After it came up in another thread, I thought it was worth starting a new one. How does your personal connection to a conflict affect your desire to game it?
For instance, when we released the WWII Pacific and SCW ranges, we saw new customers/orders coming from Japan and Spain respectively, showing that people wanted to game something connected to their region. Similarly with the AVBCW, is the popularity in being able to customise the game to your own location? Or alternatively, does a personal connection stop you from gaming certain periods?
:-\
I've enjoyed working on the LoA in various scales, because of the Williamite war, which to me is a local subject, though I descend from the loosing side. Commemoration of that conflict is still a live political issue where I am (when I was at school in the 90s it brought the place to the edge of chaos), but I've never been detered from the history because of cultural baggage, plus more importantly, the hats are cool.
Similarily I've recently been working on the Irish armies of the 16th Century, and I've enjoyed that; the wars of Elizabeth and The O'Neill and others are really interesting, I think they should get more attention from gamers.
Both examples are not personal connections per se, they are too long ago, but they are immediate to me because their ressonnances are alive and kicking in the present day and would very quickly result in dispute (to put it mildly) if discussed publicly.
Not at all. For instance, despite living at various times in Brno and Bangkok, I have no interest in their armies, especially since 1) Hussites are virtually unbeatable; and 2) Thais are virtually unable to win.
I resisted doing the Zulu wars for a long time while living in Durban too; when I was eventually lured into the period, I found it lots of fun in a sort of a Harry Flashman way, but have no desire to repeat it. For me it's about the tactical intesrest and the aesthetics; where I am is irrelevant.
Hmmmm ...... Good question Leon!
Certainly that does with VBCW as I've really enjoyed learning my local history and applying it to the game. Other than that I'm not sure. The only conflict I've had really had 'personal connection' with is the Falklands war - only reason I didn't get there was nearly losing my leg in a motorcycle accident (it put an end to any ideas of a military career) and yet I've had little desire to game it ..... Perhaps it's too close.
The main thing that influences my gaming choices are books and films that spark an interest and lead to further research and miniature purchases.
Cheers,
Kev
I've avoided conflicts I had experience in (Gulf, Bosnia and NI) but did do some comprehensive work on a CWC Balkans Conflict listings for Pete
Quote from: Squirrel on 11 March 2012, 08:12:24 AM
Hmmmm ...... Good question Leon!
Certainly that does with VBCW as I've really enjoyed learning my local history and applying it to the game. Other than that I'm not sure. The only conflict I've had really had 'personal connection' with is the Falklands war - only reason I didn't get there was nearly losing my leg in a motorcycle accident (it put an end to any ideas of a military career) and yet I've had little desire to game it ..... Perhaps it's too close.
It IS an
excellent question.
Can't speak at all from personal experience...Only from 'heresay'.
So....Going off on a slight tangent.......
Heard an interesting discussion on the radio months (?) ago when (I believe) a new PS game came out regarding the conflict in Afghanistan. (A new Call of Duty ?)
One side of the argument was that it was completely tasteless and far too graphic....The other that it was pure escapism.
The two sides were both 'championed' by men who had served there.
The way the discussion came across, it
sounded as though there would be serving members of the forces and their families that would find the game extremely offensive.....But they'd be outnumbered by serving soldiers who would actually play the game......It
appeared as though there were probably more that wouldn't be too bothered one way or the other.
(My interpretation of what was said.)
I guess is that it's completely down to how each individual feels....As the saying goes, one man's meat is another one's poison.
Should be a very interesting thread.
Cheers - Phil.
Difficult one this: Shropshire is where my heart is, hence i have ksli for wwi and wwii,but I live in Bedfordshire now! I have hms Duke of York for wwii, as Grandad was in charge of her post side secondary armament, but all not in ten millimeters scale!
otherwise my love of halflings comes from being a hairy footed food lover! FrancoPrussian because i got dragged along on a Timecast research trip to the 1870 battlefields and loved it!
May do 1982 because of Barrie from timecast being one of my oldest friends, and i have the airpower from Tumbling Dice already!
Quote from: Leon on 11 March 2012, 12:02:52 AM
How does your personal connection to a conflict affect your desire to game it?
