I've just taken delivery of the Warlord rules family thanks a special(ish) offer on their site. Yesterday, instead of painting as I'd promised myself, I plonked myself down with a mug of tea and Pike&Shotte for a first read through. At first glance they seem quite playable, simple and fun - I'll see if this is true when I finally get the Parlementarians painted up and on the table :)
However, I was a little taken aback to read the following on page 18 under the Models heading: "... 28-30 mm models to illustrate the book. This is the most popular size amongst serious collectors of model armies because individual pieces are sufficiently large and detailed to reward careful painting. Right at the end of the book it is then mentioned that the rules have been played with 10mm armies and have worked well.
It would seem that none of the authors has taken a look at the pics on this site re the careful painting, detail etc. :o
It would also seem that if you collect smaller sizes then you are by definition not serious. Over the last 25 years or so I have built up 17 armies (16.25 painted :)) in 15mm and currently have six in 10mm and consider myself a fairly serious collector (my wife just thinks I'm bonkers =)), so I htought the comment was a bit cheeky.
Miffed of Luxembourg :(
Well, heaven protect us from the excessively serious in what should be a relaxing and enjoyable hobby. I'm happy to be flippant and kitten-like.
Fluffybrain in Bangkok.
Though I have to add that if it's armies, rather than individual soldiers, that you want, the smaller scales are pretty dam' obviously the way for the serious to go. Having twenty-five superbly painted toy soldiers is hardly a convincing or serious simulation of an army, is it?
:'( I was going to make just about the same point!
28mm does indeed seem to be the popular scale for the 'let's paint a couple of figures and call it an army' wargaming style.
QuoteWell, heaven protect us from the excessively serious in what should be a relaxing and enjoyable hobby. I'm happy to be flippant and kitten-like.
Take your point FK. I certainly get a lot of enjoyment out of it and assembling and painting the little fellows is a great antidote to a stressy work in the office.
BTW can you be flippant and fierce at the same time :-\
Only if you're a cat. Then it's mandatory. You can also look earnest and absurd at once, and do the most ridiculous things without losing your cool (exception: cats who forget to put their tongues away after grooming are just plain feline wallies!).
:-\
I don't think it matters which particular scale you use at all.
I think everyone above has just about said it all already.....Especially if you want larger armies.
Cheers - Phil.
I'll make a note for when we finally get some Pendraken rules done up, to make sure we add:
"... 10mm models have been used to illustrate the book. This is the most popular size amongst serious collectors of model armies because a group of 12 men is not a regiment, it's a pub crawl...."
:D
;)
Each to their own though, there's certainly enough variety in the market now for everybody to find something they like. Warlord aren't alone in pushing their own scale, maybe the wording is a bit out in this case, but it comes down to the rules being an extension of the sales vehicle.
8)
"... 10mm models have been used to illustrate the book. This is the most popular size amongst serious collectors of model armies because a group of 12 men is not a regiment, it's a pub crawl...."
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
28 MM was what lured me into the fold.
Being a "Closet Victorian" I found the African Explorer range from Foundry quite nice even if I didnt get any figures from it, just in and browsed them on and off for a decade or more. I then went forward and bought some hundreds OG 28 MM for a NWF campaing, then I found the VBCW crowd and coinciding with Hols in the UK, I got to actually oogle stuff in the flesh down at Bovington in 11 and decided that 20MMs would be sufficent and cheap. Now I`m hanging around here, with some painted 28MM colonials, some more painted 20mm VBCW factions and a Sudan campaing on order from Pendraken.
I stear by the "Ohh, nice, shiny and quirky" mantra and given that I`m part of a one man show in (somewhat) Historic Wargaming over here, I do what I fancy. Get to read an awful amount of Brit Mil history books, though but should have given over a proper amount of time to paint instead of dallying with a ton of other hobbies, some slumbering and some high activity, freeing paint time should probably have been used on PT, but thats another topic. :-\
Could it be that they want to link the rules to the figure range they sell?
25s (pubcrawl in the Peninsula)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lasthussar/sets/72157608394361116/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lasthussar/sets/72157608394361116/)
10s
WSS
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lasthussar/sets/72157625282250497/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lasthussar/sets/72157625282250497/)
To be fair there are the same number of figures as Warlord recommend for the Battalions in BP. Just that my entire army of 18 bns, and 15 regiments can fit on a normal table. And costs 1/3 of the cost of plastics, and a 1/12th the cost of metal. And doesn't rip my arms out of the sockets.
ECW
http://www.flickr.com/photos/lasthussar/sets/72157621671630377/ (http://www.flickr.com/photos/lasthussar/sets/72157621671630377/)
The rules call for 4 15mm figures on one of those bases. Because 8 men make a pike block...
It doesn't matter to me. All i care about is that i have one of the best hobbies in the world, whatever scale i use ;)
People argue about scales everytime, i have 20 mm ,10 mm 6 mm and 28 mm and i like each of them for what they are. No scale makes me feel more serious. (off course 28mm is for skirmishing though :D )
I'd rather have an army or warband or squad or whatever in any scale than hang infront of an xbox or playstation all day like most of my friends.
