Another quick question all.
BR71 is a churchill mk IV
On the pictures i can't really make out what gun it has, the 6pdr or the 75 mm (IIRC first had a counterweight and 2nd had a muzzle break correct?)
Does anyone have a clearer pic of that?
I read somewhere that troops in normandy consisted of one 6pdr and two 75mm's. I would like to show this off but need to know if i should take the mkIV as 6 pdr or the mk 3 (br164)
Think you might have got your Marks mixed:
Mk III has 6 pounder and welded turret BR164
Mk IV has a 6 pounder and cast turret BR71 sometimes modified in Italy with a sherman gun to Churchill 75 (NA) BR132
Mk VI is the one you need if you want a 75mm gun.
Mk VII is the massively up armoured command tank (and the basic layout for the Crocodile Flame tank). BR69 & BR73
Well you did have mark IV converts with the 75mm gun, but it seems i missed the fact they are a separate item in the shop, do'h (the NA75)
But i fail to spot the mk VI in the catalog :-\
So do I, not sure there is one...
As I recall, the NA75 has a Sherman gn fitted to a MKIV turret
http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=108&art_id=3099&kb_cat_id=18 (http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=108&art_id=3099&kb_cat_id=18)
Lifted from FOW site by Stafford Games! Looks like a VI and IV are failry indistingushable apart from muzzle breaks...
http://staffordgames.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21_464_70&products_id=3278 (http://staffordgames.co.uk/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=21_464_70&products_id=3278)
Yeah only difference i ever saw was that the track guards or whatever they are called were shorter at the front...
Guess i can only be using the MK VII then or the 75 NA. AS i want june-july 44 i will be going for mkVII i guess, although it was not as widespread at the beginning of the npormandy battles...
The gun on the NA75 is turned sideways as they couldn't fit it into the turret originally. I'd go for a mix of III, IV and VII myself
Yeah i know about the gun, and also the fact that it's called an NA because of the first conversions where in north africa i think. About 200 were converted in preparation for normandy though IIRC, but i don't know much about the fact if they actually saw battle..
Finally found the article I was after about the NA75s, enjoy! :D
http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=144&art_id=376&kb_cat_id=61 (http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=144&art_id=376&kb_cat_id=61)
Many Mk IV (& III) were in fact rearmed with 75mm guns prior to Normandy. These are completely different to the NA75 which used the gun from destroyed shermans and only saw service in Italy. The Mk VII was rare as hens teeth in Tank Regts as priority for them went to the Crocodile units. I would use the MK III model to represent 6pdr armed tanks and the Mk IV as 75mm (even though it has the counterweight) with the odd Mk V and VII thrown in.
Guess it wouldn't be that hard to resculpt the muzzle brake on the models. Coming from 28 mm gaming, and sculpting in that scale, i think i can have that covered :p
NM-wrong way round...Mk VI is basically a Mk III with the 75mm.
Who had which is very difficult, Guards Tank are supposed to be fully Mk VI, but photgrapic evdence shows a Mk IV in Cleve.
IanS
Ian my understanding is this;
Mk III welded turret Mk IV and VI cast. Mk VI was produced with the 75mm, conversion kits were issued to replace the 6pdr in III or IV. Therefore Mk IV converted to 75mm would be indistinguishable from Mk VI.
Returns show all Churchill IV converted to 75mm for 6th Guards in June 44 but 6pdrs show up in December.
http://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=112&art_id=399&kb_cat_id=36
Info for June 44 also listed here with back up text
http://niehorster.orbat.com/017_britain/44-06-06_Neptune/Land/z_tanks_44-06-22_21AG.html
Convesion is entirly possible. Most pictures of Guards Churcills show a turret which is rectangular rather than curved - more like the III, which would make them VI, rather than Mk IV, which is curved. My undersatnding is that the facility to make turret sized castings was very limited, as was experiance in doing so. Hence the return to fabricated turrets on the VI, VII and VIII. Then there are the IX and X, with uparmoured hull and turret, + LT versions.
To be fair the latter may well be very rare animals.
For visual reasons I'd use the Mk VII, as round escape hatches on the hull will be less visible than a rounded turret.
This debate occures in several places on a regular basis... NO Definate Conculsions I'm afraid.
IanS
Quote from: ianrs54 on 17 November 2012, 12:36:05 PM
Then there are the IX and X, with uparmoured hull and turret, + LT versions.