For instance, when we released the WWII Pacific and SCW ranges, we saw new customers/orders coming from Japan and Spain respectively, showing that people wanted to game something connected to their region.
I definitely think it can have an effect on one's interest, depending on the game i suppose. Tournament play for example, for me at least, will see me taking a competitive army (except if its French) irrespective of origin.
Other than that, my interest tends to be led by a wide variety of issues. Personal connection is rarely one of them.
QuoteSimilarly with the AVBCW, is the popularity in being able to customise the game to your own location?
This, interestingly is an exception - probably because the basic premise of the setting is that you SHOULD link it to your local area...i an my compatriots have certainly embraced that although not being a native to my current region, i have
familiarity rather than personal investment...
QuoteOr alternatively, does a personal connection stop you from gaming certain periods?
:-\
No, but i can certainly see how it would.
'We forgive as we forget'.
In general i think there's likely to be discomfort or even possible hostility from certain quarters on gaming particularly more recent conflicts (Iraq, Afghanistan, IRA etc.) I've recently been doing some Force on Force Afghan gaming. Its definitely a good tactical game, but it does have an uncomfortable 'racist' element to it (the 'irregulars' re typically a faceless horde to be mown down by the heroic 'western' forces). I certainly wouldn't put on a demonstration game at a convention, for fear of causing offence...
What I personally find distasteful is those WW2 gamers who are obsessed with the SS, I play WW2 but there are no SS in my German forces, too many atrocities committed to include them in a game.
Playing the SCW would not seem right either, as an ex-girlfriend and her family suffered under Franco. She once took me on a tour of her home town showing me bullet holes in the walls of the place she was hiding after an anti-Franco demo was broken up near the end of his reign. Throwing dice seems to trivialise things a bit.
In AVBCW which I also play, I do have BUF units, but here the fascists are not real, the atrocities were never committed, it is just a fantasy game.
Quote from: Techno on 11 March 2012, 09:46:03 AM
Heard an interesting discussion on the radio months (?) ago when (I believe) a new PS game came out regarding the conflict in Afghanistan. (A new Call of Duty ?)
One side of the argument was that it was completely tasteless and far too graphic....The other that it was pure escapism.
The two sides were both 'championed' by men who had served there.
The way the discussion came across, it sounded as though there would be serving members of the forces and their families that would find the game extremely offensive.....But they'd be outnumbered by serving soldiers who would actually play the game......It appeared as though there were probably more that wouldn't be too bothered one way or the other. (My interpretation of what was said.)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/us-soldier-shoots-16-afghan-civilians-including-nine-children-7559098.html
Perhaps it things like this they fear
An interesting comment with regards to atrocities Sandanista. All sides commited atrocities, some more, some less than the SS. It is only now that the Allied atrocities are being 'openly' talked about.
With regards to games, I just play any force or period that grabs my fancy. However, I would find it difficult to play the Japanese due to their history of war crimes, yet I will happily play Russians, some of whom had a very bad reputation to say the least.
Having had very little connection with the military (the school army cadet force was the limit of my experience) I would not say that I have any particular aversion to any conflict or army. My only reservation vis-a-vis bad taste is that I will never paint or use casualty markers. The provision of miniature dead bodies has always seemed to me to lift the experience out of the "game" and into something a little more grim. Eccentric? Possibly, but that's me. 8-}
Good question indeed. Actually there's only one conflict with which I have tangible personal connections. However, I absolutely do not like WW2 wargaming, as I #@?+' hate this topic and everything connected with it.
Concerning the rest: well, my grand-grandfather was wounded in Italy in 1917, but there's no urgent desire in me to replay the moment when an italian barrage turned his trench into a pile of smoking rubble. I'd rather go for the Eastern Front, because I like Slavic languages and I'm quite often in Poland and I have no connections to it.
Quote from: Techno on 11 March 2012, 09:46:03 AM
Heard an interesting discussion on the radio months (?) ago when (I believe) a new PS game came out regarding the conflict in Afghanistan. (A new Call of Duty ?)
One side of the argument was that it was completely tasteless and far too graphic....The other that it was pure escapism.
The two sides were both 'championed' by men who had served there.
