My New Years res was to become more informed on current news.
I don't blame my self, humans discover Higgs boson and its put on a mid page in the Newspapers, Katy Price talks about her sex life, page 1.
Any way, I believe (I could be wrong) France did not want any thing to do with Iraq or generally the War on Terror? So what are they doing in Africa, plane strikes, and French Speshial forces on a rescue...
I'm guessing the rescue is due to the fact that they were rescuing a French citizen, so they must already have involvement.
I was thinking, France did and still have a few colonies and this may be something to do with one or perhaps a Ex-Colonie that they still wish to look after?
Anyway, just seeing the French on the offensive is a change and I suppose its good. I quite like the French. They are my neighbour and as a neighbour I'd always lend them sugar, I might not invite them round for a meal but if I had a big party and other European country's (and defiantly America would be there, I can't have a party without inviting them) were coming, France would be there eating my hordeves.
Any way, just to cut my babbling I would like to know, just in case I'm put in charge of the country (or take charge by force) what's France up to? Why are they? Are we going to help? Is something going to kick off on Africa (hope not we did that just over 100 years ago. We don't wanna do it again do we)? And if so do we have the cash?
Thanks in advance.
Well...they haven't surrendered to anyone for a few years so i guess they thought it was about time?
;)
Mali was an old French Colony until 1960 so i guess they maintain links through that.
The simple fact is this has been brewing for a few years now and in the last few weeks the Malian army lost control of most of the north of the country to the Islamic Ansar Dine, supposedly and 'Al Qaeda' splinter group, but more likely not. They are however definitely fanatical Islamists attempting to institute Sharia and they've committed the usual litany of backward medieval brutality so far in their areas of control (public amputations, whippings and stoning of Malian loyalists and women). Not sure if they're Wahabbist though, but there are rumours and reports that they may be Tuaregs displaced from Libya after the fall of Gadaffi.
The UN and the West African ECOWAS has sanctioned the involvement of African Troops and as i understand it troops from Niger and Burkina Faso are currently deploying to help stabilise the situation.
However Ansar Dine captured the strategically vital northern city of Konna (with an army of 900 men in about 200 'technicals' vehicles) and the Malian leadership asked the French to help out. As French citizens have also been captured by the Ansar Dine, i guess it made a good bit of political cover to come in and they've gone there 'to support the ECOWAS deployment'. Apparently the French have asked the US to help out with drones but i'm not sure how that's been received. Given the Islamist connection I suspect the US will pitch in behind the scenes.
Why are the French there?
Well, in public they're making all the usual noises about not wanting a Fundamentalist Islamic regime right on Europe's doorstep, and also there appears to be some sort of domestic threat from Ansar Dine in France itself. I don't read French well though so not sure on that. Ansar Dine have about 12-15 French citizens held hostage, and France has a long history of alliance with the Malian Govt., having intervened militarily about two years ago to try and crush the emergent Ansar Dine back then.
As to their real reason (if different from that stated) who knows? But they do have, as i understand, military deployed in Senegal, Burkina Faso and the Ivory Coast...and now Mali, so i guess France is interested in West Africa for some reason?
For me though, any resistance to the spread of Medieval Islamic barbarism is a good thing.
This sort of 'bushfire' conflict is exactly what the Force on Force rules were written for! ;D http://ambushalleygames.com/products/store/product/show/cid-17/name-force-on-force/category_pathway-0 (http://ambushalleygames.com/products/store/product/show/cid-17/name-force-on-force/category_pathway-0)
Oh...and that's a great New Year's Resolution old chap! :-bd
France has maintained close military and economic ties with its former Colonies, unlike the UK which severed pretty much all links at independence. There are lots of issues with regards to the stability of the sub-Saharan region in West Africa, including Niger which is having its own problems with Tuareg rebels. Nobody wants it to spread any further, especially into the economic areas closer to the coastal regions.
Quote from: Luddite on 12 January 2013, 07:27:27 PM
Oh...and that's a great New Year's Resolution old chap!
Well I'll miss reading about Katy Prices next step in life and what Chardonnay 34DD/28/36 thinks of Climate change.
Somehow I knew before I got a reply that it would be Mr Lud' who would post first. Ill also note (for the benifit of french members of the forum) that I did not say anything about 'surrendering' that was Lud'. Good points both of you.
I also agree, regardless of Religious views, that any fundamentalists that are 'abusing' there fellow man should be stopped. I'm talking groups or guys at the top like Sadam. Once again that's regardless of religion or If there communists, dictatorship or Democrac whatever just don't start killing people and we will all e fine. So if that's the state in West Africa so be it.
Also. A lot of people say 'we shouldn't get involed in the business of others' I agreed with that but... To late, we and the USA and Germany (and other European's and Russian sometimes, sometimes Canada and Japan and China etc) are involed now so that's that. Also we were involved the second we started spreading the British Empire infanct even before Richard the Lion hart. I'm sorry to the ones who disagree but I believe that most the problems in the Middle East and Africa are due to the fact we pulled out (technically shouldn't have been there in the first place) and just said, 'we don't want this land any more, you lot fight over who should be in charge, see ya' and then we say, lots of fighting going on... Odd??
We and others have forged this world into the place it is, Africa, most of Asia* (i include the USSR in the 'asia group), parts of South America (and the islands around South America) most of the Middle East, all caused by Europe (mainly France, Spain and England) (and the US, Canada, Austrailer and New Zealand who were part of the British empire, so it's there history also). So we need to sort it.
( * ) = Any problems in Northan Asia, that's Russians bag, they can sort that.
Also, good idia for a modem wargame. The re establishment of the British Empire, taking back Africa and the middle east, Germany taking Europe, we know your bullying Spain, like a little brother who needs to lend ten quid (well sixteen euros) and Russia taking back there ex states (Georgia wasn't that long ago) and America helping us (or is it the other way round).
