Soliciting feedback: am I out of line if I introduce a house rule or two in reaction to the sort of opponent who spends half an hour on each move to insure that he's got three elements firing from outside the effective range of enemy shot etc? You know the type; wants to calculate every last decimal point before moving (in a way real battlefield commanders can never do).
In particular, I want to insist that a) actual movement of troops shall be limited to five minutes from receiving movement dice from opponent, rather like a chess clock; b) that no legal move once made may be taken back; and c) that measuring may be done only from the element moving, and not so as to gather information about the distance and charge or shooting range of enemy elements. Penalties for disregarding this to involving offending unit's(') being forbidden to move at all or required to move maximum, as opponent chooses, and loss of moves not taken by end of five minute period.
Going too far, or a reasonable response to someone who wins by boring opponents into rash moves and plays the rules rather than the game?
Don't think that's going too far at all.
Sounds like a tactic devised to bore your opponent to death..... let alone make rash moves.
I know the feeling
In-game penalties rarely work as your opponent will incorporate them into his move
You could avoid playing with him
Alternatives
1. start reading a book whilst he is doing his move
2. phone a friend and bemoan your opponent's game play out loud
3. do the same back to him
4. youtube it so we can all have a laugh at his expense
Alan
Ahhh, that old chestnut.
I know of several players who do that, it difficult is best to:
1) Not play them.
2) Play a set of rules that do not allow premeasuring of ranges (something WhAB did well).
3) Play a rule set where there are NO ranges (like Crossfire).
4) Enforce the dbm/chess rule of once your finger has left your piece, that's it.
5) Bloodbowl had a good system, if you didn't move your turn marker,you lost a reroll, and you were limited to 4 minutes a turn.
6) Principles style pre-written orders help.
All of these are nigh on impossible if you are using a set of rules your opponent is familiar with, maybe a new set of rules that cover his?
Option 7) Scream 'JUST GET ON WITH IT!' repeatedly.
Option 8) Wine gums, they cure all ills!
Option 8) Apply liberal use of the Pointy Stick rule
Option 9) Yawn very loudly, check your watch every thirty seconds and insist on finishing the game at least 6 and 1/2 days before the club meets again next week...
I'm lucky in that my regular gaming friends never play like that, so the issue never arises. It's one of the reasons I stopped going to our local club. In fact we spend too much time just chatting!
Everyone has a differing style of play, and speed is one of those variables.
It is immensely frustrating to play 'fiddlers' like this - something that years of DBM tournament play taught me to tolerate. It still drives me mad though. That said, 'hustling up' and 'delaying' are legitimate tournament tactics, both of which i've used myself. :-[
While you may introduce your proposed 'house rules' to deal with this specific player, I see them more as 'playing conventions' actually; something that i think any gaming club/group does well to establish for all players to play all their games by. You list hits the big ones...
1. Make good progress.
Most games are designed to allow a side of competent players to complete their turn in around 5-10 minutes. Every player should GET A MOVE ON within the game, and other players should make sure a slow player its hurried along a bit.
2. No taking back legal moves.
Without the express agreement of your opponent. Likewise, no moving the troops until you've measured the distances and angles. this is a sneaky underhand trick to resposition yopur troops to your advantage (i think they were about here). You know it and your opponent knows it, so just don't do it ok?
3. Unless premeasuring is allowed, don't do it.
And no measuring the length of your arm, finger-span, etc. to get a sneaky hint as you lean over the table.
4. Dice, its flat on the table or its rerolled.
Our rule is anything not clearly flat on the table is rerolled. However, NEVER pick the dice up for the reroll until the opponent has seen and agreed to it. In general actually, dice should be left where they fall. None of this 'gathering the dice up' malarky. Throw them. Leave them for all to see. Agree on the next move.
Also, don't use any of those dice throwing shenanigans that allow you to influence the result. There are techniques out there we all know about. Don't do it. And don't use wieghted dice.
If at all possible have both sides use the same dice.
I was at a tournament once where my dice throwing was insanely good. Sometimes it happens. I offered the opposition the chance to use my dice instead of theirs as they were starting to cry foul.
5. Discuss and agree
We aren't laser-precision machines. We're humans and the tabletop is generally a chaotic mess. When its unclear whether a base is 'just in range', or whatnot, talk it out.
Player 1: 'I'm intending these to stop just outside bow range. Is that ok?'
Palyer 2: 'No problem'
It goes a long way to preventing the 'fiddling on' that can result!
Yeah, so establishing ground rules is key.
You could also add in group-specific stuff like 'loser packs the terrain up', or 'though shalt put a bloody game on once in a while, not just leech a place at the table off others', and '99 bare plastinc goblins and one with a black undercoat does not constitute a painted unit'. ;D :D
On the matter of the chess clock (dashed expensive them things are) we've talked about the merits of them at our club. We rather like the idea of each side having say 1.5 hours on the clock in a 3hr game. When your time runs out, you lose! It would add a delightful urgency to the game don't you think?
