After it came up in another thread, I thought it was worth throwing this one out to the general Forum:
Do we need 2-day shows? Do you regularly attend both days of any shows yourself? Or do you prefer to get everything done in a single day?
Looking at it from a purely trade/financial aspect, the second day incurs a lot more costs. A hotel for a Friday night is £50, for Fri & Sat it jumps to £140. Extra petrol for those who drive in instead of staying over. Food/drinks for the second day. It all adds up. Also, a single day's venue hire would in theory be cheaper, so that should indirectly bring the cost of the trade stands down as well.
For the visitors, would having to go on a specific day stop you from visiting? We regularly see several clubs who make a weekend of it, the Tring guys at Triples, the Reiver club at Derby, etc. and both me and Dave really enjoy that social aspect to it.
Campaign in Milton Keynes is a two day event, basically so we can get 5 games of 'whateverpeopleareplayingatthemomment' in. Demo and participation can buy in for one or two days, traders, just because of set up times, get two days or nowt!
Personally I like the two day shows especially as it alows the punter to have a relax from whatever stuff is going on in their lives our club decided a couple of years ago to ditch Salute in favour of Triples in fact most of the shows we end up going to are 2 night events. I attend shows with traders and know its hard but can you honestly say that you would make the money sat at home???????? the honest answer for most of the small and medium traders is no. I have had all the reasons but as a punter if I am going to buy a big chunk of kit I wont buy it blind as Dave and Leon can attest to I like to see the stuff first I will then order I did this at Salute last year (it broke Leons Calculator).
In terms of 2 day shows there are events out there which only cater to tournament play and finding a good balance between traders and players is hard Sundays can be quieter but I remember taking 3 times the amount on a Sunday that I did on a Saturday last year a blip maybee but it does happen.
Just My Thoughts
Tom H :d
aka Bilbo
I enjoy the two day shows myself, Triples and Derby in particular as we get to enjoy some downtime with folk as well.
Quote from: Eldamarelf on 23 May 2012, 03:25:14 PM
..but can you honestly say that you would make the money sat at home???????? the honest answer for most of the small and medium traders is no.
We probably could though, when we're not a show, we're casting, and we could cast more stock in a day than we take on some of the Sundays.
:-\
Quote from: Leon on 23 May 2012, 03:35:53 PM
I enjoy the two day shows myself, Triples and Derby in particular as we get to enjoy some downtime with folk as well.
We probably could though, when we're not a show, we're casting, and we could cast more stock in a day than we take on some of the Sundays.
:-\
As Do I oh and you are not a small or medium trader either young one!! I can cast more stock but stock needs a place to live where being at a show gets rid of some of the stock a cach 22 situation how many of the orders come from people who see your stuff at shows then order not many order blind any more I know that you get a tidy increase in internet sales after a show.
Tom H
aka Bilbo
I would only go to one day, Bovington is tempting for camping and the tanks but the show itself is not enough for me for 2 days
r.e. Bovington, its a two day show more of a social show than anything else I have been for either 9 or ten years its one I try not to mis camping there has gone up trading pitches have also gone up but the social on the Saturday night is worth it in my humble opinion the same as the other two day shows it offers something diferent how many shows can you go to and see tanks running around outside or play a 1/72 game next to a 1/1 tank????
Tom h
aka Bilbo
I cant find the time (or the money) to attend one day shows let alone two day ones >:(
The two day shows were originally major competitions, one day ones either open days or a means to make money for the orgainsers (mostly the former). In essence if I'm going to travel more than 100 miles then I'm going for two days, and playing games, nothing else is cost effective. Far as I am concerend both Shefield and Leeds are local, easy to get to and from (despite the fact that IT ALWAYS SNOWS WHEN I GO TO SHEF!). Phalanx is the nearest trade show, and is a 1 dayer, whilst Gauntlet, at Broughton, is 2 days cause it was started as 6th editon comp.
In general I suspect that the two day trade show is just about dead, but the 2 day comp is here to stay.
IanS :)
Hi Tom
I enjoyed the curry, your bull and the girly drink you introduced me to on the Saturday night :P
On the two day shows for socializing its great, for trading poor - I do like a relaxing night 8)
Dave (post number 32)
I would have said no but now I intrigued by Bovington - what's with all the camping ?
Quote from: goat major on 23 May 2012, 09:12:08 PM
I would have said no but now I intrigued by Bovington - what's with all the camping ?
Its a good excuse to let thy hair down, Camping is optional but worth it can be a bit rough portable toilets and all but I would be very unhappy if i could not go!!
Tom H
aka Bilbo
Quote from: Dave on 23 May 2012, 08:55:55 PM
Hi Tom
I enjoyed the curry, your bull and the girly drink you introduced me to on the Saturday night :P
On the two day shows for socializing its great, for trading poor - I do like a relaxing night 8)
Dave (post number 32)
I certanly enjoyed the curry and my Chocolate Heaven as did you Dave, I know that the second day can be quiet in fact it was mentioned by our lot that the hall looked emptier than the previouse year.