@ last hussar: Great stuff, even the pubcrawl ;)
Quote from: Bernie on 27 January 2013, 04:10:20 PM
Could it be that they want to link the rules to the figure range they sell?
. Wow! Now that would be a wizard wheeze, do you think anyone else has thought of it? Leon? :-\ :-\ :-\ 8)
Mollinary
It's another facet of the heightist bias that abounds in all walks of life. Big is good. Big is honourable. Big is trustworthy. Bah, humbug. >:(
Vertically Challenged of Cheshunt.
Quote from: Hertsblue on 28 January 2013, 10:31:04 AM
It's another facet of the heightist bias that abounds in all walks of life. Big is good. Big is honourable. Big is trustworthy. Bah, humbug. >:(
Vertically Challenged of Cheshunt.
Big
is good. As an African, I know what I'm talking about. ;)
Quote from: OldenBUA on 27 January 2013, 12:42:22 PM
28mm does indeed seem to be the popular scale for the 'let's paint a couple of figures and call it an army' wargaming style.
Well said.
I started with 28mm, then went 6mm, too small, then 15/18mm, not enough figures in a unit. So I came down to 10mm, and when you realise that you are buying 30+ figures, with more detail than some 15/28mm, often for the same or less price per 28mm fig...
I love 28mm skirmish (Saga Legends of the Old West etc), but I cannot see them as UNITS! Two of the Shrewsbury gamers, back in the 80s, used to use them for Gush, beautifully painted, but how can they be 3000 men in real life with 15 figures!! 15mm was better, but even POW had only 9-12 fig per unit; I love the rules, but it never LOOKED right.. Modern rules are better, 18-24 per unit (FoGN, Lesalle), DBMM also allows big assemblies of troops. But every time I get my FPW or AWI the guys at the clubv always say how much like realy regiments they look.
Some of the guys even play with 42mm, one figure per unit, as representational units now...
So, yes I'm serious about 10mm, but I'm not SERIOUS!
Yours
Mr Slightly-taller-than-average-but-slightly-perplexed-of-Leighton-Buzzard
Quote from: Hertsblue on 28 January 2013, 10:31:04 AM
It's another facet of the heightist bias that abounds in all walks of life. Big is good. Big is honourable. Big is trustworthy. Bah, humbug. >:(
Vertically Challenged of Cheshunt.
From my lofty height of 6`8", I call humbug on your humbug.... :d ;D
What's the weather like up there ? ;)
Cheers - Phil.
Its always sunny here, over the clouds. The air is a bit thin and chilly, though. :D
Ohhh, nice nostrils! ;D
Quote from: mad lemmey on 28 January 2013, 11:10:01 AM
Some of the guys even play with 42mm, one figure per unit, as representational units now...
One visitor to our club some time ago expressed the opinion that bases were what actually defined units and that the figures were merely handles with which to move them about. Naturally, we burned him at the stake.... :d
Quote from: Hertsblue on 29 January 2013, 01:21:30 PM
One visitor to our club some time ago expressed the opinion that bases were what actually defined units and that the figures were merely handles with which to move them about. Naturally, we burned him at the stake.... :d
:D ;D :D
Quote from: FierceKitty on 27 January 2013, 12:37:11 PM
Having twenty-five superbly painted toy soldiers is hardly a convincing or serious simulation of an army, is it?
No its not. But not all of us play with 25 figure armies. See link below.
https://sites.google.com/site/tringwargames/batreps/fornost (https://sites.google.com/site/tringwargames/batreps/fornost)
Quote from: mad lemmey on 28 January 2013, 03:33:29 PM
Ohhh, nice nostrils! ;D
Thanks, I find no need to let the nosehair do a passable imitation of hermit crabs... :D
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 29 January 2013, 09:55:25 PM
No its not. But not all of us play with 25 figure armies. See link below.
https://sites.google.com/site/tringwargames/batreps/fornost (https://sites.google.com/site/tringwargames/batreps/fornost)
Yes, I remember well the days of hauling boxes of 25mm figures to club meetings for large-scale battles. It was the beginning of my back problems, I believe. :'(
QuoteYes, I remember well the days of hauling boxes of 25mm figures to club meetings for large-scale battles.
When we were at school my mate and I always wanted one of those metal tool boxes to put our figures in (army would be too grand a word for several hundred arbitrarily organised and painted Airfix Naps ;D)
But we never got one :(
I've still got one. It weighed more than the figures! =)
I remember the days when all we could get was an erratic supply of those dreadful Airfix figures, unable to hold paint and in innumerable silly poses. We played determinedly with Grant and Featherstone rules too.
I wonder whether standards have climbed more in rules or in figures?
We used Featherstone's rules with all units being 20 figs, preferably of the same pose, preferably not too silly. This was a bit tricky given some of the French poses for their Waterloo infantry.
We thought we were the bees' knees when Paul bought a unit of metal Brunswickers from a 6th former in the school wargames scoiety. Very reluctant to take casualties, that unit, and spent most of its time looking on in disdain as its plastic relatives got stuck in. Very, very shiny uniforms I recall.
