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Pendraken News & Info! => General Pendraken => Topic started by: Nav on 06 July 2012, 11:17:43 PM

Title: Modelling Sands
Post by: Nav on 06 July 2012, 11:17:43 PM
can PNMS1 be used as the basing unit for static grass and flock, what i mean is can it be used as the undercoat in a way before static grass is applyed.  :-\
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Leon on 07 July 2012, 01:29:02 AM
Yep, it's a very fine grain, so would be fine for that.  I'll be making some basing kits soon for release under the Minibits banner.

8)
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Nav on 07 July 2012, 02:12:03 AM
Cant wait thanks :D
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Dave Fielder on 19 July 2012, 08:21:49 PM
I've never model sand before. What's best for 10mm sand?
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 19 July 2012, 08:28:33 PM
Second that question!
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: mollinary on 19 July 2012, 08:50:02 PM
Take grains of 5ft 6inches to 6ft sand and smash them into about 180 pieces each.  This should then give you approximately the right size of sand. Or have I misunderstood your intent Dave?  :-\ :-* :-\

Mollinary
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Hertsblue on 20 July 2012, 08:51:07 AM
Stop it, Mollinary, or I'll be giggling all day.  =O
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Dave Fielder on 20 July 2012, 08:59:05 AM
Yeah but that'll make them 1mm scale then!!
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: mollinary on 20 July 2012, 09:44:54 AM
Really Dave?

I am the last to claim any ability in maths, but my arithmetic used to be OK.  At  25mm to the inch, and 12 inches to the foot, I make it 300mm to the foot. So in six feet that would be 1800mm. So if we take a 6ft scale grain of sand, and smash it into 180 pieces, wouldn't we end up with a 10mm scale bit of sand - give or take a bit of windage of course? 

Mollinary
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: cameronian on 20 July 2012, 12:28:32 PM
Obtuse bastard.
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: mollinary on 20 July 2012, 01:16:38 PM
Obtuse *******??  To whom are you referring my good sir?   I believe Dave's first intervention here, when seen in the context of others produced by him at approximately the same time (squashing 15mm down to 10mm), was intended to be humorous - along the line of  "how do you model sand?".  I certainly took it as such, and responded in the same vein.  I also took his 1mm scale comment to be a continuation of the same bit of fun, and responded similarly.     I thought we were all pretty "accute" or, perhaps in the American sense 'cute' on this thread.  Terribly sorry if you have taken it seriously!   Dave, can you assist here?

Mollinary
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Rougue on 20 July 2012, 01:45:16 PM
Nav: Vallejo makes a nice pumice which has a fine grain and looks great when painted I use it on all my base's hope this help's.
                                                                                     Mike :)
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Leon on 20 July 2012, 03:23:25 PM
1:285th-1:144th sand:
(http://www.minibits.net/ProductImages/PNMS1sml.jpg)

1:144th-1:100th sand:
(http://www.minibits.net/ProductImages/PNMS1sml.jpg)

1:100th-1:56th sand:
(http://www.minibits.net/ProductImages/PNMS1sml.jpg)

1:56th-1:1 sand:
(http://www.minibits.net/ProductImages/PNMS1sml.jpg)

That should clear all that up...  :P
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: fred. on 20 July 2012, 03:49:40 PM
I think you have the 2nd and 3rd photos reversed.
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 20 July 2012, 03:54:32 PM
You not stocking 1:300 sand any more then?
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Leon on 20 July 2012, 04:49:39 PM
Quote from: mad lemmey on 20 July 2012, 03:54:32 PM
You not stocking 1:300 sand any more then?

I found it was too hard to get hold of...
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: mollinary on 20 July 2012, 05:04:55 PM
Thanks Leon,

That finally resolves that one!

Mollinary  :)
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: cameronian on 20 July 2012, 08:08:01 PM
Quote from: mollinary on 20 July 2012, 01:16:38 PM
Obtuse *******??  To whom are you referring my good sir?   I believe Dave's first intervention here, when seen in the context of others produced by him at approximately the same time (squashing 15mm down to 10mm), was intended to be humorous - along the line of  "how do you model sand?".  I certainly took it as such, and responded in the same vein.  I also took his 1mm scale comment to be a continuation of the same bit of fun, and responded similarly.     I thought we were all pretty "accute" or, perhaps in the American sense 'cute' on this thread.  Terribly sorry if you have taken it seriously!   Dave, can you assist here?

Mollinary

Er, I thought I was continuing the humerous vein, perhaps it went varicose  :)
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: mollinary on 20 July 2012, 08:19:17 PM
Cam,

This e stuff is horribly complicated and confusing I find. So, continuing in the humorous vein - who exactly is this obtuse b of which you speak? If it should chance that it is I sir, it will be pistols at dawn....................... At about 1,000 miles!   ;D ;D ;D ;D

Yours,

Muddled Mollinary of Mons
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Dave Fielder on 20 July 2012, 09:14:15 PM
Quite frankly you guys now just speaking Algebraic. I can't understand a word. Get back to Imperial please.
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: cameronian on 20 July 2012, 09:16:59 PM
LOL, think we might both miss.