The way the discussion came across, it sounded as though there would be serving members of the forces and their families that would find the game extremely offensive.....But they'd be outnumbered by serving soldiers who would actually play the game......It appeared as though there were probably more that wouldn't be too bothered one way or the other. (My interpretation of what was said.)
There was a post somewhere (I can't remember if it was on here or not), and I've also had email conversations with serving members of the forces who are actually gaming the same situations they are facing day in and day out. It doesn't get more personal than that!
When I do do Canucks in Italy I will certainly do my uncle's regiment.
None at the moment, though.
"What I personally find distasteful is those WW2 gamers who are obsessed with the SS, I play WW2 but there are no SS in my German forces, too many atrocities committed to include them in a game."
These units are a part of history, and the atrocities commited by them should never be forgotten. I have modelled a SS unit (12th SS) for BKCII because they were the "Big Enemy" my Countrymen faced in Normandy in '44 (I'm Canadian incedently). If I were to start work on an Italian Front Canadian force it would be modelled on the Princess Pat's, my Dad's old Regt.
My interests are based pretty much on the academic side of things. I game the eras that I have personally studied over the years. I personally have not, thank God, had any direct connection to a world conflict.
Nah not me, I game whatever looks pretty ;D
My great uncle was in the US 1st ID, during the Bulge. As a result, I've got US infantry and 12.SS as I've been able to pin down my uncles' company to a particular part of the overall battle.
I found all this out years after he passed away; I was at his funeral and saw the color guard, but he never talked about his experiences in the war, IFAIK.
As a second related project, I'm looking ahead to the 30 Years War in the coming months. It's got a religious connection for me, but I won't go into that here. :-\
Quote from: GordonY on 12 March 2012, 08:18:02 AM
Nah not me, I game whatever looks pretty ;D
Yep - pretty much the same for me; I've got a few links - including some contemporary ones in-theatre - but nothing's got in the way of me
gaming them...
@Leon: I've sent painted ultra-moderns out to a few guys I know in Iraq / 'stan who've used them to game with on their tours. There's a certain Major Fielder who knocks around here sometimes who's been known to pack figures for painting in his kitbag ;) :)
I've gamed some ancient games ... does this mean I'm really old?
Back to the original question: I've never felt the desire to re-create any operations I've been on, mainly because my gaming interests lie in more historical gaming such a Napoleonics, ACW, mid 19th Century. I do play and enjoy 20th century and modern games (the tribal leader Fizwallah was the last victim of US-NATO forces led by my brilliant military genius) but have used my military career mainly for military tourism (thanks Mr Taxpayer much appreciated) e.g. I was on an international exercise in Ukraine and used the opportunity to visit Sevastapol and the battlefield of Balaclava and of course have been to Normandy many times:
http://exmouthwargames.blogspot.com/2007/06/this-is-for-brett-lovely-lovely.html
http://exmouthwargames.blogspot.com/2007/06/d-day-6-june-2007.html
http://www.blitzkrieg-commander.com/Content/Gallery/default.aspx?Page=3
Quote from: Dave Fielder on 13 March 2012, 08:55:43 AM
I've gamed some ancient games ... does this mean I'm really old?
Looking at your profile, you're not there yet... but well on the way. :D
Well, I do fantasy. :-\ Some would claim that most of the time I'm away with the fairies!
But seriously, I interest myself in genres that are sufficiently fictional (fantasy, scifi, pulp) that there can't be any personal connection.
Quote from: Sandinista on 11 March 2012, 03:00:43 PM
What I personally find distasteful is those WW2 gamers who are obsessed with the SS, I play WW2 but there are no SS in my German forces, too many atrocities committed to include them in a game..
WhileI agree with Sandanistas comment, there were plenty of atrocities commited by all sides. My Ex wife's uncle, was German and he was defending the beaches. When his unit tried to surrender to Canadian troops they machine gunned everyone in the trench . He dived to the floor of the trench and lay under his dead comrades until dark, then found some Yanks to surrender to. 40 years later with a landscape gardening business in Australia the Canadian Embasy asked to maintain thier gardens - His reply was unprintable, he was not even interested in taking thier money becuase of it.
Slightly different but the same type of thing, if you know what I mean. I’m currently spending around 3 hours a day at the moment travelling back and forth to work so I’m re-reading some old books.
