To clarify, I’m not talking about Schleswig-Holstein!
Inspired by Mollinary’s battle report (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5994.0.html ) I mentioned to the guys who I regularly game with that I thought the period looked quite interesting (sorry Cameronian, I meant THE period looked quite interesting) ;)
Bearing in mind one of my friends is obsessed with Austrian history I was always on a winner and left our last gaming session weighed down with the Prussian history of the war of 1866.
I managed to get a copy of “War of Empires I†off eBay and have now officially entered the planning stage of the project (my favourite part!)
Bearing in mind I’m still expanding my AWI stuff, I’m trying to do this period as cheaply as possible, with the majority of cash being spent on lead! I’m hoping that those of you who game the period would be able to give me some guidance;
Rules: As I said above I’ve bought a copy of War of Empires on eBay. Obviously I haven’t yet played them yet, but they do seem to be almost like board game rules and I’m wondering if they are “involved†enough for us. I’ve read reports of the 1866 set of rules which seem to suggest that it’s a fantastic source of information, but perhaps too detailed â€" does anyone have any other suggestions (I’m not keen on Black Powder though!)
Uniform Guides: I’ve struggled to find much information online and would rather not buy uniform guides at this stage in the project â€" does anyone know of any good online references?
Thank you!
Jon (Charon)
The Opsprey 1870 guide to 1870 Prussians is fine for 1866 uniforms, only the pukelhelms change. Or 'Battledress' by (oh hell, can't remember his name and I'm not at home) is really useful, it's available on Amazon.
There is a huge series of threads in resources about 1866 Saxons, all the sources will do Prussians too.
It does have a link for the uniform guides, but I'm not on my computer at the mo, so I can't copy and paste links. Dashed mobile phones! :D
Cameronian, Mollinary and co are a wealth of informaton too.
Battledress is by IT Schick
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Battledress-uniforms-worlds-armies-present/dp/0907408729/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1348332364&sr=8-2 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Battledress-uniforms-worlds-armies-present/dp/0907408729/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1348332364&sr=8-2)
German Armies V1 1870 - 1871
http://www.amazon.co.uk/German-Armies-1870-71-Prussia-Men-at-arms/dp/1841767549/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1348332421&sr=1-2 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/German-Armies-1870-71-Prussia-Men-at-arms/dp/1841767549/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1348332421&sr=1-2)
The Saxon Resources thread:
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5467.0.html (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,5467.0.html)
I found these invaluable:
"A Guide to the Seven Weeks' War" by Nigel J Smith. (Helion)
"The Armies of 1866: A Guide to the Uniforms, Weapons and Organisation of the Armies of the Seven Weeks War", by N.J Smith. (Helion books).
Both are soft back A 4 size at £9.95 pounds sterling. They cover all the states involved in the war in greater or lesser detail, including Italy, and has their OOBs as well as the detail you are looking for. it was my one stop intro to this period.
The only note of caution, look elsewhere for the information on flags. The book contains material which is conjectural and inaccurate, even on things like Prussian flags.
Hope that helps.
Mad Lemmey
Splendid decision, start with the relevant Ospreys for uniforms, read Craig's Konnigratz and Wawro's The Austro Prussian War (much of it is bollox but there's some good stuff too) for background; Bruce Weigle's 1866 is a must, its a really superb primer for the period even if you don't like the rules. Join the CWS, the fee is something daft like £5 and you get a CD with all the back issues stuffed with useful 1866 material. Helion press is owned by a renouned 1866 buff, Duncan Rogers, there's loads of books, pamphlets etc on his site. Join the Yahoo groups 1870 and Bloodandiron, both are full of 1866 anoraks (like me !) and are very useful for posting questions. Re rules I really like FOB 2; join the PIQUET Yahoo group then navigate to the FOB bit; our 1866 house rules are there as are the cards for download or purchase.
Welcome to the madhouse.
PS Mollinary is generally very sound especially on flags but pay no heed to his ravings re the Werndl carbine.
Quote from: cameronian on 22 September 2012, 06:03:41 PM
PS Mollinary is generally very sound especially on flags but pay no heed to his ravings re the Werndl carbine.
;D ;D
Waiting for wife & daughter to retire for the evening sir! :'(
I found this site quite useful for uniforms. ;)
http://www.grosser-generalstab.de/sturm/sturm30.html
Thanks chaps, some excellent information there. Field of Battle 2 seems like the way to go, I've just read a couple of battle reports on various blogs and they seem to tick all the right boxes!
Also, and I know this is a completely "noob" question which I suspect I already know the answer to; where there any occasions on which the units of the Italian Army fought alongside those of the Prussian Army?