Suffering from acute Bohemian withdrawal syndrome, was checking cheap flights to Prague earlier this evening, must try and normalise my feelings, am drawn to the idea of a log cabin in the vicinty of Trutnov, there to end my days tending the graves and walking the ground until I become part of it. Last night I dreamt I was sitting on the skull at Wenzlburg, just as dusk was falling, listening to the dead conversing with each other as they emerged to light their campfires.
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: mollinary on 20 July 2012, 09:37:01 PM
Hmmm - nothing as vivid as that for me, but my mind keeps going back to that mass grave by (and under) the railroad track at Vysokov.  Hundreds lying in someone's vegetable patch, with no-one even aware of what was, for them quite literally, an issue of life and death.  I hope I have not made my last visit there.

Mollinary
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: cameronian on 21 July 2012, 08:34:57 AM
I hope I have not made my last visit there

Amen to that.
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: sebigboss79 on 21 July 2012, 04:58:51 PM
Okay lets take the question a bit serious: The fine modelling sand works great for 10mms.

If you want it yet finer you shuld check out special "6mm basing kits" some manufaturer(s) have. They also contain extra short grass flocks etc. Maybe something the Pendrakens can look into???

Maybe a word from Nik with his 3mm scale experience?
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Leon on 21 July 2012, 05:19:35 PM
Quote from: sebigboss79 on 21 July 2012, 04:58:51 PM
If you want it yet finer you shuld check out special "6mm basing kits" some manufaturer(s) have. They also contain extra short grass flocks etc. Maybe something the Pendrakens can look into???

The finer sand is fine enough for smaller scales as well, there'd be no problem using it for 6mm's.  Likewise, the static grass is the shorter strand type specifically for use on 6-10mm figures.

8)
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: nikharwood on 21 July 2012, 07:00:07 PM
Quote from: sebigboss79 on 21 July 2012, 04:58:51 PM
Maybe a word from Nik with his 3mm scale experience?

For 3mm I've used a variety of methods really:

1] the same sand mix that I use for 10mm & 28mm [kids play / builder's sharp sand]:
(http://nikharwood.pbworks.com/f/STA40018.JPG)

2] snow paste mix - Woodlands Scenic snow + PVA + water + white paint:
(http://nikharwood.pbworks.com/f/STA40260.JPG)

3] the impressionist mix - just stippled paint & some flock that's drybrushed:
(http://nikharwood.pbworks.com/f/georgia%20t721.JPG)

Same in 2mm:

1] sand:
(http://nikharwood.pbworks.com/f/gauT3cs.JPG)

2] sand & flock:
(http://nikharwood.pbworks.com/f/acwt35.JPG)

3] sand:
(http://nikharwood.pbworks.com/f/STA41831.JPG)
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: robert on 21 July 2012, 08:33:56 PM
I have used bird sand - the stuff you get from pet shop to put in the bottom of budgie cages!

Sounds daft but looks perfect - ask Count Belisarius - he bought some of my 6mm desert stuff off evil bay when I dropped that scale a while ago.

The 'sand' has bits of brown, cream and white grit in it and really does look just right - one tub was about £6 or £7 but at this scale would cover a fair chunk of Libya!

I put my usual filler mix on the base - dry - then paint with Vallejo earth - dry - then water+pva lightly brushed on and sprinkle the budgie sand on whilst wet. 

I do all my bases like that but none sand ones just get autumn mix static grass instead of sand - works for me.
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Count Belisarius on 22 July 2012, 07:20:47 AM
Quote from: robert on 21 July 2012, 08:33:56 PM
I have used bird sand - the stuff you get from pet shop to put in the bottom of budgie cages!

Sounds daft but looks perfect - ask Count Belisarius - he bought some of my 6mm desert stuff off evil bay when I dropped that scale a while ago.

The 'sand' has bits of brown, cream and white grit in it and really does look just right - one tub was about £6 or £7 but at this scale would cover a fair chunk of Libya!

I put my usual filler mix on the base - dry - then paint with Vallejo earth - dry - then water+pva lightly brushed on and sprinkle the budgie sand on whilst wet. 

I do all my bases like that but none sand ones just get autumn mix static grass instead of sand - works for me.

'tis true! :) The sand works really well I think for desert stuff. Because it is partly translucent you can paint the base light or dark and it affects the overall colour when the sand is added. I went for a mid/light brown for my Syrians to give a darker look, and will be going a pale sand colour for my WW2 Brits/Italians as I like the lighter look. The bits of shell etc. give nice contrast. Add the odd clump of grass as well.