Strange ideas people have of medieval Islam. In those days, Islam was the most humane and enlightened system west of India. The brutality and stupidity are more recent developments. As, indeed, are some of the most ghastly practices in other ideologies.
Compared to others were they very civilised? Fair nuff, the reply probably is 'yes one of the most civilised'
However the fact is now that's no good. Also, as I said, it's not about Islam or any other religion, it's the way you treat your fellow man (or woman).
Quote from: FierceKitty on 13 January 2013, 12:32:23 AM
Strange ideas people have of medieval Islam. In those days, Islam was the most humane and enlightened system west of India. The brutality and stupidity are more recent developments. As, indeed, are some of the most ghastly practices in other ideologies.
With Frederick II having Islamic advisors and scientists to advance Prussia I concur.
The problem, as I said 5 minutes earlier on another forum, is rather not the system (religious, ideological..) but more those people who abuse it. Communism as such would be the ideal rule for the world. If everybody was equal, all was well. Unfortunately some people are more equal than others and thats the problem in any system. Exceptions from the rule always weaken the rule.
We live post wikileaks and have developed a very hedonistic lifestyle, egoism taking its course. We have more demands than we have actual needs or abilities yet we pursue those demands in lieu of consideration for others.
The French still have a few interests in Sub Saharan Africa and are not shy of using force to get things "right". For example to counter piracy french ship sometimes carry a detachment of Legionairres. Now I think it was 2010 when some unfortunate pirates attempted to hijack one of those ships and the Foreign Legion sank them on the spot. Piracy against french vessels has declined since then.....
Quote from: FierceKitty on 13 January 2013, 12:32:23 AM
Strange ideas people have of medieval Islam. In those days, Islam was the most humane and enlightened system west of India. The brutality and stupidity are more recent developments. As, indeed, are some of the most ghastly practices in other ideologies.
Nope.
You're perhaps referring to the Abbasid Caliphate of the 8th-13thC? For sure this was a period of Enlightenment and learning where "the ink of a scholar is more holy than the blood of a martyr" but it most likely had more to do with Abbasid rather than Islamic culture and their desire to maintain and develop the Roman, Chinese, Indian, Persian, Egyptian, Greek, and Byzantine knowledge and wisdom. And in any case during that period the apostate-related hadiths were still enacted with violent force and ultimately the central violence at the heart of the Koran exerted itself with the Sunni (Abbasid) and Shia 'civil war'. I suppose the 13thC is 'more recent'? But it represents 8 Centuries of Medeival brutality that continues into our world today.
Quote from: VulpineAlso, as I said, it's not about Islam or any other religion, it's the way you treat your fellow man (or woman).
Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you’d have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, it takes religion. â€" Stephen Weinberg
Quote from: sebigboss79The problem, as I said 5 minutes earlier on another forum, is rather not the system (religious, ideological..) but more those people who abuse it.
I've never been keen on this apologist stance. Sure humans are imperfect and will 'abuse' 'perfect' systems, but most systems are imperfect to start with. In the religious context take:
Christianity - inherently immoral
At its heart is the basic tenet of vicarious redemption, that our 'sins' have been scapegoated upon Jesus' sacrifice. This removes from us all the notion and requirement of personal responsibility upon which all morality is founded.
Islam - inherently violent
At the heart of the Koran is the requirement to kill all apostates. This is the primary driver for jihadist expansionism and the Sunni/Shia civil war that is causing so much grief, war and suffering in today's world...including the current brutality in Mali that has drawn in the French.
Back on track though, interestingly i see this morning that the UK is going to provide transport, surveillance/intel, and logisitical support to the French mission there...something the French had asked the US to provide. Some urgent back room phonecalls were presumably made over the weekend!
I'm no apologist for any religion. I believe in cats, baroque music, frequent sex, espresso, and keeping a heavy cavalry reserve. I recognise minor deviations from this code have a reasonable right to exist.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 13 January 2013, 11:43:10 AM
I'm no apologist for any religion. I believe in cats, baroque music, frequent sex, espresso, and keeping a heavy cavalry reserve. I recognise minor deviations from this code have a reasonable right to exist.
:-\ :D :-bd :-bd :-bd :-bd :-bd :-bd
but lets be serious. Life and let life. Being reasonable sadly requires others to be moderately reasonable as well. Unfortunately reason is not something we have in abundance at this stage of times.
O tempora, o mores!
"Our" uranium is in the north of Niger.
"We" have interests on the algerian gaz...
Do I need to say more ?
Quote from: FierceKitty on 13 January 2013, 11:43:10 AM
I'm no apologist for any religion. I believe in cats, baroque music, frequent sex, espresso, and keeping a heavy cavalry reserve. I recognise minor deviations from this code have a reasonable right to exist.
=D> =D> =D>
From
Bull Durham:
Crash Davis: Well, I believe in the soul. The cock, the wimp, the small of a woman's back, the hanging curve ball, high fiber, good scotch, that the novels of Susan Sontag are self-indulgent, overrated crap. I believe Lee Harvey Oswald acted alone. I believe there ought to be a constitutional amendment outlawing AstroTurf and the designated hitter. I believe in the sweet spot, soft-core pornography, opening your presents Christmas morning rather than Christmas Eve and I believe in long, slow, deep, soft, wet kisses that last three days. [pause] Goodnight
Quote from: FierceKitty on 13 January 2013, 11:43:10 AM
I'm no apologist for any religion. I believe in cats, baroque music, frequent sex, espresso, and keeping a heavy cavalry reserve. I recognise minor deviations from this code have a reasonable right to exist.
I believe in exactly the same things - apart from cats, baroque music and expresso.
However, to quote Dawkins - "question everything!".
I think we should be involved in other 'unstable' country's affairs... Not cuz we're sticking our neb in, just cuz it's our fault in the first place.
We invade,
We rule,
We leave,
We then arm them against someone els,
We leave again,
We find out there's oil,
We're back.
Isn't that what the French have done in this case?
Yeah, I'm glad they have.