Tom H
aka Bilbo
Quote from: Leon on 23 May 2012, 02:50:58 PM
After it came up in another thread, I thought it was worth throwing this one out to the general Forum:
Do we need 2-day shows? Do you regularly attend both days of any shows yourself? Or do you prefer to get everything done in a single day?
We regularly see several clubs who make a weekend of it, the Tring guys at Triples, the Reiver club at Derby, etc. and both me and Dave really enjoy that social aspect to it.
As one of the Tring club that went to Triples, its the only show we really attend on two days. Its a chance to socialise and sample some of the excellent (and Cheap Beer) you find "Up North". The more local two days shows we only attend on one day. Granted some times some will go Saturday and others Sunday, but no one attends both days. If they can't make either they give a shopping list to someone who is going.
We did a Demo game at Milton Keynes a couple of years ago, but it was difficult to get enough members to man it. Again we had different people on different days.
I helped out a couple of trader friends for several years , and wargamers attend a show and spend thier money on a single day. Very few attend both days apart from the competition players and in general they are not big spenders, being more interested in the games.
Most people go with a budet in mind and will only spend that amount. If its a two day show they will simply spread the budget over the two days. If traders are not going to take significantly more money at a two day show the additional costs have to be absorbed as an overhead - possibly increasing the cost to the rest of us. I think its only the competition players who want two day shows. So the rest of the hobby could well be seen as subsidising them.
I usually only get chance to attend on one day and am usually spent up by the end. I attended triples and have to agree that it went quiet in the afternoon (but it was a tad easier to shop at the time) So probably for the casual attendee a one day show would be perhaps better. Mind you, if I had had to come on the second day, my kids would have bled me dry of cash.... :P
I'm a one dayer, as the cost of getting off the Wight precludes being able to afford hotels as well (I did enough camping in t'Territorials to last me the rest of my natural, thank you very much...)
I just don't get out much ;) ;D
Never attended both days of a 2 day show, nearest I've come is attending on different days in different years. Show was To the Redoubt Eastbourne much preferred the Sunday, the one time I went on the Saturday most of the games had no-one at them and those that did just seem to be leisurely setting up, so diddly squat to see as a punter really. As a trader or club presenting a game 2 days may suit better (depending on accommodation costs) but has to be one day as a paying customer for me.
Just a thought :-\
If the traders find that a two day show is significant additional expense for only a small additional return, what would happen if they got together and told the show organisers "en block" we are only willing to pay to attend on a single day?
Would It would leave room for different traders on different days which might encourage more punters to attend one or both days?
Would it cause the show to go to one day?
Would the competition players have to pay more?
Would there be less competitions?
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 26 May 2012, 08:18:50 PM
If the traders find that a two day show is significant additional expense for only a small additional return, what would happen if they got together and told the show organisers "en block" we are only willing to pay to attend on a single day?
There's been talk for years about the traders grouping together and organising a show, but it just couldn't work. You've got dozens of companies, who would all want the best stand location, or wouldn't want any competitors there, etc. etc., so there's too much conflict for it to go smoothly.
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 26 May 2012, 08:18:50 PM
Would It would leave room for different traders on different days which might encourage more punters to attend one or both days?
I think you'd get a lot of conflict between traders wanting to get the Saturday spots for better sales, and the second day would be even worse.
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 26 May 2012, 08:18:50 PM
Would it cause the show to go to one day?
Probably over time.
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 26 May 2012, 08:18:50 PM
Would the competition players have to pay more?
I'm not sure how much they pay, but there seems to be less of them recently. The thing is, on the whole, the comp gamers don't seem to come and spend at the shows much. Could the comps be squeezed into a single day?
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 26 May 2012, 08:18:50 PM
Would there be less competitions?
Not sure on this one, as I'm not really up on the various comps which are run.
We at Exeter Legionary put on a one day show, which both punters and traders are beginning to enjoy very much. It has an informal approach with some good games and all the usual stuff you'd expect. We do anticipate an increase in traders next year (4th May 2013 ... Star Wars Day) which will be the third year at the "Cow Shed" in Exeter which is proving to be a very good location for parking, access and space. For us (the Exmouth Club) two days will not work that well due to the amount of extra work it will involve as we only have a limited amount of people to set up and put away. I did notice that we had a very large contingent of comeptition players (40K and WHF) who spent their time doing just that and a large portion who stayed away from the centre and concentrated on the games and traders. Two days would certainly be a more social affair with many staying the extra night in the West Country but it would exhaust the club members, many of whom have day jobs. Would be keen to hear from traders more about what they realistically expect from a show ... I wonder what Pendraken would like from a show in Devon on 4th May 2013? :-\
Quote from: Dave Fielder on 07 June 2012, 01:07:05 PM
I wonder what Pendraken would like from a show in Devon on 4th May 2013? :-\
Unfortunately the date clashes with the Carronade show up in Falkirk, which we've been doing ever since it started. If Dave had ever managed to sort his move to Cornwall though, the Legionary show would have become his 'local' show and we'd have been there with bells on!