To be fair the latter may well be very rare animals.
Not sure that is correct Ian. :)
This is my understanding of Churchill tanks and their various marks:
Marks III and IV â€" 102 mil armour and 6pdr
Mark V â€" 102 mil armour and 95mm close support howitzer
Churchill (NA) â€" Marks III and IV converted to 75mm gun by using salvaged guns and mantlets from written off Sherman tanks, these served in Sicily and Italy through to 1945
Mark VI â€" 102 mil armour and British 75mm gun fitted from new
From '44 all newly made Churchill tanks were to be:
Mark VII â€" 152 mil armour and 75mm gun
Mark VIII - 152 mil armour and 95mm close support howitzer
All older in service marks were to be retrofitted with armour and have new turrets fitted to get the same protection as the Mark VII and VIII. These were to become Marks IX, X and XI.
Workshops were even set up in Normandy to carry out the conversions. However the 75mm gun was not effective against the Tiger and Panther where as the older 6pdr (now using APDS) was, so it was requested that 6pdrs were retained. There were some conversions that did not change the turret, these had the designation “Light Turret†(LT). I presume the later Mark numbers are not applied to those lists in the earlier posts because no-one kept exact records with the need being urgent and the workshops being just behind the front.
Mark IX & IX (LT) â€" 152 mil armour and 6pdr (from Marks III and IV)
Mark X & X (LT) - 152 mil armour and 75mm (from Mark VI)
Mark XI and XI (LT) â€" 152mm armour and 95mm CS howitzer (from Mark V)
I think by the end of Normandy the older marks were all complete. Source for this is Nafziger (although this was a borrowed copy from a few years back) and Peter Chamberlin and Chris Ellis.
Cheers, Rob :)
Spotters guide can be found in the articles section of this site
http://freespace.virgin.net/chris.shillito/a22new/
I recommend this for churchill info too but it's aimed more at Tunisia & Italy
http://northirishhorse.net/
Well, the good news is funds have just doubled so i can get some more of them churchills :p
Bad news is i still haven't decided :(
Thinking of going for the markIV and mark VII though. Along with 3 avres and 3 crocodiles ;)
Gotta love an AVRE! :D
You don't say ;)
Guess i will be taking 2 normal avres, and a 3rd one with a fascine.
Anyone got a piccie of that one?
Btw, is it normal i want to ditch the whole lot and start 8th army and DAK :p
Quote from: petercooman on 17 November 2012, 11:49:51 PM
Btw, is it normal i want to ditch the whole lot and start 8th army and DAK :p
No - that's
not normal. At all.
Normal is that you do this -
and the 8th Army & DAK :d :D
OK thought there was something wrong :p
gonna start with these guys first though, i just love the churchill too much, and they were only a late addition to north africa...
Quote from: petercooman on 17 November 2012, 10:02:40 PM
You don't say ;)
Guess i will be taking 2 normal avres, and a 3rd one with a fascine.
Anyone got a piccie of that one?
Normal AVRE
(http://www.kerynne.com/games/images/pendraken/100_8818.jpg)
I don't have the fascine carrying one - but I'm sure I've seen a pic, have you looked at madaxeman's?
The REAL Churchill, of course, is on a horse, either leading an army of the Grand Alliance, or getting into trouble in the Sudan.
Quote from: fred 12df on 18 November 2012, 10:07:27 AM
Normal AVRE
(http://www.kerynne.com/games/images/pendraken/100_8818.jpg)
I don't have the fascine carrying one - but I'm sure I've seen a pic, have you looked at madaxeman's?
Since a facine is just a big bundle of logs it's hadly the most complicated item to make up and add to a Churchill methinks. ;)
Quote from: Hertsblue on 18 November 2012, 05:11:03 PM
Since a facine is just a big bundle of logs it's hadly the most complicated item to make up and add to a Churchill methinks. ;)
That's true :)
Better go shrink some wood with the shrinkray in the garden shed :p
Does anyone know if fascines were only transported by the engineers (so on AVRE's) or did they add them to normal tanks too? I think i can recall seeing one on a normal churchill in a piccie once, but i'm not sure.
Quote from: petercooman on 18 November 2012, 08:05:29 PM
Better go shrink some wood with the shrinkray in the garden shed :p
Have a browse through the Woodland Scenics range - I think that's where I got mine. I believe it's the stuff they use for OO reeds etc.