I would say that Leon has just made me really fekking angry....
But I'd point out straight away....It's nothing to do with what Leon himself has done !
It's what he's just found out. (And mailed me about)
Yonks ago, I made some '30+mm' figures, which were my own copyright...supposed to be sold by a (HAH) friend on a royalty basis...along with a load of other stuff which took a solid three and a half months to make.
I made the grand total of £110 for three and a half months work....Basically because the 'friend' never did anything with them at all....And then....after a very short while, wouldn't answer the phone or emails.
Leon's just noticed an ebay sale for just one of these 'unreleased' figures......£75 ??......WHAT !!!
I've still got the rest of the master metals....plus the green masters of the set of six figures
Anyone want to make me a stupid offer ?....Don't worry...I'm only joking about that.
But that really pees me off !
>:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( - Phil.
Does that mean that you retain the ownership and copyright in the figures, and have granted him a licence to reproduce them, with royalties to be paid to you? Or that ownership was transferred for a small sum on the basis that royalties would be paid?
Clib.
They're MY copyright.....So supposedly...... no-one can sell them (as production figures) without giving me royalties.... (HAH !!)
Nothing ever signed....apart from e'mails.
As 'one offs' from the master mould....Nothing I can do about it....It's a "rarity".... Never been in proper production.
Wouldn't be worth the 'angst', or cost of making anything out of it.
If this particular figure DID ever become a 'must have' for folk....I'd repair the original....sell it to Leon for a song (I trust him !!)....and make the rarities worthless.
Cheers - Mr Bitter and Twisted... >:(
I'm not sure you can copyright a model.
Copyright applies to written works.
It's a pain in the backside for you either way. You own rights to the figure, but it would be a hard job proving it, and probably expensive as well. Then you'd have to prove he's been selling them in bulk to make it worth getting the royalties, etc. His argument would be that he had some laying around, similarly to you, and has decided to flog them on eBay as a personal item.
A message to eBay to explain the issues surrounding the sale of those items could get better results, but I doubt you'll end up with any financial benefit from any of the sales, and you'd have to get eBay to take an interest as well.
Or just pop him an email listing the eBay sales, with an invoice attached for your royalties!
Quote from: Luddite on 06 December 2012, 09:47:33 PM
I'm not sure you can copyright a model.
Copyright might not be the right word, but an element of the IP would still be retained by Phil under a royalty agreement.
Feeling with you Techno >:( >:( >:(
Not much you can do that I can see, short of legal action. Shows you that some "friends" are not friends at all. I learned this lesson before and will learn it again I am afraid.
I daresay ebay does not give a flying f... unless you are a big corporation and tell THEM you will sue THEM if they do not do XYZ. Been there, seen that.
All ebay cares about is fee generation.
IP / copyright may be legally different terms but a douche move is a douche move. If you have the email where that person agrees on paying you royalties I would inform that "seller" you will sue him for the royalties - attach email. I would. I also would make a remark what I think of attempting to go behind my back.
People who know me recognise me as a man that has much calmed down over the last 3 or so years (women have that effect) but such stuff p...es me totally off. More and more it appears to me that martial law and putting your fist into some other person is much easier and produces results faster than other types of negotiating. Not that I am giving you any idea Techno.
You may be right L.
But I don't think you are.
Working on the basis of 'my' figures......
It would mean it would be OK for Leon to buy some GW figures from his local branch ....Pop them into a mould and produce multiple copies...and sell them at a reduced price. :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
I don't think that would work. ;)
Leon...What you say is true....(And I could prove it with a number of Wip photo's) But I don't think it's worth the hassle, or time.....If it's one of the original metal masters.....Fair do's.
Cheers - Phil
AND you do not need a signiture (in german law) - conclusive action it is called. Not sure about UK law. Scottish law is partly very similar to continental law. Engliand may be different.
As far as I can recall copyright is the correct term to apply to miniatures as being definable as sculptures they are listed as one of the types of "artistic work" protected.
Intellectual Property is the term for the general area of law.
Looked it up; Copyright Designs and Patents Act 1988 Section 4 (1)(a)
Quote from: Techno on 06 December 2012, 10:09:43 PM
You may be right L.
But I don't think you are.
Working on the basis of 'my' figures......