Falkirk / Exeter ... Not much between the two really! I used to commute from Exmouth to Arbroath when part of 45 Commando.
Shame though would have been good to get you guys along.
Quote from: Dave Fielder on 16 June 2012, 10:09:35 PM
Falkirk / Exeter ... Not much between the two really! I used to commute from Exmouth to Arbroath when part of 45 Commando.
Shame though would have been good to get you guys along.
Never say never though, if any dates change over the next couple of years we could look at it again.
Can't say I have ever been to a two day show, and now at the edge of empire that looks even less likely :'(
Longer shows are the North American norm, but then they are spread over the landscape a lot more (closest to me is about an 8 hour drive, big ones a two hour flight) so it's worth staying two days.
In the UK where (if I understand the show circuit correctly) you (that is, a typical gamer) are likely to have at least one you can get to with middling-sane travel, possibly by transit, would there be the same need?
Quote from: lentulus on 29 June 2012, 01:44:04 AM
Longer shows are the North American norm, but then they are spread over the landscape a lot more (closest to me is about an 8 hour drive, big ones a two hour flight) so it's worth staying two days.
I live about 20 miles outside London - If I was prepared for an 8 hour drive I could probably attend nearly any show in England, Scotland Or Wales. As it is I am fortunate in that I must have 3 big shows and 3 small ones all within an hours drive each way. Thats without bothering to go into or across London. If I did this I would also add two of the biggest shows in the south of england. SELWG and Salute.
Makes me realise how fortunate I am .
From where I live, just north of London it's possible to get to the Midlands or the south coast and back in a day. Anything further would require a stopover. However, it's not distance that dictates which shows I go to primarily, but the counter-pressures of family life. =)
Quote from: Leon on 23 May 2012, 02:50:58 PM
Do we need 2-day shows?
'We?'
'Need?'
For me, shows are rarely big enough to warrant more than a couple of hours tops, let alone 2 days.
Tournaments are a different matter an i'll regularly attend 2-day tournaments, amking a social weekend of it typically, with a bunch of chaps from the club. You also get to know tournament players from other clubs so its a chance to meet up.
QuoteDo you regularly attend both days of any shows yourself?
No. Most UK shows are 'doable' in a couple of hours. I've even been at tournaments at shows and had enough time between games to get round everything else (e.g. Vapnartak)
QuoteOr do you prefer to get everything done in a single day?
Yep.
QuoteFor the visitors, would having to go on a specific day stop you from visiting?
No.
QuoteWe regularly see several clubs who make a weekend of it, the Tring guys at Triples, the Reiver club at Derby, etc. and both me and Dave really enjoy that social aspect to it.
Aye the social aspect of the hobby is very important. Wargaming is, ultimately a social activity after all (which i guess is why we ike it!)
I seem to remember reading an estimate some time ago that there are about 50,000 wargamers (not counting the GW crew) in the UK. Always wondered how cool it would be to get us all together in one place at one time!
12,000 tables laid out at Wembley could do a massed doubles tournament event...make it 10mm and Pendraken's sale would tear GW a new one! ;D :D
Only ever do 1 day as a punter, have done a 2 dayers at Bovvy and to be frank I am bored titless by 11am on the second day =)
The thing is that many traders are all over the net and most given a few days will send you plenty of pics, so the need to see stuff in the flesh and hoard your orders for a big show has disappeared for me. Yes theres postage costs but on 6mm, 10mm compared to travel expenses they are minimal. many traders have stopped doing special deals at shows as the costs for them are too high to go mad and offer big discounts.
With the arrival of evilbay much of what is at the tabletop sales are not such a draw anymore, so the only reason I go to shows is either to put on a demo table to show my terrain off int he hope of getting 1 or 2 interested customers (and then I only do 1 day) , to browse and get a few ideas of what's popular (so I know what to make and sell with my Tiny Terrain head on), or to get ideas how other people have painted and modelled stuff.
As a trader I wouldnt take a stand, I have enough custom modelling stuff to keep me ticking over using the net and personal recommedations, although I am only doing this as a part time thing to fund my lead habit not as a business that I rely onto feed the sproggs.
From a social perpective, I'd rather do a Nikfest or similar once or twice a year, and go for a few freindly games and a beer and pizza........much more relaxed.
Cheers,
Craig
Tiny Terrain Models
BTW did I mention I make custom terrain? Roll up....roll up, get your terrain here Etc
Prefer 1 day, as usually bored to death after circuit of venue, unless i get talking to friendly staff members, i think a lot of wargame demos or participation games the main players are very stuck up unless you seem to ask right questions (i.e im new to this can you give me some info. is not a good question). i was at Wartorn 2days in Scarborough last month and even Warlord (who were showing off new rules & supposedly giving pdfs/printouts of basic rules but didnt) couldnt be arsed with the public (played their own game). not like the fantastic guys who were at the Birthday party
in resort towns/big cities you pay a lot for parking & hotels so value wise its off limits to me, unless i have friends/relatives close by.