Quote from: barbarian on 13 January 2013, 03:02:27 PM
"Our" uranium is in the north of Niger.
"We" have interests on the algerian gaz...
Do I need to say more ?
This makes sense. France is run on nuclear power after all...moreso than many other nations, so i guess uranium is a vital resource.
What are the 'interests on the Algerian Gaz'?
The interest on buying it.
Watched them on the news last night.
For a French army they are not very well equipped - not a white flag in site ;D.
BUT ......The News did say they were only assisting the Mali Army, so perhaps they don't need tham if they are not expecting to fight
I believe this is one of the rules of French warfare - When in doubt send an ally!!
By the way you left Dunkerque in 1940, you shouldn't brag that much on French people. >:(
(Just tired about hearing griefing about French surrendering, only coming from British and American people...)
Quote from: barbarian on 16 January 2013, 10:24:00 AM
By the way you left Dunkerque in 1940, you shouldn't brag that much on French people. >:(
(Just tired about hearing griefing about French surrendering, only coming from British and American people...)
Well said, that man! Funny how they always remember getting an empire, never that they couldn't keep it.
Quote from: barbarian on 16 January 2013, 10:24:00 AM
By the way you left Dunkerque in 1940, you shouldn't brag that much on French people. >:(
Only after France collapsed.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 16 January 2013, 11:06:12 AM
Well said, that man! Funny how they always remember getting an empire, never that they couldn't keep it.
I don't recall France ever being part of our empire. :-\
Briefly during the reign of Henry V and Henry VI! :D
Time out chaps ! :-t
This will just go round and around in circles. :)
Cheers - Phil.
If I remember correctly said Empire surrendered to some rebel rabble and Elite French ground and Naval Formations in Lexington, USA.
Now what is more humilating. :-\
I hope this thread can go btt. Sad it needs a GERMAN to tell you both suck armywise.... :P
Blessed are the peacemakers. But bad news for wargamers.
When you read Wikipedia in various languages, this is quite shocking how the same event is presented by different countries.
Battle of Dunkirk and Bataille of Dunkerque doesn't quite present the same reading of the battle.
I first noticed the differences on the articles about the Battle of Fornovo. (Italian wars)
French says : French victory. Italian version says : uncertain results.
Like so many of those cases, it is only a matter of ill-defined words. Lexicographers of the world, unite and put the philosophers out of business!
Vroomfondle says....
Oh forget it ! :P
Quote from: barbarian on 16 January 2013, 10:24:00 AM
By the way you left Dunkerque in 1940, you shouldn't brag that much on French people. >:(
(Just tired about hearing griefing about French surrendering, only coming from British and American people...)
Ouch !! :) :)
You are right Barbarian, an awful lot of the French army left with us and fought on bravely from the UK. And unlike our American allies at least the French army was on time for the start and not two years late!!! AGAIN :)
Quote from: Hertsblue on 16 January 2013, 11:20:53 AM
Only after France collapsed.
I don't recall France ever being part of our empire. :-\
;D ;D ;D
Quote from: sebigboss79 on 16 January 2013, 11:55:17 AM
I hope this thread can go btt. Sad it needs a GERMAN to tell you both suck armywise.... :P
While I accept that the German army was well equiped, well motivated and brave in both world wars - you still lost. So I don't think you can say we suck.
In fact I don't think its fair to say any army sucked. The vast majority of individuals involved were brave and resiliant who took on much danger and hardship for their respective countries. The ideologies of thier governments with hindsight may have been wrong, but that does not detract from the bravery of those who served
I will end this with a quote from one of Germanys Air Aces
"I should like an outfit of Spitfires for my squadron." Adolf Galland
You see, this is why the EU is a bad idea... ;D
Quote from: Just a Few OrcsWhile I accept that the German army was well equiped, well motivated and brave in both world wars - you still lost.
Well...yes...but they did take over most of Europe and then proceed to fight The British Empire, the USA, and Russia* to a standstill for the better part of 5 years. Credit where it's due old chap.
After the Nazis kicked off i'd say the medals table for 'stopping their little game' goes like this:
GOLD
Russia. They took the winner's rostrum hands out really. Early setbacks and problems overcame in the second half where they totally outclassed, outproduced, and outfought the Germans.
SILVER
Britain. Held up the Germans long enough to get a British and French army off the beaches at Dunkirk. Gave Jerry six of the best in North Africa and the Middle East. Kept the Bulldog Spirit going until the Yanks woke up.
BRONZE**
USA. Taken completely by surprise at Pearl Harbour two years into a global war. Amateurs. Still they had a lot of factories and a lot of men and finally managed to sort themselves out enough to put in an appearance at the end of the second half...just as Ivan was turning the tide on the Eastern Front.
HONOURABLE MENTIONS
France & Poland
They had a go bless 'em, but folded early and headed for the showers. In fact most of their army came over the Britain to carry on the fight. It took a while but we got there in the end.
*
Ultimately we owe a debt to the Russians for defeating the dark forces of fascism; they beat the Wermacht. And they suffered for it too. Out of every three dead in WWII one was Russian.** This award is under review and in danger of being revoked if they don't stop making dreadful movies about how they 'won the war'.
Clay medal to Britain and France for selling out the Czechs in 1938.
Lud, don't forget Finland.
But what I will point out is all our faults and bonus's,
French, Nepolion was a fine leader, as far as giving up, I don't think it counts, the Germans hudwinked them. And before any one says, "they didn't notice a gap in the wall!" Sorry but they could t build that wall across Belgium. Really France lost to German in WW2 due to the fact that the Germans "cheated" your involed with the support of ex colony's, such as Namm and evidently Africa, that's good of you.
Germans, Very fine force, very disaplined and trained troops and officers, top airforce, top tanks. Butt... Before you start. WW1 WW2 Allies 2 Germany 0... Now, just as they have the cash, they bully the rest of Europe. I'm talking mainly of Spain "if you do as your told we will bail you out" WTF?