It would mean it would be OK for Leon to buy some GW figures from his local branch ....Pop them into a mould and produce multiple copies...and sell them at a reduced price. :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\ :-\
I don't think that would work. ;)
That would be different though, as GW own 100% of the IP, can prove it, and there wouldn't be any grey area at all.
With this though, you've had some element of an agreement with someone, the details of which could be muddied by him quite easily to his benefit. To prove you've got complete ownership of the rights to the figures would be tricky if there has been discussion about royalties, etc. You'd need correspondence proving that you retained full ownership, and he was only getting a commission in essence as a production/sales outlet.
Just to clarify though, I'm entirely on your side with this. The thing which really rankles with me is his blatant use of your name to make the figures seem legitimate, which is possibly an entirely new legal matter in itself!
:o
Send me the link to the auction Phil - I'll bid £10k for it & then not pay him...howzat?
Or - I'll win it, pay him via Payal, get the figure back, call foul on him through Paypal & get a refund - and then post you your figure back.
:d
Quote from: nikharwood on 06 December 2012, 11:49:12 PM
Send me the link to the auction Phil - I'll bid £10k for it & then not pay him...howzat?
Or - I'll win it, pay him via Payal, get the figure back, call foul on him through Paypal & get a refund - and then post you your figure back.
:d
Despite being Chelski there is a lot I like about you ;)
Quote from: nikharwood on 06 December 2012, 11:49:12 PM
Send me the link to the auction Phil - I'll bid £10k for it & then not pay him...howzat?
Or - I'll win it, pay him via Payal, get the figure back, call foul on him through Paypal & get a refund - and then post you your figure back.
:d
All ended unfortunately: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phil-Lewis-formerly-of-Citadel-GW-unreleased-Chaos-Mutant-dwarf-metal-28mm-/251173687498?nma=true&si=1FSJRbhRGCtNIH8Nd%2BEq1LyyOOI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Phil-Lewis-formerly-of-Citadel-GW-unreleased-Chaos-Mutant-dwarf-metal-28mm-/251173687498?nma=true&si=1FSJRbhRGCtNIH8Nd%2BEq1LyyOOI%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)
£75 for a single figure :o More money than sense clearly.
I have a few 'friends' in the Lincolnshire area who can pop around and have a 'quiet word' :)
Don't worry Nosher.
I've calmed down lots now !
Sorry if I appeared to throwing a wobbly....(I was though ;))
The set of models that I did along with this 'chap'.....Were (we agreed) to be my copyright.
I'd make them 'for free'....He'd advertise and sell them and we'd split the sale price 50/50.
The models even have 'copyright Phil L' on the tab for the base.....Not that I think that's worth Jack Poo really.
As it's an 'unreleased' model....and to my knowledge, to all intents and purposes, it is.....The seller is (I suppose) is quite within his rights to offload it as a 'rarity'...even using my 'name' (dearie, dearie me) as an ex-GW employee....I did make it after all.
What may rankle with the buyer, if he knew, was the piece wasn't anything to do with GW.....I think I made it (along with 5 others) around 6 or 7 years ago.
A long time after leaving GW.
I should really have listened to my old friend and colleague Kev Adams....He warned me to be VERY wary of the 'chap' I was dealing with.
But No....I knew better than Kev. (The 50/50 on the sale price should have set alarm bells ringing shouldn't it ?)
The strange (?) thing is I know that some of the personal 'test' pieces I made while I worked at GW....(I got given almost all of the master metal copies)... do go for silly money when they come up on auction sites as they're 'rare'. :-\ (Hah !)
I sold or gave away almost my entire figure collection a few years after I left GW, which is how they turn up from time to time.
Conversely...with some of the figures I sold all those years ago..I tracked down the buyer of my old Blood Bowl sets.
Not only had he bought the painted models....But also two or three old 'greens'.
He actually asked me if he could use them to make production figures...and pay me royalties.
As far as I was concerned he had the right to do whatever he wanted with them....(he'd bought them outright)...and I wouldn't have really expected to him to 'pay again'...But he insisted....And did.
He seems to have built up a nice miniatures business now....With MUCH MUCH better models than the ones I made all those years ago.
One of the good guys.
Fortunately there seem to be more good guys than bad in the industry !!
And the bad guys we (as designers) tend to warn each other about. :d :d :d :d......
That's enough rambling !