You can see the effect here as I discovered that not painting the base first after you've sloshed paint all over while painting the minis affects the end result!

(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pZ5kkn4lKNg/Trlx043sBBI/AAAAAAAAB6w/0RwsF8u6NW4/s1600/syrians16.jpg)

More pics here: http://blog.belisarius.org.uk/2011/11/syrians-and-basing-woes.html (http://blog.belisarius.org.uk/2011/11/syrians-and-basing-woes.html)

Hope that helps

Andy

PS Hi Rob! Hope all well!

PPS. Vallejo German Cam. Black Brown is a perfect match for burnt MDF if you like to leave the base edges!



Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: mollinary on 22 July 2012, 09:54:33 AM
Now we are getting serious again, I use a model railway product I discovered well before Leon began his Minibits business. I use it for both 10mm and 6mm (I found the sand in Pete Berry's otherwise excellent basing packs a bit too fine). I came across it in a shop in Vienna some years ago, but I would be surprised if it is not available in some form in UK.  It is Faller's "749 Sand, erdbraun". It came in 670 gram plastic jars (rather like coffee jars), and I am still working through it. If you like it a bit rougher mix it with some of the smaller railroad ballast available. I have completed several thousand bases using it, and think it does the job well.

Mollinary
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Syr Hobbs on 22 July 2012, 01:29:40 PM
I like to use swimming pool or fish tank filter sand.  or if I can get some, sand from the beaches in Cancun. 

Duane
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 22 July 2012, 06:07:49 PM
Im using 15kg of sandbox sand got from Argos for £3.....should last me out.

IanS  :D
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 22 July 2012, 06:25:52 PM
Just keep the neighbourhood cats out!  :-&
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: nikharwood on 22 July 2012, 08:36:44 PM
Quote from: Syr Hobbs on 22 July 2012, 01:29:40 PM
...or if I can get some, sand from the beaches in Cancun.  

Duane

I'll go grab you some if you like... ;) :D :d

(http://www.cancunissafe.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/n674505482_48193_4266.jpg)
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Syr Hobbs on 22 July 2012, 08:38:49 PM
Now that's some sand I'd be happy to find.

Duane
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Count Belisarius on 22 July 2012, 08:39:54 PM
Quote from: Syr Hobbs on 22 July 2012, 08:38:49 PM
Now that's some sand I'd be happy to find.

Duane

Yes, but where would you put the PVA?
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Dave Fielder on 22 July 2012, 08:49:47 PM
Nik ... that's where me holiday snaps went, thank for finding them.
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Ben Waterhouse on 23 July 2012, 09:19:15 AM
Quote from: nikharwood on 22 July 2012, 08:36:44 PM
I'll go grab you some if you like... ;) :D :d

(http://www.cancunissafe.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/n674505482_48193_4266.jpg)

Nik - the dude that just keeps on giving!  :-bd
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Kiwidave on 23 July 2012, 11:58:29 AM
Quote from: Dave Fielder on 22 July 2012, 08:49:47 PM
Nik ... that's where me holiday snaps went, thank for finding them.

So which one are you then Dave?  ;D
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Nav on 30 July 2012, 07:21:26 PM
Quote from: Rougue on 20 July 2012, 01:45:16 PM
Nav: Vallejo makes a nice pumice which has a fine grain and looks great when painted I use it on all my base's hope this help's.
                                                                                     Mike :)

I know im planning on getting some for christmas or i might get citidel basetex
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: sebigboss79 on 30 July 2012, 07:36:27 PM
Caveat Emptor!!!

Citadels product is used up pretty fast and not called Bastex!

Coat d'Arms product is called this way and I have yet to hear negative feedback about it..but why bother. The Pendraken fine sand is good enough for me and it should be for you ;)
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Nav on 30 July 2012, 09:49:16 PM
Quote from: sebigboss79 on 30 July 2012, 07:36:27 PM
Caveat Emptor!!!

Citadels product is used up pretty fast and not called Bastex!

Coat d'Arms product is called this way and I have yet to hear negative feedback about it..but why bother. The Pendraken fine sand is good enough for me and it should be for you ;)

Sorry about that I some times get citidel and coat d' arms mixed up is the sand able to get between the feet of the miniatures?
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: sebigboss79 on 30 July 2012, 09:52:57 PM
I would say so but careful: The first layer will be very thin.

WAIT untill it is dry and apply THEN the following mix: water, PVA and the desired colour and use the sand again. Adjust quatity in dangerous spots if necessary using and old brush.

WAIT again untill dry and apply a water-PVA topcoat to finish the process.
Title: Re: Modelling Sands
Post by: Nav on 31 July 2012, 02:53:22 AM
Thanks  8) 8)