America, I suppose I better just agree with you as your the Boss around here yeah? Well not if I was incharge. I'll also point out that early 1900s you had made plans to invade Canada (British) and Britan and your own people told you that it wouldn't end well for you. As far as the war for independence, America didn't win, reason, at the time up until independence all your guys were born of the British empire. However, you have changed since then, your a very proud race and I think that's a very fone thing indeed. Your Tec is top your army is half British (well trained) and half Russian (plenty of you.) .
Britan, in not missing ourselves, fine army indeed, however at no way have we been the good guys, the British empire was built on genaside, slaves, unfair wars and such.
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 16 January 2013, 01:05:02 PM
While I accept that the German army was well equiped, well motivated and brave in both world wars - you still lost. So I don't think you can say we suck.
In fact I don't think its fair to say any army sucked. The vast majority of individuals involved were brave and resiliant who took on much danger and hardship for their respective countries. The ideologies of thier governments with hindsight may have been wrong, but that does not detract from the bravery of those who served
I will end this with a quote from one of Germanys Air Aces
"I should like an outfit of Spitfires for my squadron." Adolf Galland
I beg to differ. May my words seem harsh at times I believe it got a few minds btt instead of opening a France vs UK match. No national resentiments intended buuuuuuuuuuut...
The win and loss of those events is well documented, as is the fact that whenever both winners (France / Britain) stood alone against the said loosers they got their rears kicked quite well don't you think?
I do not recall any war Britain has won without having help from someone and be it (GERMAN) mercenaries . :-\
Let's not count unarmed African tribe warriors. Even in the Falklands the French provided intelligence and ECM against those Exocet missiles.
What I really like about your post is the slight hint that many of those chaps dd not necessarily endorse what their respective governments did. Being personally envolved I would like to thank you. My granddad had a training in electrics and could not find a job untill the German Luftwaffe hired him. Just by chance he "missed" Stalingrad whereas my great granddad did not survive the impact of a massive Soviet artillery strike in the house where he was hiding in Ukraine.
The the French intell lead to us winning the Faulklands? I think not.
That was an invashion of British soil and we went over and sorted the invaders out!
Britan beat Napolion in Portugal, Spain and France, with or without allies.
As well as Africa (who do count, just because the Zulus didnt have guns they were numbersome and warlike people), Boar war? We also had India and the middle east and Germany in WW2 in battles that did not include allies. I would go on to say that Britan had Germany without the USA. I suppose we will neaver know but Germany was already starting to faulted due to the fact that they were fighting on two frunts. Although without the US against Japan? Who knows?
Also, Canada, Qubeck ;)
But to underestimate the UK is dumb, since Britan became what is now excepted as 'Britain', it's been a long time since anyone has invaded our island. Unlike Germany and France's boarders that have moved again and again.
Just a small note, let's keep this as a friendly debate, it's easy for this type of discussion to get off track...
8)
I calmed down...As a pissed of French is an infinite joy to a British.
Cannot understand why only Americans and British use this joke on "us".
Well as I said above, we all have had defeats and we all have our faults and strengths. I like the French and Germans greatly and if I was in charge of Britain I'd always work hand in hand with both of them.
Quote from: Leon on 16 January 2013, 04:27:29 PM
Just a small note, let's keep this as a friendly debate, it's easy for this type of discussion to get off track...
8)
I'm with Leon. :)
QuoteCannot understand why only Americans and British use this joke on "us".
I think us Brits have a dig at our French cousins mainly because we like them. Its like taking the mickey out of your mate down the pub (deep down we are jealous of your climate and your food/wine - my aim is in life is to up sticks to France as soon as my kids hit 18).
Quote from: barbarian on 16 January 2013, 04:45:11 PM
I calmed down...As a pissed of French is an infinite joy to a British.
Cannot understand why only Americans and British use this joke on "us".
No worries, I am German and can joke about the French as well ;D ;D ;D. All within reason of course.
@Vulpine: The Argentinians had acquired Exocet missiles and sank for example the Sheffield with it. Since that missile is French they offered intell on those missiles (which they deny now) and also "assisted" in ECM-ing on those bastards. The superior - NOT performance of British anti sea skimming missiles defence is quite apparent (Sheffield was particularly designed for that task). It was indeed the french who made a difference or as Admiral "Sandy" said if the Argentinians had gotten one of the carriers I would have ordered the retreat.
@Leon, hence my siding witht he French and offering the Germans as a new target 8) . But you are of course right and we should cool it a little and most of all be a bit more objective.
Quote from: Matt of Munslow on 16 January 2013, 05:16:41 PM
I think us Brits have a dig at our French cousins mainly because we like them. Its like taking the mickey out of your mate down the pub (deep down we are jealous of your climate and your food/wine - my aim is in life is to up sticks to France as soon as my kids hit 18).
I agree but i'd also say we 'like, envy, and hate them', as they like, envy, and hate us. We like disliking each other. We've been at it so long its like two old friends and rivals ribbing each other over a pint as they watch the sun set on their past glories...
I think Shakespeare said it best in Henry V (Act V Scene II)
French King:
Take her, fair son, and from her blood raise up
Issue to me; that the contending kingdoms
Of France and England, whose very shores look pale
With envy of each other's happiness,
May cease their hatred, and this dear conjunction
Plant neighbourhood and Christian-like accord
In their sweet bosoms, that never war advance
His bleeding sword 'twixt England and fair France.
I work with a Frenchman and we get along really well. I call him Johnny Frog and he calls me Monsieur le Rosbif ...he's one of the few people in the office i can have a decent chat with that doesn't involve kissball or X-Factor...sometimes i'll even slip in a bit of broken French. He laughs.
Long may France and England be divided by our similarities I say. ;) Except during the Six Nations...
Quote from: Luddite on 16 January 2013, 10:58:00 PM
I agree but i'd also say we 'like, envy, and hate them', as they like, envy, and hate us. We like disliking each other. We've been at it so long its like two old friends and rivals ribbing each other over a pint as they watch the sun set on their past glories...