The one I started today was about the Iran v Iraq war in the 80’s. Now I’ve been down this path before thinking what a great wargaming period. A chocolate box of kit with a choice of Chieftains, M60s, T62s, T55s, BMP etc, etc all rounded off with attack helicopters and for good measure Iranian human wave tactics!!
As I look deeper you have Iraqi and Iranian regulars with Iranian Pasdaran irregular infantry carrying out fanatical massed infantry attacks.
All that’s OK but then again I read about the Basij. The Basij were school children as young as 12 who Khomeini as a special favour allowed to fight for their country. Mullahs would actively go into schools to recruit these kids. The Basij were basically cannon fodder sent in to clear mine fields by getting blown up or exhaust the ammunition of the defenders by suicidal attacks.
Apart from almost pulling my hair out at the attitude of these people >:( I think do I really want to wargame that? No, it would be just distasteful I think.
So I have no personal involvement but still decide not to wargame it.
Cheers, Rob :)
Take it you don't just mean a personal connection to 'shiney shiney'. Otherwise that's all of us.
I love history, particularly military history. Therefore anything's game as long as I can get the 'shiney shiney'. I've just ordered some WWI stuff because someone's been putting batreps up and talking about it and I've just read a book, seen a documentary and stuff.
The only stuff I don't do is modern, as I'm an ex-squaddie. No war stories or anything just don't seem right somehow.
N.B. Plastic soldiers are not 'shiney shiney' and therefore should be avoided like like a menopausal leopard or ice in a single malt whiskey.
Quote from: Leveller Mutineer on 15 March 2012, 10:34:45 PM
The only stuff I don't do is modern, as I'm an ex-squaddie. No war stories or anything just don't seem right somehow.
N.B. Plastic soldiers are not 'shiney shiney' and therefore should be avoided like like a menopausal leopard or ice in a single malt whiskey.
With you on most counts except Whisky. A drinks not worth drinking unless it has substance - i.e. its a MEAL :)
I'm an ex-squaddie too - just not one of those 'orificer' type's who drinks girls drinks.
Bring on the gorilla snot! Baileys, Lime and Peanuts.... normally followed by a visit to the glasshouse and an invite to the
Really
Scary
Monsters office on Monday morning with a short, sharp exchange of one way words followed by ROPES and more extra duties than you can shake a shitty stick at :D
Quote from: Just a few Orcs on 15 March 2012, 08:15:43 AM
WhileI agree with Sandanistas comment, there were plenty of atrocities commited by all sides. My Ex wife's uncle, was German and he was defending the beaches. When his unit tried to surrender to Canadian troops they machine gunned everyone in the trench . He dived to the floor of the trench and lay under his dead comrades until dark, then found some Yanks to surrender to. 40 years later with a landscape gardening business in Australia the Canadian Embasy asked to maintain thier gardens - His reply was unprintable, he was not even interested in taking thier money becuase of it.
That's quite an interesting observation concerning war memories..some people bear their former enemy a grudge, some don't.
I rember very well when we German youngsters were in England for the first time and stayed with a host family near London. They were an elderly couple and he took part in Operation Market Garden 44' (and could tell the most amazing war stories ;)) I've sent him a painted 54mm British Paratropper as Christmas present years later; sadly, they quit writing us last year and we fear one of them might have passed away since they both were already quite old when we were there many years ago.
A very interesting topic. My take is really a mixture of the above; a love for military history, a connection to a number of British regiments and their antecedents I have been around one way or another ( in no particular order DWR, RRF, RHAMPS, HAC) tend to end up on the table. WWII is usually desert and Eighth Army as my father in law served in the Royal Regiment '42 to '47 - ending up as infantry RA fighting Greek communists on the Bulgarian-Greek border (Now there's a game idea), and 11 RHA (HAC) were in the desert also. Plus the usual megalomania - I "am" Napoleon...
I have two strands of thought on this - my dad served in the Royal Signals attached to 51st Highland Div. as part of 30 Corps - he was in North Africa, Sicily, Normandy and all the way up to Bremen via the Rhine bridges and Ardennes - 51st were everywhere! I intend to 'do' WW2 by using scenarios to 're-enact' some of the famous actions the Division and my Dad was involved/partially involved in.