No. Completely different fronts. The Prussians would have had to either go through France or cross the entire Austro-Hungarian empire!
See map 7: http://homepages.wmich.edu/~hega/PSCI340/ps340map.html (http://homepages.wmich.edu/~hega/PSCI340/ps340map.html)
Quote from: mad lemmey on 23 September 2012, 07:50:43 AM
No. Completely different fronts. The Prussians would have had to either go through France or cross the entire Austro-Hungarian empire!
See map 7: http://homepages.wmich.edu/~hega/PSCI340/ps340map.html (http://homepages.wmich.edu/~hega/PSCI340/ps340map.html)
Thanks Lemmy, I suspected the geographical issues may have caused a problem! Quite fancied an Italian force but I think the rest of the group will be doing the Prussian front - Prussians for me then!
We use a free fire and fury variant set here - http://www.wfgamers.org.uk/
You will also find lots of 1866 scenarios there.
That looks interesting - think I have a copy of F&F somewhere!
Charon
Apart from the Prussians vs Austrians & Saxons, you also have Prussians vs Bavarians + Federal 8th Corps. The latter is my 2013 project.
Many of the uniforms of the German States are similar enough so that in 10mm scale you can still do some of the forces involved even though Pendraken do not do a specific figure.
Chad
Quote from: Chad on 23 September 2012, 01:43:44 PM
Charon
Apart from the Prussians vs Austrians & Saxons, you also have Prussians vs Bavarians + Federal 8th Corps. The latter is my 2013 project.
Many of the uniforms of the German States are similar enough so that in 10mm scale you can still do some of the forces involved even though Pendraken do not do a specific figure.
Chad
Thanks Chad, unfortunately it is a prerequisite of my mate's involvement that there must be Austrians! I usually like to go for more "unusual" armies (Spanish and Portuguese napoleonics for example), hence the question about Italians.
It looks like there will be four of us doing this and the others don't fancy doing the Italians at all :( Better start polishing my Picklehaube!
Charon
There is an Austrian Brigade in the VIIIth Corps. ;)
Chad
Meeting the guys tonight, will see what they think!
Ok, group meeting over, we've decided to go with Chad's suggestion of doing the western campaign which hopefully gives the Austrian players a good variety of troops.
It looks like I will be fielding the Army of the Maine (or part thereof, depending how generous the birthday bunny is feeling :) ) One further question (and apologies for all the questions) - would the Oldenburg-Hanseatic brigade have been dressed in the same manner as the Prussian troops, and if not does anyone know what they would have worn?
Thank you!
Oldenberger's wore EXACTLY the same a Prussian troops, except the sleeves did not have a solid red cuff like normal Prussian troops, instead they had thin red piping around the top of each cuff. They also have a silver star on the bronze front piece of their Pucklehabe and a different cockade on the left hand side of the chin strap (yes, the figures are detailed enough to see it)!
The other issue is that the Oldenbergers marched under their own flag (even in 1870). I've yet to find a reliable illustration of it, and resorted to using the Ducal flag (red St George's cross over very dark blue background). Until someone corrects me (cue Cameronian and Mollinary), mine will continue to march under it.
Brilliant, thank you Lemmey!
Lemmey
Now you got me confused. The prints from grosser-generalstab and other Knotel images, show a uniform that is closer to Wurtemmburg. No sign of a pickelhaube.
Chad
Love a challenge! The Oldenburgers had two active battalions in 1866, and 3 in IR 91 in 1870. They carried flags which dated from 1822 in the case of the 1st battalion, and 1837 for the other two. The basic design was the same for all three, and was identical on each side of the flag. The field was cornflower blue, and had a gold fringe on the three open sides. In the centre, resting on an ermine mantle surmounted by a crown, was a fairly complex coat of arms. The whole ensemble was surrounded by two green laurels prigs, crossed at the base. In the corners were crowned golden monograms, surrounded by laurels. The crowns on the two lower corners were on the upper side angled towards the centre of the flag, those on the upper corners were also on the top side, angled towards the flag corners. The monogram for the 1822 flag was PFL, on the other two PFA. Now for that complicated central shield! Divided into six parts: top right, top left; centre right, centre left; bottom right, bottom left -all as you look the flag. Topright, a yellow field with two dark blue lions, one over the other, passant gardent (like the English ones). Top left, a yellow lion rampant, facing left, on a red field. Centre right, a red field with a white swan standing, both wings raised. Centre left, a red field with an unidentifiable (by me,anyway!) central device, largely white, triangular with point down, and a red centre. Bottom right, a yellow field with a black, left facing lion rampant. Bottom left, red field with a knight on a white horse facing left.
