OK, now here's something that has bothered me for years. What is the actual colour of the basic "sand" paint used on German AFVs in WW2. The Vallejo version has a distinct greenish tinge to it - as did the old Humbrol enamel hue - to such an extent that a small model painted with it looks green. However, every source book I own (and I own a fair few) shows German AFVs base-coated with a dull yellow colour, which would justify the description of "sand".
Now, I appreciate that these are artists' impressions and they do vary greatly in tone, but the difference from the paint colour is so marked as to stand out like a sore thumb. Colour photographs of actual vehicles are few and far between and in any case I would not trust sixty-five year old colour-values.
So, what do we think? Is it simply a case that the paints are a true match but on small models need to be considerably lightened? Or have the paint manufacturers got it seriously wrong? I await your comments with interest.
There was a good article on the FoW website a while back about which colours to use. A quick look yielded no useful info but I remember that the 'real' was not what gamers were expecting and so used a more beige colour instead. When I get some time I'll see if I can track it down.
Found it, so hopefully it is of use.
http://www.flamesofwar.com/hobby.aspx?art_id=454
I use coat d'arms desert yellow and pale sand, the greener one I use as a base coat, then I highlight with the other and then do a white mix highlight on that
I recall that Duffy makes the point that British scarlet in the horse and musket wars was usually rapidly weathered to a russet red ochre sort of colour that was every bit as practical as the majority of enemy uniforms. Russian armies almost always removed their green coats and fought in bright red jackets. Zulus took off their feathers before going into battle, and Spartans never fought in those long cloaks.
And yet every wargamer paints figures to look like the popular image rather than the reality. I don't think you need worry too much about a few semitones of excessive yellow or brown.
Quickest and easiest I have found is Vallejo Green Ochre with a GW Sepia Wash. There's lots of bits of info on this subject on my blog as well as the finished Panzer pucs (see link in signature below)
Cheers
Craig
Tiny Terrain Models
A tank driver and superb modeller whom I knew many years ago remarked that the British tanks he drove and saw during WW2 in Italy varied from dark olive to pea green. "You just slapped on what ever paint was to hand at the time". I imagine it would have been similar to that for the Germans. The excellent three volume set "Panzer Colours" by Bruce Culver and Bill Murphy, however, tends towards a beige base coat.
It's worth bearing in mind too that camo patterns were mainly decided on by individual field commanders and applied by the vehicle crews whose artistic abilities varied considerably, this led to a lot of variety even within the same units trying to apply a similar design.
Bob
So the general consensus seems to be that, like most things in life, there is no "right" answer. It's a conclusion I had more or less come to myself.
Thank you all for your valuable comments and input and particularly to Steve for pointing up the FoW article, which clarified a lot of my thinking.
Oh, and every crusader army I've seen give the Hospitallers black mantels, which they not surprisingly replaced almost immediately with red after a few days in the middle eastern sun.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 07 September 2012, 08:54:15 AM
Oh, and every crusader army I've seen give the Hospitallers black mantels, which they not surprisingly replaced almost immediately with red after a few days in the middle eastern sun.
Ahem... ;)
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,4706.0.html
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f175/nikharwood/10mm%20Crusaders/STA40086.jpg)
Ah.....
Resistance is feudal.
Oh dear..... ;).
Don't shoot me. It's been a long term.
I hereby declare open season..... :D
should look like this :D
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nUU3pe2Ri8A/UFb0nYr-PPI/AAAAAAAACdQ/9y5R-OaLIbc/s903/Foto0337.jpg)
and some other Pictures:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-eKJfgSD3I4Q/UFb0yt7aWsI/AAAAAAAACdY/i1IqGJYCZxk/s903/%5BUNSET%5D)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-tWDGhZgykqY/UFb07Fg033I/AAAAAAAACdg/uyMOhD5QOv8/s903/%5BUNSET%5D)
I use Model Master paint :
Panzer Dunkelgelb 1943.