Refer to the original BKC rulebook, "the pointy stick rule", basically if your opponent is behaving like a twit, poke him with the pointy stick until he stops.
Or alternativly, and this would be my choice, refuse to play with him until he stops behaving like a twit.
Both are even simpler than your solution.
Personally I'd rather play solo than play with an opponent like that.
Take some undercoated units and paint them whilst you are waiting the ditherer to micro-move. With the added rule that if you finish painting the unit(s) you get to field them as reinforcements in the same game......
We use alternate moves by units systems, so it is not usually a problem for us, as no one player is getting to move and fire all his units in one go, which actually speeds things up remarkably.
Quote from: GordonY on 17 September 2012, 01:01:52 PM
Or alternatively, and this would be my choice, refuse to play with him until he stops behaving like a ****.
Personally I'd rather play solo than play with an opponent like that.
It may come to solo play if he doesn't stop acting that way. But opponents are hard to come by out east, and I actually quite like the fellow apart from his rotten sportsmanship.
I once knew someone who played bridge so slowly that opponents were known to fall asleep waiting for him to play a card.
Change to a set of rules where the movement is generated by throwing dice for movement points, and follow the declare before rolling how far you want to go, just in case you roll triple six and end up isolated etc.
I think that first of all you owe it to the guy to just say, "you know, it drives me nuts that you take so much time on your turn. Can you please play faster?"
If he's a decent guy, he'll pick up the pace. If he's can't change his play style, you don't have to play with him.
My impression from the original OP was that if that was going to work, it would've worked already.
What does OP mean in terms of forumspeak when it doesn't mean Observation Post ?
Original post.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 17 September 2012, 02:32:51 PM
It may come to solo play if he doesn't stop acting that way. But opponents are hard to come by out east, and I actually quite like the fellow apart from his rotten sportsmanship.
The one good thing about solo play FK is that it doesnt matter about playing speed, some of my solo games have gone on for 2 weeks. :D
do you poke yourself with a pointy stick?
Quote from: Maenoferren on 17 September 2012, 10:43:25 PM
do you poke yourself with a pointy stick?
Rather a personal question, old boy!
EDIT: Quote fixed.
Quote from: Maenoferren on 17 September 2012, 10:43:25 PM
do you poke yourself with a pointy stick?
No but I find that some days that I dont even get a single move done, far too many distractions, I do give myself a proverbial "kick up the ass" when I start feeling the need to run another game when one isnt finished though.
I can't get my head round solo gaming at all.
How do you cope with knowing exactly what the other chap is going to do?
;D
Thats probably a good reason for my games taking so long, by the time I get back to the table, I've forgotten the other chaps ever-so-cunning plan. ;D
I have enough trouble remembering ONE plan, let alone two.
Although it usually doesn't matter as by turn three 'the plan' is usually in tatters anyway...
Quote from: Luddite on 18 September 2012, 02:42:10 PM
I have enough trouble remembering ONE plan, let alone two.
Although it usually doesn't matter as by turn three 'the plan' is usually in tatters anyway...
Didn't Wellington remark that a plan for a battle was a smart leather bridle and reins, while the reality was desperately tied together with any old bit of rope one could find?
If you've got a smart phone / MP3 or the like try getting a really irritating tune or sound effect. Give the guy in question 10 minutes - or whatever you deem reasonable to complete his movement - then switch on the device for the rest of his turn. You could even leave it in your jacket while you vacate the table for a bit.
Quote from: Gennorm on 19 September 2012, 07:17:52 PM
If you've got a smart phone / MP3 or the like try getting a really irritating tune or sound effect. Give the guy in question 10 minutes - or whatever you deem reasonable to complete his movement - then switch on the device for the rest of his turn. You could even leave it in your jacket while you vacate the table for a bit.
He's a musical moron who wouldn't notice it. Since I'm a worshipper of Apollo who thinks the harpsichord ranks with the espresso machine, shogi, and the vasectomy as the greatest human inventions, I'd be harming my own pleasure, not his.
Remember that remark a contemporary made about how the Venetian practice of hiring Turks was like a man's cutting off his penis to spite his wife?
Hmm I reckon a recording of the harpsichord would get me moving pretty quickly in order to stop it. You could try giving him a triple espresso.
Quote from: Gennorm on 20 September 2012, 03:37:35 PM
Hmm I reckon a recording of the harpsichord would get me moving pretty quickly in order to stop it. You could try giving him a triple espresso.
Well, even for people who don't like its precision and clarity, the harpsichord has one benefit - it's not a loud instrument and won't bother the non-musical neighbours.
Actually I did persuade him last year that espresso was a noble and inspiring drink, even without alcohol.