Remember that chap in the ridiculous bent knees pose, looking as if a passing horse had kicked him between wind and wave?
Yes; two of them in a box IIRC, so for us 9 boxes to make a unit of gonadally challenged line infantry. Elite or effete? :-\
My favourite was the guy at march attack with only one foot on the base. Four in a pack so a Featherstone French unit was a little more economically viable for schoolkids, if you could find a shop that sold them of course.
And the infuriating practice of wasting one of the small number of mounted on a figure waving a sabre from behind a fallen horse!
No wonder I'm never tempted to revisit Napoleonics!
It's only thanks to 10mm that I've decided to revisit the period in a pathetic attempt to recapture the fun of those Saturday afternoons before the wrestling started on ITV and all thoughts of freeing the Peninsula vanished from our heads.
Quote from: Malbork on 30 January 2013, 10:54:10 AM
We used Featherstone's rules with all units being 20 figs, preferably of the same pose, preferably not too silly. This was a bit tricky given some of the French poses for their Waterloo infantry.
You must have been using the same rules as we were. I have a feeling they were the old London Wargames Section set, adapted by DF. Figures were always two to a 1" square base, but mounted diagonally to pad out the unit. When metal figures did appear they were mainly pirated Minifigs (You didn't hear that from me!). ;)
You might be right about the rules. I think ours came from the DF book Wargames or The Wargame - the one with the three simple sets for ancients, H&M and modern plus the (for their time) sophisticated Lionel Tarr rules for the Eastern Front.
We had great fun, enjoyed the games and didn't give two hoots about whether this type of musket ball flew faster than that one or whether we should only have one battery per 9 regiments. All our 20 units were regiments, we'd never heard of battalions etc then :o
QuoteRemember that chap in the ridiculous bent knees pose, looking as if a passing horse had kicked him between wind and wave?
French bloke? I think he was supposed to be carrying a cannon ball.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 31 January 2013, 08:57:21 PM
French bloke? I think he was supposed to be carrying a cannon ball.
Wasn't there a separate French artillery set? I think the one FK means had a musket across what sixties rugby commentators always referred to a the "lower abdomen". Definitely sculpted for ease of moulding. =)
You're right HB; Cannonball boy was in the French artillery set.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 30 January 2013, 10:21:31 AM
I wonder whether standards have climbed more in rules or in figures?
Figures win that one hands down i think.
Rules remain hit and miss at best, and the modern lot being chucked out at £25-35 a pop for 14 pages of poorly tested rehashed 'game' rules padded by 200 pages of glossy waffle can in no way be called a 'climb in standards'.
Figures on the other hand...well,
some are miniature works of art nowadays.
Iim a bit late to this thread. But Yep I'm afraid if you don't play 28mm you tend not to be taken serious as a collector or gamer by those producing the big rules sets. Lets be honest had Warhammer historical taken up Rick Priestlys offer of Warmaster II. Hail Caesar would be full of 10mm :) :) :) but alas they said "no Thanks and Warlord said "yep"...... just a rumour. I was asked by the two chaps who wrote and produced Deus Vult for Foreforge for some of my 10mm Crusade/Arab armies as they where wanting it to be used for other scales as well as 28's if need be but as per us players of the One True Scale where put aside. as for Pike and Shotte in 10mm it looks better than 28mm. Each to their own.. but they are wrong ;D ;D ;D
[quote author=Bishop Lord link=topic=6820.msg69
if need be but as per us players of the One True Scale where put aside. as for Pike and Shotte in 10mm it looks better than 28mm. Each to their own.. but they are wrong ;D ;D ;D
[/quote]
Hear hear!
Said it before (so you are probably bored of me by now), ignore what the rules writers think they wrote for and go with 10mm. Some rules I put more 10's on 28's bases, others I just use cm instead of inches. The only time I use 20mm+ figures is for the real low level stuff - TW&T, Dux Brittanicum, etc. Even for IABSM, which is 1 fig = 1 man, we used 1 base (3 figures) = 1/2 section, and use diceto mark casualties, because moving 10 sections of 8 men would take too long!
Why you'd do BP, F&F etc with anything larger than 10mm is beyond me
If you're not a competition nut, don't take the glossy-page commercial sets seriously. A lot of ground has been broken, and most of us have had a hand on the plough from time to time (*), so any gamer with a little experience and a readiness to talk things out with friends should be able to write a set that suits his needs and tastes, and those of his club or buddies too.
(*) Note for Americans: same thing as a plow, just spelled as God intended.
Yep, treat the rules as a basis for negotiation. :D
Okay, where did the star come from? Someone has found a hidden smiliy! (*) ( * ) no spaces peeps!
'Twas not my intention. But then, I suppose Newton wasn't expecting the apple, Shakespeare didn't know what Holinshed's chronicles might offer him, etc.
(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) for the discovery though! ;D
( * ) This one looks like something else. :-\
=O =O =O =O :-&