Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Non-Wargaming Discussion => Chat & News => Topic started by: Techno on 08 March 2013, 07:06:17 AM

Title: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: Techno on 08 March 2013, 07:06:17 AM
Inspired by a comment in a recent thread.

What sayings do we all think we know the origins of ? :-\
But which are myths ?
Which sayings would we like to know the origins of ? :-\

For example.
"Freeze the balls off a brass monkey."
A naval expression from the times when ships has brass trays (monkeys) on the deck to hold a small pyramid of cannon balls. (?)
I'm now told this explanation is a load of b*lls itself !  :-[

"The whole nine yards."
After believing for years that this had origins in an American Football commentary.....
I was told 'for definite'.....This referred to the length of some machine gun belts. (A Spitfire ?)
But is the 'definitive' answer correct ? There seems to be some debate.

Offers, Gents ?

Cheers - Phil.




Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: OldenBUA on 08 March 2013, 08:00:31 AM
Ah, the wonderful and respectable study of etymology!

You could have a look here: http://www.phrases.org.uk/index.html

- http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/cold%20enough%20to%20freeze%20the%20balls%20off%20a%20brass%20monkey.html

- http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-whole-nine-yards.html

I like the idea that it's all due to CANOE (the Committee to Ascribe a Naval Origin to Everything)  :D
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: FierceKitty on 08 March 2013, 08:38:01 AM
Nine yards = sailing ship with all sails set, using three yard(arm)s each on three masts. Sounds plausible to me.
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: OldenBUA on 08 March 2013, 08:58:40 AM
Quote from: FierceKitty on 08 March 2013, 08:38:01 AM
Nine yards = sailing ship with all sails set, using three yard(arm)s each on three masts. Sounds plausible to me.

Really. Maybe you should write to the guy that maintains these pages:

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/the-whole-whole-nine-yards-enchilida.html

:D
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: Fenton on 08 March 2013, 09:15:45 AM
Quote from: FierceKitty on 08 March 2013, 08:38:01 AM
Nine yards = sailing ship with all sails set, using three yard(arm)s each on three masts. Sounds plausible to me.

I always thought it came from the average  length in pages that some of the  discussions on the TMP Napoleonic thread have about  how important Blucher was at Waterloo
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: Hertsblue on 08 March 2013, 10:55:56 AM
The term "cock up" was always supposed to be derived from the days of sail when yards that were not parallel to the deck were said to be "cocked". Personally, I've always subscribed to the general view that it means something rather more basic.  :d
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: Fenton on 08 March 2013, 11:32:57 AM
So nothing to do with chickens escaping then?
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: FierceKitty on 08 March 2013, 12:01:20 PM
But the literal phallic elevation wouldn't suggest a malfunction, surely?
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: Techno on 08 March 2013, 12:15:27 PM
Quote from: Fenton on 08 March 2013, 09:15:45 AM
I always thought it came from the average  length in pages that some of the  discussions on the TMP Napoleonic thread have about  how important Blucher was at Waterloo

I LIKE that one ! ;D
Cheers - Phil.
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: SV52 on 08 March 2013, 12:45:29 PM
How about these from two different sources...

"'The term 'cock up' originates to medieval archery. One of the three feathers on an arrow is a cock's feather. If the arrow was incorrectly placed on the bow for drawing and release, the arrow would go off course because of the cock's feather being up and therefore the arrow positioned wrongly on the bow. This was then known as a 'cock up'."

"The arrows of traditional English long bows had three feathers. One of these, named the "cock" feather, had to be positioned away from the line of the bow string, otherwise it would hit the string and affect the flight of the arrow to produce a "cock up"."

Any experts on medieval archery?  I'm sure there must be  ;)
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: Steve J on 08 March 2013, 04:13:38 PM
Quote
"The arrows of traditional English long bows had three feathers. One of these, named the "cock" feather, had to be positioned away from the line of the bow string, otherwise it would hit the string and affect the flight of the arrow to produce a "cock up"."

Yep, that's right and the correct origin for the term.
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: Techno on 08 March 2013, 04:17:18 PM
The stuff you learn here ! :-bd :-bd
Now I'm going to have a rant in a new thread. :) ;)
Cheers - Phil.
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: barbarian on 08 March 2013, 04:54:45 PM
Another explanation implying a beaver.
"http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/cock-up.html
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: Hertsblue on 09 March 2013, 10:03:24 AM
Quote from: FierceKitty on 08 March 2013, 12:01:20 PM
But the literal phallic elevation wouldn't suggest a malfunction, surely?

No more so than "balls up".
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: FierceKitty on 09 March 2013, 11:13:45 AM
Quote from: Hertsblue on 09 March 2013, 10:03:24 AM
No more so than "balls up".
A great deal less. Some of these things should be up in the optimum circumstances.
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: Nellkyn on 11 March 2013, 05:11:09 PM
Quote from: SV52 on 08 March 2013, 12:45:29 PM
Any experts on medieval archery?  I'm sure there must be  ;)
I'm not an expert on medieval archery but I know a little bit. The term 'cock feather' wasn't used until the Victorian era of archery. 
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: Steve J on 11 March 2013, 07:04:09 PM
Lee at Wye Valley archery centre told us that it was medieval, but I could have remembered it incorrectly. Wouldn't by the first time and I doubt the last either!
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: Hertsblue on 12 March 2013, 09:19:39 AM
OK, the term "posh", meaning superior (with overtones of snobishness) was supposed to have been an acronym for "port out, starboard home", the optimum cabin booking for a sea voyage to the far east. But, I've recently seen the explanation de-bunked as P & O, the line that had a virtual monopoly on the run, have stated that they never ever used the term. Can't remember what the alternative explanation was though.
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: ryman1 on 20 March 2013, 04:05:29 PM
Following Techno's original naval theme - how about 'on the fiddle'.

It derives from the square wooden plates seamen ate from, the fiddle was a band of wood (a raised edge) nailed into the plates top edges to ensure that food didn't spill off when the ship rolled.
When a sailor tried to gather more than his alloted ration by bribing the cook with half a tot of rum(or whatever) he was considered to be 'on the fiddle' as his extra ration would have rested on and more oft than not spilled over the fiddle, hence the term 'on the fiddle'.

To clarify for our foreign friends - today in modern English, 'on the fiddle' means trying to get something you're not entitled to or attempting to come by goods in an underhand manner.

It may be a hybrid of celt, norse, latin, saxon, french etc and they have definitely added benefit, but taken alone, our language must be the richest on earth and aside from painting, it's definitely up there as a top interest.
Title: Re: 'Strange' sayings & their derivations ?
Post by: Techno on 20 March 2013, 05:03:02 PM
Good one.
Cheers - Phil.