavarian brigade originally comprised seven battalions - 2 x 3 battalion line regiments and a battalion of jagers. In order to conform to the Prussian organiseation of six battalion brigades the junior line regiments in each formation lost a battalion, which was used to make up brigades elsewhere.

...

I'd agree but from a quick glance the 1866 order of battle (ie before the reorganisation) appears also to have been six battalion brigades with some line regiments at two and some at three battalions.

Regards

Edward

Quote from: Hertsblue on 27 March 2013, 10:28:30 AM
As for crap troops - every general needs a proportion of scum to prove his generalship. The wargamers' aptitude for cherry-picking only the best troops never happened in real life.  :P

Well said, Ray  :)