I think Shakespeare said it best in Henry V (Act V Scene II)
French King:
Take her, fair son, and from her blood raise up
Issue to me; that the contending kingdoms
Of France and England, whose very shores look pale
With envy of each other's happiness,
May cease their hatred, and this dear conjunction
Plant neighbourhood and Christian-like accord
In their sweet bosoms, that never war advance
His bleeding sword 'twixt England and fair France.
I work with a Frenchman and we get along really well. I call him Johnny Frog and he calls me Monsieur le Rosbif ...he's one of the few people in the office i can have a decent chat with that doesn't involve kissball or X-Factor...sometimes i'll even slip in a bit of broken French. He laughs.
Long may France and England be divided by our similarities I say. ;) Except during the Six Nations...
:D ;D :-bd
If I had the money, I would away to France this second! Somewhere in Alsace/Lorraine preferably!
Quote from: FierceKitty on 16 January 2013, 02:30:43 PM
Clay medal to Britain and France for selling out the Czechs in 1938.
And for selling out Poland to the Russians in 1945. While I understand why we did this it still seems strange as it was for the Poles freedom that we declared war on Germany in the first place
Quote from: sebigboss79 on 16 January 2013, 03:49:07 PM
What I really like about your post is the slight hint that many of those chaps dd not necessarily endorse what their respective governments did. Being personally envolved I would like to thank you. My granddad had a training in electrics and could not find a job untill the German Luftwaffe hired him. Just by chance he "missed" Stalingrad whereas my great granddad did not survive the impact of a massive Soviet artillery strike in the house where he was hiding in Ukraine.
Seb.
I'm sorry your Great-Grandad did not make it. Is your Grandad still alive?
My Ex-wifes uncle was in the Trenches in Normandy - trying to keep "us" out. His unit tried to surrender to the Canadians and they walked along the top of the trench machine -gunning them. He was towards the end of the trench and dived to the floor. He than lay under his mates bodies until it was dark and then found an American unit to surrender to.
Most combatants were just doing a job forced on them by economics or conscription. A few on all sides seem to have had a bad attitude and behaved in an inhuman way, but this should not reflect on the rest.
Mark
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 18 January 2013, 11:31:32 AM
And for selling out Poland to the Russians in 1945. While I understand why we did this it still seems strange as it was for the Poles freedom that we declared war on Germany in the first place
Well, in 1939, that was the 'administrative trigger' for the declaration of war, but why Germany?
Poland in 1939 had been invaded by both Germany and Russia.
Why then did we not declare war on Russia? After all, with the Molotovâ€"Ribbentrop Pact it would have been an easy sell for Churchill what HATED the Reds.
The
real reason we declared war was a complex issue, tied up in our Imperial concerns wasn't it? A bit like...well...France in Mali... :D
Didn't we come close to joining up with the Germans?
We certainly did. When our chaps came home from fighting against racial suprematism, they found a lot of politicians had been interned for active pro-Nazi sympathies; these formed our great and good apartheid government shortly after the war. Depressing.
Greetings
There was a some chance of UK neutrality in WW2 (or cessation of hostilities post May 1940) but that was it.
The force build up in the late 30s was directed against the German threat and, to a much more limited extent Italian threats in the Med/Africa (where the UK relied on French support).
The UK and France did consider intervening to support Finland in the Winter War.
Regards
Edward
I wounder what would have happend if we sided with Germany instead (avoiding any talk of Genaside and such and weather we would or would not have been involved).
But I wounder if we and the Germans would have taken Africa and the Middle East and there wouldn't be the problems there are now?
Would that have got Canada, India and Australia to also join the Uk, Italy and German Allience.
I wounder then if America would have kept out of it all together? Or maybe that would have got them in earlier as they may have thought us to be more of a threat? As the US and we were not so friendly post WWI&II. But taken into account also the friendliness of USA and France.
Would Russia have stayed allied with Germany and the UK?
What about Japan? I know German were allied with Japan but it was only convenience. They may not of needed them if the UK and Russia were involved. Would Germany, UK, Italy a d Russia have walked over Japan and Asia?
And if they did and if they had won, would the USA the get involved?
Who know I suppose, I wouldn't be here that's for sure as my Dads side were Juwish refugees who stayed in the UK.
It was Roosevelt that sold out Eastern Europe. He was under the impression (despite Churchill's best efforts) the Stalin was a man of his word.
Getting back to the origins of this thread...
It's it getting hot in Africa? That's not a silly joke either, infact it's very serious.
We have French activitys in Mali and this report http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/algeria/9813651/Algeria-hostage-crisis-drones-and-special-forces-to-hunt-for-Mokhtar-Belmokhtar-one-eyed-mastermind.html about US Speshial forces moving into friendly territory's to strengthen Africa.
With the above and Algeria (I believe Algeria boarders Mali) it looks like quite a powder Keg.
David Cameron has gone on to say (I won't quote as I can't find the exact words) that "they" are the aggressors and he wants to make it clear that this is the case and that it wouldn't end there. Is this a prelude to another Afganistan/Iraq war, but instead of the made up 'WMDs' he appears to be setting in stone that they are the enemy.
With South Africa as 'friendly' and I belive we and Egypt are fairly friendly and Nigiria are often willing to be supportive especially when The UN or USA are involed we could have 'soil' and possible 'drop off points' in every corner if Africa.
Do you think it will blow over or should I get my boots and expect that letter through the post that says I'm needed?
Quote from: Vulpine on 20 January 2013, 12:21:20 AM
Is this a prelude to another Afganistan/Iraq war,
I doubt it, certainly for the UK. The French are leading this one after the lack of response from the ECOWAS African Nations. There should be 5000 African troops there already but as i understand it less than 100 have deployed and none of them have desert training. Hence the French involvement.