But that is not all! Over the whole thing was a small heart shield? This has a crown above it, and is divided into four. Top right is a dark standing cross on a light background. Top left is a field of horizontal red and yellow stripes. Bottom right, a red an white chess board pattern.
Bottom left, and unidentifiable device in gold on a light background. I'll look for any more I can find, I have a couple of leads that might be able to help me refine the shield emblems a bit.
Well, you did ask!!!! ;D ;D ;D
Mollinary
The coat of arms is the same as the one on the conjectural Oldenburg flag on The Napflags section of the Warflag site, but resting on an ermine mantle.
Mollinary
Now I have to paint that in 10mm!
:o
Nice one sire! 8)
The 1866 uniform is closer to the Wurttenberg, I checked once I got home in armies of 1866 by picklehabe press.
Never mind being corrected.
ps The cockade in 1870 WAS red and blue on the left, black and white on the right, I knew it was different! The cuffs are piped red, but I missed the detail of two white bars of litzen lace...
Quote from: mad lemmey on 26 September 2012, 05:24:18 PM
Now I have to paint that in 10mm!
seems pointless to do just the one - paint two and send me one ;D
Excellent stuff chaps, thank you!
I've got one in a unit already! I'll give it a go over the weekend... IF it works I'll do you one!
Anyone got any pictures of it? The image in The Armies of 1866 is not good!
Lemmey
No problem. It was just that I had bought 10mm Wurttemburg figures for both W'burg and Oldenburg. :-SS
Chad
Ahh, here we go!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Deutsches_Reich_-_Grossherzogtum_Oldenburg.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wappen_Deutsches_Reich_-_Grossherzogtum_Oldenburg.png)
I think this may take the WHOLE weekend, unless I shrink it and print it...
definitely shrink and print or you'll go blind ;D
Well done, Lemmey, that answers all the questions!
Mollinary
surrounded by two green laurels prigs
LOL, did you mean 'sprigs' or are the laurels as tiresome as you when you're banging on about your bloody flags ;D ;D ;D
... and before you say anything, no you're not tiresome in the least.
Quote from: cameronian on 27 September 2012, 08:12:35 PM
surrounded by two green laurels prigs
LOL, did you mean 'sprigs' or are the laurels as tiresome as you when you're banging on about your bloody flags ;D ;D ;D
=O =O =O
An hour of pratting about, this is as far as i have got with the flag, anyone want to take it further... :P
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/madlemmey/Oldenburg2.png)
Shrunk to .9cm high, it looks pretty decent, honest! ;D >:(
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/madlemmey/Oldenburg21.jpg)
Looks bloody good to my uneducated eyes! Excellent work Lemmey
Wow! :o :o
Thanks chaps, really appreciate that. It's on my photobucket if anyone wants it.
It's only a wiki shot of the ducal coat of arms using 'sniping tool, which I also used to copy and shrink the crown, some free clip arts for laurel wreaths, and a bit of dodgy text...
Someone else did all the hard work, I just 'borrowed it!
Tried printing it last night and it is more green than blue in it's background, will attempt a recolour later... :'(
Looking forward to seeing those finished Lemmey. :-bd
Cheers - Phil.
Take 3:
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/madlemmey/Oldenburg2-1.png)
Better or worse?
Much better, but perhaps the blue could go a shade darker yet?
Mollinary
A shade darker? Such imprecision from the Fahnmeister himself, tut tut, see below.
http://www.pantone.co.uk/pages/pantone/category.aspx?ca=1&gclid=CNHc5NOm3bICFcPHtAodkkkABQ
Oh great chieftain of the Caledonian race, do not whip me with thy acid tongue a second time - my shy retiring and easily bruised personality cannot bear it!
With the greatest trepidation I offer the following suggestion to cool your Celtic ire (see separate thread). Read my first post, and look up Cornflower on Wikipedia. :D :D 8)
Your most obedient Sassenach servant,
Mollinary
Some advice needed chaps.
So, I just came back from a holiday near Trutnov (aka Trautenau). Basically you have Jicin on the left, Hradec Kralove (aka Königsgratz) in the rear, and little signs with 'Battle of 1866' all over the place. To make matters worse, my surname is Oldenburger, and just what do I see in this thread when I get back?
And still, I have no intention at all to 'Start the war of 1866'. Does this mean that something is amiss? Should I be slavering over Pendraken's 1866 ranges right now, planning a new army or two?
It's just that my interest in armies stops at about late Renaissance, and only picks up again around WW2 (or possibly a bit earlier). Which excludes most of the 'rows and rows of identically clad figures' type armies, where even the last obscure detail seems to matter. Still, to each his own, I say. But it does leave me to think that maybe something is terribly wrong. Any opinions? Is it just me, or do others suffer from the same affliction?