Humbrol 94 all the way. The Vallejo German sand is far too dark a shade.
Tamiya Dark Yellow - by far the best.
In reality there is NO correct colour for, as it varided with age, dust and other dirt.
IanS
The company Polly S makes a nice color called German Armour Yellow I believe there still around I bought a ton of that color year's ago and haven't run out yet. I live in the USA so I don't know if the paint is available in the UK hope this help's Good Luck in your search!
Rougue
I've struggled for years to get a Dunkelgelb I was happy with, did not help that I kept changing my mind over whether I was using enamels or acrylics and which brand. Settled on artists acrylics and was happy with Winsor & Newton Green Ochre only to discover about a year ago that it was discontinued so the search began again. After trying a multitude of Acrylic craft paints which are my current favourite I have chosen Folk Art Butter Pecan, daft name but works well for me.
On my 10mm stuff I used to use GW :o desert yellow on a black primer. Two thin coats are generally enough and you get a pretty good base for your panzers. Add your camo, let it all dry and then a wash with future and water. After it dries a light dry brush with GW :o bleached bone (very light or it overpowers the other colours).
It works for me on both small vehicles, kubelewagons etc, and large vehicles, jagdtigers etc.
The bit I really like is I can paint up loads of kit without really watching what I'm doing, set up a production line and you can paint 10 medium tanks in an evening without breaking sweat.
These paints are the only thing I bought regularly from GW
Actually, after much experimentation, I've come up with a mixture I can live with. It's one part terracotta, one part lemon yellow, one part lime green. I'll post a picture of my Kursk Tiger - when the decals finally arrive...
Quote from: Hertsblue on 27 September 2012, 10:16:32 AM
...when the decals finally arrive...
Did someone say decals... http://www.minibits.net/I-94-DecalsTransfers-c23/ (http://www.minibits.net/I-94-DecalsTransfers-c23/)
;) :D
And very nice decals they are too :).
An age old question and one which is very much open to interpretation, i also build 1/35th 1/72 scale kits and this question is discussed frequently, museum exhibits are pretty useless as a gauge as any dulux will do!
For my two penneth I use lifecolour paints, their colours are based on RAL and Federal standard paint chips, of course that does not by any means make them gospel, but its a good starting point, for 35th/72nd I would use RAL 7028 Dunklegelb but for 10mm scale I found RAL 8020 Gelbbraun followed by a thin brown wash and then drybrush the highlights gives a nice look, still working on perfecting it ;)
As to the green and brown camo.......... anything goes, it was supplied as a thick paste and then left to the crews to apply how they felt motivated ;D
Here are some of mine
(http://i1258.photobucket.com/albums/ii527/vladtheoldgoth/DSCF0414.jpg)
Those 10mm or 15? Look great!
Pendrakens very own 10mm :D and thanks for the compliment :) :)
Nice paint job, Vlad. 8)
Quote from: vladgothic on 10 October 2012, 04:17:06 PM
Pendrakens very own 10mm :D and thanks for the compliment :) :)
Even more impressed! 8)
Nicely done vladgothic 8)
Dunkelgelb means dark yellow. I use Howard hues khaki yellow which works a treat. As for cammo patterns, I use GW rotten brown and any dark / medium green that I have lying around. My reference book is d day to Berlin by Terence wise, which explains the patterns, theories and paint application by both the Germans and Allies on the western front.
Quote from: Conan on 17 September 2012, 10:09:00 AM
should look like this :D
(https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-nUU3pe2Ri8A/UFb0nYr-PPI/AAAAAAAACdQ/9y5R-OaLIbc/s903/Foto0337.jpg)
Vallejo Brown Sand 70876 is a good match for the PZ III. Tends to look a bit 'factory fresh' so could do with pale highlighting and weathering for the deserty look. Probably best to mix various shades in vehicles...DAK got what they could get!