QuoteWith South Africa as 'friendly' and I belive we and Egypt are fairly friendly and Nigiria are often willing to be supportive especially when The UN or USA are involed we could have 'soil' and possible 'drop off points' in every corner if Africa.
Yeah but after the US failure in Somalia, they show very little interest in deploying back onto the continent which means the international community is unlikely to go in either. I don't think you can ignore the Chinese element of that either. Africa has been flooded with Chinese corporate and government interests, seeking to secure Africa's natural resources, and there are millions of Chinese currently working across Africa. Since the US national debt is basically owned by China, it makes US intervention in areas of Chinese influence very problematic.
The French are there, as i understand due to their uranium mining interests in the region. (??)
Quote
Do you think it will blow over or should I get my boots and expect that letter through the post that says I'm needed?
It won't 'blow over' as long as there are insane Islamic elements trying to drag us back into Medieval religious barbarism. While we see this as a 'war on terror', or 'regional conflicts', Islam is waging war on the west; or rather dragging us into their Sunni/Shia 'civil war'. But i wouldn't be too worried about conscription just yet.
In most cases so far, the west's intervention has been limited, and focussed on securing natural resources and geopolitically regions. North Africa is neither, which is why the US/Nato were happy to let the 'Arab Spring' pass through Egypt, Libya, and Syria without direct intervention. In fact, Syria is a more traditional Cold War theatre with Assad being supplied/supported by the Russians and the 'insurgents' (a much misused word, now seemingly synonymous 'rebel') supported by the US.
I'm watching the situations in Mali and Algeria unfold with interest.
Religion poisons everything.
My concern is that there is a lot of oil and other valuable resources such as metals and such. I didn't realise that China had involvement in Africa. I hope this all doesn't affect relations with the west and China.
It's odd, sometimes you think "wouldn't be cool to live in ..." And dream of time travel, but right now we are living in interesting times.
•Technology since I was born has come on leaps and bounds. When i was youg you could hold in your palm a max of 90mins of low quality music, with out a player. Now I'm typing on the same size Tec online, with 2 weeks of music and access to watch TV at any time and I can call, email or text, photograph and satnav.
• Past wars such as the Cold War just ended and the knock on of that such as Russis in Middle east, China and Korea, France and the US in Vietnarm and really WW2 was only three-four generations ago (if you live in Sunderland it's 8 Generations) . Peace in Island and the aftermath of that still going on today, Falklands that could repeat itself
• Present wars, like The war on Terror and the enforcement of democracy on the Middle East
• Future wars, like possibly Africa, Falklands.
• Militery Tech, The AK47 still in regular use, but Nucular Tech now in all Major country's and even Korea. Un-maned plains with pinpoint (supposedly) accuracy. Is this the end if boots on enemy soil?
• Economic change, we are living through the times of one of the greatest recessions of recent history, the fall of Greece, Island and possibly
Spain and the flex of Germany who have recently gone on to say that they will bail Spain out as long as (basically) Germany will be incharge of Spain. To owe someone like this gives them total controls giving Germany even more strength in Europe. Also the end of the local butchers and such and the big powers of shops like Tesco, Co-Op, Sains-bo's and the such, even my local shop is a Co-Op "express".
• Exploration, Not all that long since man was in the moon, unmanned craft almost leaving our solar sytem and earth surounded buy thousands of satalights. The Higgs Boson... I don't really understand it but I believe the scientists are right when they say its interesting and will help understand the way the univers works.
• Climate Change, Well it's 6inc of snow outside and my town has been cut of twice by flash floods. Do I think this is a knock on effect of Manon this planet? I don't know, there has been Ice Ages before with Man. I don't think the Wooly Mamaths were over using Spray Depdorants and early man wasnt burning fossil fuels was he? Natural or not, the worlds weather is changing.
• Time on this planet. Well gone are the days of getting to 70 and being dead. Now we go on and on, our body's still here as our legs stop working, our eyes and ears stop giving the brain information, we can't smell anymore and tasting food is a thing if the past. Our hands shake and our brain turns into a mush of mixed messengers and forgot memory's as a nurse wipes the dribble off our chin and and sticks another nappy round our ass! Woopy! (This is a general look, not all old people are like this, my wife's grate uncle is 75 and could kick my butt and is seeing a few 50ish yr old
Lady's, and yes he is...)
• Religion, over the last 30 years the church pews are more and more empty. As a decorator I'm painting more and more church converthions that the Methodists, Church of Englamd and Rome are letting go of. Islam and Muslum 'coripthion' as they use there followers as troops and terrorists. One of the only rules the major religions agree on is 'shal not kill' come on guys, what you doing? I suppose the answer is its not about religion at all? Maybe this is just the a way of evolving? Once we progress out the caves we need answers, religion might fill the unanswered questions, then the age of science and technology filling this blank questions, perhaps this is just the way of progress and this is growing pains .
Interesting and fantastic times to be here.
(Note while I'm typing this at 13:32 I am still in bed, wifes snoozing nect to me as I am watching Chanel 4s embarrassing body's that I perpously recorded a few nights back. Can't be that interesting in the world outside?)
What strikes me the most is that we have no money to educate and feed people properly in Europe but can spend millions on sending our troops across the globe to "defend" our economic interests.
I believe further wars concerning resources are immanent whereas we do not tackle the real problems of this planet.
You gotta spend money to make money
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 18 January 2013, 12:00:30 PM
Seb.
I'm sorry your Great-Grandad did not make it. Is your Grandad still alive?
My Ex-wifes uncle was in the Trenches in Normandy - trying to keep "us" out. His unit tried to surrender to the Canadians and they walked along the top of the trench machine -gunning them. He was towards the end of the trench and dived to the floor. He than lay under his mates bodies until it was dark and then found an American unit to surrender to.
Most combatants were just doing a job forced on them by economics or conscription. A few on all sides seem to have had a bad attitude and behaved in an inhuman way, but this should not reflect on the rest.