Olden,
Nothing wrong at all - but the ranges and figures are very good, and the wars very interesting. I hope you enjoyed your trip to Trautenau, I love the area, and there are few areas for battlefield tours which combine untouched, unchanged fields, with beautiful countryside, friendly people, lovely towns, good hotels, great food and wine, and superb beer, all at affordable prices. Keep an open mind, and let the period creep up on you!
Mollinary
Certainly agree with you on the lovely countryside, nice people, good food and beer. The towns (or usually the historic centre) are full of charm, and as you say, everything is very affordable. On the period, well maybe one day. But I think there are a lot of periods and armies I would rather do before embarking on this.
Alex
Talking of the 91st Oldenburgers, here they are before I changed the flag:
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/madlemmey/25th%20Hessian%20Division%201870/DSCF1001.jpg)
And here it is after:
(http://i214.photobucket.com/albums/cc94/madlemmey/25th%20Hessian%20Division%201870/DSCF1011.jpg)
(Just of note, the one reference I came across for the flag says that by 1866 it was in tatters, lawd knows what it must have been like in 1870)
Well done on the flag, it looks worth the effort. On condition in 1870, Fiebig p399 shows an engraving of one of the Oldenburger's flags,by G.Lebrecht, at Vionville-Mars la Tour. All it shows is the bottom monogram nearest the pole, and a strip of cloth rising to the top!
Mollinary
PS, I'd stick with the complete one.
Quote from: mollinary on 30 September 2012, 03:19:35 PM
PS, I'd stick with the complete one.
Me too! It would be a shame to go to all that work just to "age it"
Talking Oldenburg, the Knotel picture I've managed to find on the internet shows them wearing what looks like a kepi. Would the best proxy for this be an ACW union infantryman?
I'd not - It's the same 'Russian' kepi as the Wurttenbergers wear!
My Wurttenbergershttp://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2715.0.html (http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,2715.0.html)
http://www.pendraken.co.uk/FWW2-p3710/ (http://www.pendraken.co.uk/FWW2-p3710/)
I agree with Lemmey. The belly cartridge box would also indicate that the Pendraken 1870 Wurttembergers are the figures to use.
Mollinary
Thanks chaps, for info this is the picture I was referring to;
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8449/8039972023_278f636839.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75366718@N05/8039972023/)
1866 oldenburg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/75366718@N05/8039972023/) by Charon71 (http://www.flickr.com/people/75366718@N05/), on Flickr
See what I mean about the kepi? Cartridge box would be an issue though.
Not really, the rifle is sculpted across the chest so you cannot really see them!
I hope you enjoyed your trip to Trautenau, I love the area, and there are few areas for battlefield tours which combine untouched, unchanged fields, with beautiful countryside, friendly people, lovely towns, good hotels, great food and wine, and superb beer
... !!! Yes, and the superb company, the superb, enlivening, erudite company, you forgot the company !!!
And I'm still a ruddy Lieutenant, what does it take to get a promotion round here?
Quote from: cameronian on 30 September 2012, 05:39:04 PM
And I'm still a ruddy Lieutenant, what does it take to get a promotion round here?
300 posts is your next bump, Lieutenant!
:D
Quote from: cameronian on 30 September 2012, 05:39:04 PM
And I'm still a ruddy Lieutenant, what does it take to get a promotion round here?
Bribery helps...
Quote from: Leon on 30 September 2012, 05:47:02 PM
300 posts is your next bump, Lieutenant!
:D
. And 500 is the next one after that young Cam!
MM
Quote from: cameronian on 30 September 2012, 05:39:04 PM
And I'm still a ruddy Lieutenant, what does it take to get a promotion round here?
Make
lots some of your posts incoherent drivel like I do. ;)
Cheers - Brigadier Techno
In my first post I stated that in 1866 Oldenburg fielded only two active battalions. I have since discovered I was wrong, and that in 1855 the Reserve battalion and light battalion were combined to form the third active battalion. So three battalions in both 1866 and 1870. Apologies for the mistake. :( :( :(
Mollinary
Stuart Sutherland in his excellent book on the German States' armies gives the strenbth of these 3 battalions as just short of 2,700.
Chad
Nafziger gives the strength of the 3 Oldenburg battalions as 3072 giving a strength per battalion of 1024 - not sure how accurate this is though as he seems to give a similar figure for other battalions in the Army of the Maine. I suspect that these are establishment strengths and that the real figures are much more like the 2700 you've quoted from Sutherland's book :-\
Sutherland always seems to present the information for the various States at the strength their forces had at the point at which they went on campaign. Most of the information suggests variable battalion sizes and therefore regimental sizes throughout the book.
Chad