:-\ With Leon's permission, I might pop a piccy up of the 'Kaos Krew" up on the forum to see whether they produce any interest...Just might be worth seeing if I could get them in production after all this time and angst .
Cheers - A much calmer Phil.
Got a name for this person - there is a guy call Tony Heath who is known for this sort of thing - so much so that both Games Workshop and Peter Pig have cease and desist orders from trading standards.
IanS
No idea Ian...
Though I know who the figure would have had to come from originally.
For all I know....The chap that sold it on ebay, may have been given it by my 'friend'....Or it could be the 'friend' himself who sold it....That's quite possible.
If any more of 'the set' turn up on ebay, I'll be a bit suspicious...
But it's not worth the hassle (or expense) of getting lawyers involved....It'll just end up costing lots.....
And if they're sold as 'rarities', I suppose there's nothing I can do...(Matey must still have 6 or so of each)...apart from perhaps 'getting them out there' IF there was a market for them.
Quote from: sebigboss79 on 06 December 2012, 10:09:40 PM
Feeling with you Techno >:( >:( >:(
IP / copyright may be legally different terms but a douche move is a douche move. If you have the email where that person agrees on paying you royalties I would inform that "seller" you will sue him for the royalties - attach email. I would. I also would make a remark what I think of attempting to go behind my back.
Sadly 'segiboss' I don't think he would give a 'flyer'.....He stopped answering the phone years ago....Always on ansaphone, and you'd never get a call back.
At least his company doesn't appear to be trading anymore....Oh dear....What a shame...Never mind. :d :d
Hey Ho ! - I'm still calm - Cheers - Phil. ;)
What I find telling is the remark ***Please note that any plastic bases illustrated are NOT included in the sale*** in the eBay sale that Leon supplied.
75 pounds for a single figure, and you don't even include that?! A real penny-pincher, maybe?
Anyway, if I understand correctly there's full information (name, address, telephone, email) of the seller there too. If it's not your 'friend' it might be worth a try to contact the seller and hear his side of the matter?
QuoteWhat may rankle with the buyer, if he knew, was the piece wasn't anything to do with GW.....I think I made it (along with 5 others) around 6 or 7 years ago.
A long time after leaving GW.
That may also upset the seller, if he got the mini from your 'friend' without knowing the full story. Which seems more than likely.
:-\ :-\
Well.....Unless my 'friend' had changed his name....It's not him...And he didn't live in Lincolnshire (then.)
Interesting.....
I can only assume that this chap bought, or was given the model.....Might drop him a line at some stage.
Thanks for the heads - up !
Cheers - Phil.
I'd send the guy a message for sure Phil, just to make sure he doesn't have anymore that he plans on selling, and get his side of the story. If anymore turn up on ebay, you should report it to them with your reasons for it to be removed. They do sort stuff out providing you blag them regularly, but other than taking some expensive and lengthy legal battle it does seem your not going to get any joy from the whole thing.
It's bang out of order this kind of thing, and it's a shame there's a lot of shady persons out there willing to do things like this, without being fair and doing the right thing.
The worst thing is with all this talk of austerity Britian, I fear that there will be more out there prepared to rip people off as time goes on. >:(
Hi Win.
IF this chap that's selling them bought it (them?) in good faith....Or was given them.....I guess it's up to him what he does with them...
I won't really have any beef with the seller, (unless it does turn out to be my 'friend')....though it was a bit of a shock yesterday when Leon gave me the info.
Bit bloody ironic isn't it ?
If I could get £75 for each copy of the master metals I've still got, (yeah right !! ;D ;D) I'd make (at least) around 4 times the amount that I would have charged for making the original 'greens' .....If only I hadn't been an idiot....going for a royalty deal....And just asked for payment on completion of the models.
Then I wouldn't be feeling somewhat 'cheated.'
Hey Ho !! :-< :-< :-<
Cheers - Phil.
If the guy has bought them in good faith, it does make things even harder. We had a similar thing when Arsenal Miniatures went bust in the States. They still owed us about $7000-ish, and we never got a penny. All the stock they had 'disappeared', but then resurfaced on eBay a short time afterwards. The guy selling it had bought the whole lot at some kind of asset sale, and didn't know about the debt owed on the stock. We looked at the legal options, but it was too difficult and expensive to try and get something done across two countries, and two sets of different laws, etc.