Mark
Hi Mark
he died long before of cancer I was born :(
@Vulpine: In economic systems where money can make money without actually "working" something is terribly wrong. Another flaw is that (in Germany) the economy cries for skilled labour BUT is unwilling to either PAY those OR TRAIN them.
I see a problem in the system itself. Few profit from exploiting the many. What is an ordinary frenchman's interest in Mali? I believe it to be very little as long as his country (France) provides him with protection and the means of wellbeing. Such is the duty of the state according to UN, Hobbes, Locke, common sense....
Quote from: sebigboss79 on 21 January 2013, 08:56:30 AM
Another flaw is that (in Germany) the economy cries for skilled labour BUT is unwilling to either PAY those OR TRAIN them.
Even more so in the UK, SB. >:(
Quote from: sebigboss79 on 21 January 2013, 08:56:30 AM
What is an ordinary frenchman's interest in Mali?
I suppose the ansure is, if they have Gas, Oil, Materials interests in Mali. The 'ordinary Frechmans' interests is that his Petrol and his utility's prices don't go up.
However, I believe that if you ever have ownership of a country, for example the British Empire or the French Colonies. Once you leave, even when asked to leave I think you should still have a responsibility to leave it in a better state than you found it. Africa before Europe 'occupied' it, might not have been perfect however it was mainly tribes who occasionally have fights (not wars) over boundrys. Now it is wars over country's armed by the northern hemisphere. What a mess 'we' have made.
BTW, I'm skilled labour, I know what you mean
Quote from: sebigboss79 on 20 January 2013, 03:16:52 PM
What strikes me the most is that we have no money to educate and feed people properly in Europe but can spend millions on sending our troops across the globe to "defend" our economic interests.
I believe further wars concerning resources are immanent whereas we do not tackle the real problems of this planet.
The Marching Song of the Covert BatallionsHere we are, seeking out the Reds
Trying to keep the communists in order
Just remember when you're sleeping in your beds
They're only two days drive from the Texas border
How can a country large as ours be scared of such a threat
Well, if they won't work for us, they're against us you can bet
They may be sovereign countries but you folks at home forget
That they all want what we've got but they don't know it yet
We're making the world safe for capitalism
Here we come with our candy and our guns
And our corporate muscle marches in behind us
For freedom's just another word for nothing left to sell
And if you want narcotics we can get you those as well
We help the multinationals when they cry out, protect us
The locals scream and shout a bit but we don't let that affect us
We're here to lend a helping hand in case they don't elect us
How dare they buy our products, yet still they don't respect us
We're making the world safe for capitalism
If you thought the army was here protecting people like yourself
I've some news for you, we're here to defend wealth
Away with nuns and bishops
The Good Lord will help those that help themselves
I've some news for you, we're here to defend wealth
We're making the world safe for capitalism
We're making the world safe for capitalism
We're making the world safe for capitalism
We're making the world safe for capitalism
We're making the world safe for capitalism
:D ;) ;)
Quote from: VulpineEconomic change, we are living through the times of one of the greatest recessions of recent history,
I'm not convinced we're living through this at all...YET.
There's certainly a banking crisis and a 'credit crunch', but a global recession?
I would say, its coming but its not here yet.It certainly doesn't feel as bad as the depression of the 1980's. And its clearly nothing like the Great Depression following the Wall Street Crash int he 1920's.
There's also no change. This system is continuing as before.
The banks were propped up with public money, largely through 'quantative easing' (i.e. PRINTING MORE MONEY), and have pretty much carried on regardless, with the exception that they are no longer performing the
primary function of a banking system - lending money to capital enterprises.
What we have is the classic Capitalist mantra; 'make private the profits, make public the debt'. How much did the UK govet give to its banks? £800 billion? £1 trillion? Where did that come from and where's it going?
I think there
may have been change if, as should have happened, the banks were allowed to collapse - hopefully taking other institutions like the, frankly evil, World Trade Organisation with it...
We'd then be in a position, perhaps much worse than we are now, but with the chance to rebuild a better economic model.
Instead we're just prolonguing the collapse that we're told has already come, largely as a cover for the ideologically driven move to privatise as much of the remaining public service organisations as possible (HIGHLY lucrative for a private company, to take assets built with public money and extract private profit from them).
There IS NO PLAN to sort out the global economic problems. The old model relied on '3rd World' production in places like China and India, and those nations are moving into '2nd world' status, undermining the whole system. The remaining potential '3rd world' manufacturing zones are either:
1. Overrun by Islamic fundamentalism
2. Dominated by ungoverned space and failed states
3. Lacking the most basic infrastructure, and therefore requiring too much capital expenditure to establish
4. All three
So how does a Capitalist model therefore revitalise its failing economic model?
The crash will come at some point unfortunately. Capitalism is inherently tied to a boom and bust cycle. We've had a boom period and the bank-owned governments are throwing public money into the pit in the hopes of staving off the inevitable bust.
What we are living is not capitalism.
In our system, some corporations are too big and to important for the states that they cannot fail or bankrupt. When they are in difficulties, they ask for public help. When they perform well (and do everything possible to pay less taxes) they threat states of living for another country if social pressure rises.
However, little and middle enterprises can (and will) disappear when failing at making money.
In a real capitalist system, everybody should have the same chances to success or fail.
Hmmm...not really. :-\
In reality, most Western countries are technically hovering around the 'Capitalist social-market mixed economy' model.
'Capitalism' is a sufficiently lazy shorthand. ;D
Lud, I disagree. I personally know there is less disposable income around. I used to work 90% in residential, now it's around 10% there's less cash for the average man, certainly.
Unless you mean, it's about to get worse... I think your being paranoid. I hope so anyway.
Interesting thread this one.. Who started it... That's right! ME baby ME! :d
Yeah, but 'less disposable income' doesn't in any way equate to a recession or a depression on the scale it's being talked up.
In the 1980's for example there was mass unemployment, severely drepressed living standards, people failing to meet their basic costs, mass house repossessions, civil unrest and street rioting; essentially, near economic collapse for large parts of the economy outside of the banking sector.