Currently I am on holiday in Alnwick and am taking in the wonderful local countryside - in particular the area around Embleton on the coast - an absolute must for AVBCW/Sealion scenarios:
Embleton has a fantastic beach - perfect for German landings - we knew this so bulit several pillboxes to cover it and they are still here - the local golf club, Dunstanburgh Castle, would not allow engineers access to demolish them after the war :) try Google earth for the area - just inland is Brunton airfield and then immediately you have the North-South rail line parallel to the beach then half a mile or so inland the A1 trunk road. All of these can easily be fitted onto a wargames table (when scaled down!)
Embleton is a sleppy northern coastal village - lovely old Norman church and another pillbox in the corner of a field next to the church, covering the crossroads up from the beach. The personal connection is being able to do the walks my wife loves to do whilst planning wargames inmy head using the local scenery - stone walls, small hedges, copses, beaches etc. Perfect relaxation - keeping her content and playing games in my head:)
Quote from: robert on 28 March 2012, 08:24:26 AM
Embleton has a fantastic beach - perfect for German landings - we knew this so bulit several pillboxes to cover it and they are still here - the local golf club, Dunstanburgh Castle, would not allow engineers access to demolish them after the war :)
How right they were! At Dawlish Warren in Devon the local club allowed the Royal Marines to blow up one of the three pill-boxes on the sand-spit the course stands on. Result - pill-box still standing (virtually undamaged) and the club picking debris off the greens for several years after. ;D
Quote from: Rob on 15 March 2012, 10:00:18 PM
All that’s OK but then again I read about the Basij. The Basij were school children as young as 12 who Khomeini as a special favour allowed to fight for their country. Mullahs would actively go into schools to recruit these kids. The Basij were basically cannon fodder sent in to clear mine fields by getting blown up or exhaust the ammunition of the defenders by suicidal attacks.
Apart from almost pulling my hair out at the attitude of these people >:( I think do I really want to wargame that? No, it would be just distasteful I think.
So I have no personal involvement but still decide not to wargame it.
Cheers, Rob :)
Rob:
I've played some Iran-Iraq war games and have a small Iranian army. I agree with what you said about the Basij. In the game I'm working on, a human wave night attack, I give the Iranian player a number of points. Since it's a night game, the Iranian player allocates the points to a part of the battlefield. If the Iraq player chooses to destroy the points, that position is revealed. If not, then a certain amount of minefield is removed.
There is NO way I was going to paint children to be slaughtered. Maybe a 'cop-out' on my part but that's how I choose to represent it.
I used to game with a person that would not use flame throwers in any of games. That was his personal 'line in the sand' and I respected that.
Dale
Quote from: robert on 28 March 2012, 08:24:26 AM
Embleton is a sleppy northern coastal village -
I bet the people living there wouldn't thank you for calling their home sleppy. Doesn't sound like a term of praise at all.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 03 April 2012, 11:06:54 AM
I bet the people living there wouldn't thank you for calling their home sleppy. Doesn't sound like a term of praise at all.
I don't know. Sleppy villages sound like a bit more fun than sleepy villages.
I game anything usually, but recently have been considering doing some local projects. Been wondering about using Hail Caesar to do the Battle of Dyrham (Dark Ages) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Deorham as I live about 5 miles from battle site and also with Pike and Shotte on the way I wouldnt mind having a go at Battle of Lansdown (ECW) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lansdowne , again because its only a couple of miles down the road from me.
I've no military connection, nor religious one, my favourite army is Ottoman Turks for the Napoleonic era, and I have sundry arab armies from 1805 to 1990, but I'm not a muslim. Although Turkey is the only foreign country I have visited. And I have a 1798 Papacy army but am not catholic. So am not sure what drives my army collections, other than the desire to have a brigade from EVERY army :'(
WW2 Hungarians? 1948 Egyptians? 1798 Irish? No idea! But I've got 'em :-\
My dad was in the REME in national service, and I tend to put ARVs in all my mechanised units, but only because we have rules for AFV breakdown and recovery.
Mark
Never heard of the Battle of Deorham Chris, but another game to be played added to the list :).