That one stung for a while... >:(
Quote from: Techno on 07 December 2012, 09:08:29 AM
With Leon's permission, I might pop a piccy up of the 'Kaos Krew" up on the forum to see whether they produce any interest...Just might be worth seeing if I could get them in production after all this time and angst .
Yeah, no worries, pop them up.
Good faith and stolen goods/ goods without proper ownership does not exist in Germany.
And Phil: At least it is just the bloodpressure that rises for you. I have had my name put in shame by a "friend", ID theft being one of the minor charges. Unfortunately neither UK, German nor local police of his country were interested. Last thing I know he tried to fraud the wrong person and was arrested for another offense while in hospital.... :d :d
To quote from German: Unrecht währt oft lange, doch ewig währt es nie. Translating freely like injustice often is longlived but never eternal.
Found this
http://collecting-citadel-miniatures.com/wiki/index.php/Bridgend_steve
Which might help your sleuthing
Seen that as well, not saying it makes this "friend"/Tony/Stephen business any easier, less angering or something....
Interesting chaps....
Thanks.
My Blood pressure's fine at the moment sebigboss...... ;)....You suffered far more from what you've said ....OUCH !!
I'd like to find out a bit more though, I suppose.
Cheers - Phil.
Quote from: Sandinista on 06 December 2012, 11:52:34 PM
Despite being Chelski there is a lot I like about you ;)
;D :D ;D
Well...
I've spoken to the chap that was selling the figure....And I would emphasize that I have absolutely NO problem with him AT ALL.
His version of how he got the figures makes perfect sense.....And to be honest...Exactly what I'd surmised, once I'd calmed down.
He'd bought them from my 'friend' some time ago.....And he said this without any prompting, so I have absolutely no reason to think there's any 'funny business' from him.
No point at all in chasing 'my friend'....He seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth for quite a while now.
So 'royalties' aren't worth even thinking about chasing !...Waste of time, money and effort.
Sorry,to all, for going off on one.... It's just any memory of 'the friend' brings back very bad memories and sets me off.....once again ;)
Who knows.... I may dig out some really old figures and put them into the collectors market.
Cheers - Phil.
=D> :-bd
Although not my style, why not? They are yours after all. Hope the holy GW-Inquisition will not send their G-Knights after you and burn the heretic in you... :d
Glad it's (kinda sorted) interesting scenario! Glad this couldn't happen to me. Hold up a second..... Leon has my Doctor who mould! #-o
I don't believe you'll ever have the slightest problem with Leon V. ;)
One of the really good guys. :-bd
Like I said earlier....There are a tiny number of 'folk' that I wouldn't touch with a bargepole....Having dealt with them before.
If they ever came back to me.....It would be "Money up front please !"
Not ever giving them the chance to again keep me waiting for well over 9 months for payment. ;)
I did fall for it a second time.....Muppet that I am....They won't ever get a third chance ! :d :d :d
(Just to make it clear - I did get the money eventually.)
There's one company (who I won't mention) who I've never dealt with, who have a dreadful reputation amongst designers.
Like I say....the designers do have a grapevine for warning each other. ;)
Cheers - Phil.
Three other paths are open to you.
• The first is simple. Kill Your 'friend'!
• Or, Kill your self!
• The third is to ensure that no one else ever gets one of your models off eBay...
Kill everybody in the whole world. Ah, ha, ha!!!!
Quote from: Vulpine on 29 December 2012, 06:44:34 PM
Three other paths are open to you.
• The first is simple. Kill Your 'friend'!
• Or, Kill your self!
• The third is to ensure that no one else ever gets one of your models off eBay...
Kill everybody in the whole world. Ah, ha, ha!!!!
Someone's been watching an old Blackadder....Haven't they V.... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cheers - Phil
Bo-B
"Two things ye must know about the wise woman."
"First....... She is wise!"
"And second.................. She is.........
Blackadder: "a woman?"
Mollinary
No Mollinary, it's just a wild stab in the dark - which, incidentally, is what you'll be getting if you don't start posting more often!
Quote from: Vulpine on 29 December 2012, 08:02:46 PM
No Mollinary, it's just a wild stab in the dark - which, incidentally, is what you'll be getting if you don't start posting more often!
=D> =D> =D> =D> =D> Point taken! (see what I did there?!).