We're definitely in a downturn at the moment, but that's really more about the 'credit crunch' and the failure of banking to perform its basic functions, as well as fundamentally wrong government policy stifling the recovery.
Look to places like Germany and the US and tere is definately a recovery on the way.
My point about 'it'll get worse has two distinct elements to it:
1. This government hasn't yet begun its planned cuts to public services. When (if?) they kick in, we're really going to start hurting, just like Greece, Spain, and Italy. The US is facing exactly the same problem with the much advertised 'fiscal cliff'...its their true cuts programme...only thing is, unlike us, there's is on a policy auto-trigger. Our politicians are just borrowing more to delay the cuts they're planning.
2. The fundamental global financial and banking system that caused this credit crunch has been artificially sustained with MASSIVE public debts. Despite this, the banking system has withdrawn from its primary fuction - lending Capital to fuel the economy, but is still engaged in high risk/high profit 'casino banking'. This places tremendous strain on the global public purse, and denies the fiscal liquidity required to underwrite any potential private sector recovery. This system needs tearing down and rebuilding on a new model that actually works. The US domestic banking sector would be a good model to start with.
Paranoid? Indeed i hope i am, but i really don't see this problem as being anything but 'kicked down the road' to use the political parlance. The system that caused this problem for us al is alive and well. The key problems haven't been addressed. Global financial collapse is still a very real possibility, especially if the public sector debtors (Greece et. al.) finally collapse and can no longer underwrite the banks that public money has been given to.
I beg pardon but I see it is getting worse before it can get better.
In Germany we are too lazy and too busy watching who's got talent to march where our dictator ehem government resides and hang them on the nearest tree. I totally agreed witht he riots across England UNTILL they raided the Sony distribution centre to get huge TVs.
Like in the old Rome: Bread and Games.
The real question is, what the establishment will do should the majority of the population indeed go after them.
Interestingly nothing of what I am saying now is / was discussed in the news but: While being outraged we send money to Greece (without legal base I may add) the German authorities passed a law that says: In case of national emergency, the available government may declare such (=martial law) and deploy the army (!!!!).
What does that mean and what are the implications. Well...should the available government (worst case the chancellor alone!!!) decide it is in the "best interest" of the public he/she can declare a national emergency which is nothing else but martial law. The german army is deployed to uphold "the law" Which is against our constitution (German army is supposed to fight invaders nothing else, except the county government ASKS the HIGH COMMAND for help in case of floodings and such). Secondly and potentially dangerous is that in case of national emergency the army is commanded by *drumroll* the chancellor.
Essentially it puts the person "on the trigger" in charge to declare to "pull the trigger".
I am sure you did not know that and if you did have not thought about the implications. It is a very dangerous place when your government starts deciding what is your best interest. Such government should and has been removed from office and not necessarily by elections.
Mentioning sending money to Greece without legal base. That legal base was cnstructed across Europe in record time AFTER the money was already in Greece! The last politician to legalise his crimes AFTER committing them was an Austrian private named Hitler. History sort of repeates itself :-\
The better in this is that Greece continues to buy planes and weapons to Germany and France.
Here in Italy, the worst is the price of fuel :
BENZINA (SERVITO) 1,826 â,¬
DIESEL (SERVITO) 1,758 â,¬
Good grief.
Somewhere even more expensive than the UK....Bad enough over here. :'( :'( :'(
Cheers - Phil
Then compare the average income in Italy and UK...
Something around 15 K â,¬ a year is the media.
Quote from: barbarian on 22 January 2013, 12:30:07 PM
Something around 15 K â,¬ a year is the media.
Woo hoo, a pay rise!
:'(
Quote from: barbarian on 22 January 2013, 11:42:39 AM
The better in this is that Greece continues to buy planes and weapons to Germany and France.
Here in Italy, the worst is the price of fuel :
BENZINA (SERVITO) 1,826 â,¬
DIESEL (SERVITO) 1,758 â,¬
But they ain't paying them!
Quote from: Leon on 22 January 2013, 12:35:49 PM
Woo hoo, a pay rise!
:'(
I only know people who are paid 800-1000 â,¬ per month...for a full-time job.
A Middle school teacher is paid something like 1 300 â,¬.
Quote from: barbarian on 22 January 2013, 03:06:43 PM
I only know people who are paid 800-1000 â,¬ per month...for a full-time job.
A Middle school teacher is paid something like 1 300 â,¬.
But only untill those people refuse to work for that. Living on the dole DOES have advantages.
Social protection in Italy is a joke. Not like France. You do not want to live on the dole.
It obviously depends on WHERE you live.
Germany: You get maximum of 24 months of unemployment. After that base social security which is 382 EUROS PLUS housing and utilities. Now show me someone who has 382 â,¬ in pocket after paying housing and utilities!
Fair enough you are forced to take any acceptable job after 3 months on the dole. Which means you only GET offers after that time as companies know they can offer you to work for busticket and you have to take it. If you repeatedly fail to take a job the start cutting your money. Ultimately 248 â,¬ is the minimum they cannot cut further.
Every time they cut your money or even send you a letter you can go to the lawyer and appeal (government pays lawyer expenses for you) so after 10 years of living on the dole one of my gaming mates has finally reached the 248 â,¬ level. When he gets any call or letter from jobcentre he simple tells them to "F... off". Nothing they can do.
But the again imagine the hairdresser getting 800 â,¬ in hand that has to pay transportation, houising, utilities.... not to mention you are supposed to raise children AND save for your retirement! By now and after encountering people who want to pay me before tax and social security LESS than I got in hand in my last job I totally understand my gaming mate. Why would I get out of my bed for that? Not to mention your managers treating you like a piece of crap, blame you for their mistakes...
But I believe it has to get worse before it gets better. Hence my enrollment in a Master course here in Edinburgh. After that I will be officially qualified for what I did the last 10 years. ;D