(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k611/technodestructorman/IMGP3909.jpg)
And some of the Carthaginians that are all but finished (Though I'm not sure if the Iberian swordsman is really surplus to requirements.)
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k611/technodestructorman/IMGP3967.jpg)
Sorry the pic isn't quite as sharp as I'd like....but here are the remainder of the Carthaginian 'infantry'.
There will be one more for certain....The Iberian swordsman from the first photo will be getting a 'colleague' in the shape of the one that Bertie suggested...i.e a spear and large scutum....The chap second from the left above has a 'feed' to the bottom of his spear...designed to be chopped out.....But you all knew that already ;)
Hope they're OK !
Cheers - Phil.
look awesome, great work!! specially the archers and the first from the left. Great poses, very nice detail!
The iberian with the falcata, seems great to me
Thanks Guys...
The 'basic' Carthaginians should be on their way to that nice Mr Leon early next week....Which leaves the 'extra' Iberian chap...The elephant and crew...And some cavalry to do to finish the range off for the time being !
Cavalry will take a little longer to do, as I've got some 'plain' horse dollies to completely finish....Before they go up to Pendraken HQ for casting.
Cheers - Phil
Thanks again, jchaos !
Cheers - Phil.
Excellent stuff as usual Phil 8)
CHeers,
Kev
Great figures. Almost makes me want to give up my forty-year prejudice against ancients. ;)
Thanks Hertsblue !
As Nik just said in the Flying carpet thread, "You know you want to," ;)
Cheers - Phil.
Thanks Kev.
Cheers - Phil.
Quote from: jchaos79 on 22 October 2011, 06:48:18 PM
look awesome, great work!! specially the archers and the first from the left. Great poses, very nice detail!
To be most candid, I liked the figures, but not necessarily as Carthaginians, Vikings perhaps. Why? Archers? I realize that the carthaginians employed mauretanians as archers, but I think more of the balearics and other ethnics as the preferred skirmish types. They should be a great addition but I would like to see a more African cast to these figures. Also, I did not get the chill factor that I was facing the best of the best- the Libyan-Phoenician mediuym/heavy infantry. Was there anything uniquely Carthaginian about these figures? Also, some like two greaves and others one. Do people want to paint a whole phalanx of men holding their spear with one hand so high in the air? Then there is the issue as to how long the spears were? For this reason, I liked better the two spearmen holding the spear horizontal to the ground. :-\
I particularly like the advancing spearman. They look like they would also make good Spartans.
Quote from: Urbinoprince on 24 October 2011, 05:35:52 PM
To be most candid, I liked the figures, but not necessarily as Carthaginians, Vikings perhaps. Why? Archers? I realize that the carthaginians employed mauretanians as archers, but I think more of the balearics and other ethnics as the preferred skirmish types. They should be a great addition but I would like to see a more African cast to these figures. Also, I did not get the chill factor that I was facing the best of the best- the Libyan-Phoenician mediuym/heavy infantry. Was there anything uniquely Carthaginian about these figures? Also, some like two greaves and others one. Do people want to paint a whole phalanx of men holding their spear with one hand so high in the air? Then there is the issue as to how long the spears were? For this reason, I liked better the two spearmen holding the spear horizontal to the ground. :-\
Hi Urbinoprince...
I'm afraid, as usual, I'm relying on others' research for the basis for these models....(Ahem) Mostly Osprey books ....... It'll be up to Leon & Dave...But I'd never be surprised if the range was expanded at
some time in the future....(some possibilties for me to do some quick conversions perhaps) Where possible I've tried to be as true to the artwork in the books as I can at this scale (but in some cases who knows if that's
absolutely spot on ?)....
Cheers - Phil.
Quote from: Urbinoprince on 24 October 2011, 05:35:52 PM
To be most candid, I liked the figures, but not necessarily as Carthaginians, Vikings perhaps. Why? Archers? I realize that the carthaginians employed mauretanians as archers, but I think more of the balearics and other ethnics as the preferred skirmish types. They should be a great addition but I would like to see a more African cast to these figures. Also, I did not get the chill factor that I was facing the best of the best- the Libyan-Phoenician mediuym/heavy infantry. Was there anything uniquely Carthaginian about these figures? Also, some like two greaves and others one. Do people want to paint a whole phalanx of men holding their spear with one hand so high in the air? Then there is the issue as to how long the spears were? For this reason, I liked better the two spearmen holding the spear horizontal to the ground. :-\
I have to second this opinion. They don't look much like the Carthaginians one would expect from historical and archaeological sources, and my reaction was also that there was a dark ages feel to several.
Points taken on board FK !
I think my photography skills (HAH !) have let me down more than the models themselves....I think (hope) you'd like them more if you saw them 'in the flesh'.
Cheers - Phil.
Don't get me wrong. I like the models. I'd just be inclined to use 'em under a different flag (but for the fact that I play only pike-and-shot and SYW these days, after a youth trying to cover every conflict known to history).
On the issue of the archers, they were few and far between. But who can say if small bands were not recruited during the course of the war. Anyway they will make an excellent generic addition to the skirmish forces for many nations.