Mollinary
By the way V, didn't you miss out a line:
"So you do know her, then?"
Mollinary (obeying instructions to post more often)
Quote from: mollinary on 29 December 2012, 09:24:13 PM
By the way V, didn't you miss out a line:
"So you do know her, then?"
Mollinary (obeying instructions to post more often)
God Mollinary, you have to pick up on evey little thing an post about it!
So you don't want me to post more often, then?
Mollinary ;D ;D ;D
I apologize for jumping back into this thread again....
There was definitely another thread where we've had a bit of a 'rant' about postage rates etc.....But I'm b*ggered if I can find it at the moment....So here it'll have to be for the time being.
I just want to have a bit of a moan about the so called 'recorded delivery' service in the UK.
For an extra £0.95p (on top of first or second class postage).....the deal is supposed to be that the recipient of the letter/package actually SIGNS that the package has arrived....The sender being covered for (I think) up to £46.00 if the package goes missing.
Well.... For the third time in as many months, I've had a recorded delivery item left on a pillar by the front gates....Without signing for it.
As, if I understand correctly, a sender simply gets a 'proof of postage' when he sends a package off.....he's covered for up to £50.....For free....What's the point in recorded delivery ??
Rip off or what ??
Cheers - Phil.
The very nice people who sent me the 'unsigned for' recorded delivery item today have replied to my query.....Bless' em.
Apparently business post can't use 'proof of postage' as a potential claim against the Post Office...Though they could have used proof of postage to get some recompense via Amazon, in this particular case.
THAT'S why they sent it recorded. (Anything over £30 they said)
Thinking about it...Using proof of postage could end up as a very nice earner if a business was trying to con the PO out of money....I understand now...Though it's still naughty that I didn't get to sign for it ! ;)
Cheers - Phil.
I'm not sure on the difference between the two to be honest. I know PayPal require one of them if there's a dispute lodged, but which one exactly, I have no idea!
:D
Back in the days before I escaped from the financial services industry (sometime in the early nineties) it was well known that "registering" letters was a waste of time. And we were sending out important documents like birth and marriage certificates and insurance policy documents. :o
Have to admit, when I send the wee men off anywhere I always use special delivery. (The new version of registered mail.)
At least I should be covered if the package goes AWOL.
NEVER EVER had one of those go missing.....though a recorded item with just a single figure in it went 'bye byes' a few years ago.
Put that down to a Christmas 'temp' thinking there was something worth nicking in it....Barsteward.
Got paid for it.....by the PO....In the end.
Registered/special delivery items get 'signed for' each and every time they swap hands..(or they certainly used to)..So you can soon see who's to blame if one goes missing.
Recorded items just get put in the normal post bags.
Cheers - Phil.
I sent something to Pendraken.
I had choice between a package with a delivery boy + insurance at 33€ !!!! =) :P :o
And a normal "raccomandata" : 7 €.
BUT the tracking system seems to stop in Italy. It says that the package left Milano to UK. Thanks.
I think I'm gonna stick to the bubble envelop from now...Lot cheaper.
Same here, Special delivery on everything. I have had one package go missing, it appears to have been in New York. I had to apply to get the insurance payout; a standard form, plus gave them the invoice and some of the emails relating to it. It took about nine months to get paid. The real nuisance was having to redo the work for free in the meantime (obviously not "free" in the longer term, but it was pain to have to do).
One thing that made me laugh a couple of years ago or so was claiming compensation, for the failure of a special delivery item to be delivered by 10 (?) o'clock the next day. (After all....That's part of the deal !)
Something that the firm I had made the soldiers for was really desperate to receive asap, which is why I chased it up.
Anyway....the package DID turn up a couple of days late....so that particular 'problem' disappeared. (**** knows where it had been. ;))
But (I felt) sod it, part of the £5+ you pay is for guaranteed delivery within the specified time period.....Fair enough, I'll have that back, I thought.
Got the claim form....filled it in an sent if off....Then forgot all about it.
About two months later, the neighbour two doors up (whose name is also P.Lewis...But not Phil, dropped round the letter with the cheque in it.)
It hadn't even gone to them originally....but to someone about half a mile away, who recognized P.Lewis and thought it was the 'neighbour's'.
Talk about hopeless ! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cheers - Phil.