I must admit that the figure with the spear pointing aloft is not one that would grace my battle line. Perhaps a few for a generals bodyguard? But again the other two figures are spot on.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 25 October 2011, 02:59:17 AM
I have to second this opinion. They don't look much like the Carthaginians one would expect from historical and archaeological sources, and my reaction was also that there was a dark ages feel to several.
I am interested as to what you think they should look like. Being influenced by the Greeks a cuirasse seems fair either Bronze or linen same goes with pteryges. Regarding the helmet, a conical or perhpas one with a small crest seems to be most common? The greaveswell the Romans could only afford one for the leading leg, Carthaginians?? Lenght of spear, who really knows. Bertie.
Just to show I'm not just working on Projects 'X' & 'Y'....A wip piccy of something to aid the Carthaginians.....Some tweaks to do yet.....Ears, (too triangular) legs, (finish them off) put the rider on etc etc....But not too far from finishing.
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k611/technodestructorman/IMGP4068-1.jpg)
Cheers - Phil
That's a funky pachyderm Phil 8)
Dammit...It's meant to be an elephant ;D ;D ;D
Thanks Nik.
Cheers - Phil.
Quote from: Techno on 24 November 2011, 08:09:19 PM
Just to show I'm not just working on Projects 'X' & 'Y'....A wip piccy of something to aid the Carthaginians.....Some tweaks to do yet.....Ears, (too triangular) legs, (finish them off) put the rider on etc etc....But not too far from finishing.
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k611/technodestructorman/IMGP4068-1.jpg)
Cheers - Phil
Very nice - can you do some without blankets/howdahs and then I can buy them to chase with cavemen!
Yup, ears are very definitely wrong ;) Need to be at least four times bigger! (Sorry, it's the biologist in me :-B )
Hi Meirion.
Plan just at the moment is to finish this one off with just a rider and a chap on the back with a spear....Then do some conversions.....Including one with a howdah and crew...another with just a rider......And possibly one that's completely 'plain'.
Could ask that nice Mr Leon if maybe I can make one into a mammoth too ;).....But the tusks would be an absolute swine to get out of the mould at this scale, unless they're done as separate pieces.
Cheers - Phil.
Quote from: Techno on 24 November 2011, 10:57:11 PM
Hi Meirion.
Plan just at the moment is to finish this one off with just a rider and a chap on the back with a spear....Then do some conversions.....Including one with a howdah and crew...another with just a rider......And possibly one that's completely 'plain'.
Could ask that nice Mr Leon if maybe I can make one into a mammoth too ;).....But the tusks would be an absolute swine to get out of the mould at this scale, unless they're done as separate pieces.
Cheers - Phil.
Hi Phil,
Yeah, I can see the tusks could be a pain, although the existing mammoths come with separate ones.
I'd be happy with a naked elephant - plenty of non-hirsute proboscideans (no longer) out there. Inter-glacial megafauna hunting is almost as much fun as the wooly variety! :>
Cheers,
Meirion
Nice one!
Thanks Lemmy !
The finished article will be betterer (sic)......(Look... look...points mouse at desk like Basil Faulty with the phone when talking to Sybil.)
Cheers - Phil
Really like the elephant - it's meant to be an African forest elephant for Carthaginians so it doesn't matter that it looks different from African Bush elephants and Indian elephants, because it's meant to look different from them.
I don't think the figures look Dark Age at all - their style of dress and equipment is clearly ancient, though i agree with some of the posters that they could be made to look a bit more like a mixture of North Africans and Phoenicians (maybe e.g by putting their beards and hair in ringlets and giving some scale corselets - though hair in ringlets would be tricky work on 10mm)
Painting them with bright coloured fringes or patterns on their tunics and using transfers for their shields plus some designs painted on standards should make them look Carthaginian though.
The Numidian archer standing and firing is my favourite - very nice figure.
My only complaint is that the spears look a bit thick for the size of the figures - i think they'd look better if they were a bit thinner - though obviously if they're made too thin they'll bend, which is less than ideal.
Old Glory solve the problem by using very thin 10mm steel spears that are separate from the figure and glued into it's hand and that works pretty well, though obviously increases the price a bit.
Thanks for the feedback, much appreciated. We're hoping to get these all moulded up and sorted for a release in either Jan or Feb, along with the Repub Riomans.
Quote from: Dunnadd on 28 November 2011, 10:50:42 PM
My only complaint is that the spears look a bit thick for the size of the figures - i think they'd look better if they were a bit thinner - though obviously if they're made too thin they'll bend, which is less than ideal.
The spears have to be oversized on the master figures, as the moulding process thins them down. Too thin on the master, and it won't cast properly by the time it gets to the production mould. They'll look a lot more proportional by the time they're released.
8)
Quote from: Dunnadd on 28 November 2011, 10:50:42 PM
Really like the elephant - it's meant to be an African forest elephant for Carthaginians so it doesn't matter that it looks different from African Bush elephants and Indian elephants, because it's meant to look different from them.
Well, not really. Since they're regarded as being
Loxodonta africana pharaoensis, so a sub-species of the bush elephant
Loxodonta africana and given that the Congolese forest elephant
Loxodonta cyclotis doesn't differ that much in appearance from the bush elephant I think there's a definite blueprint there to work from.
Anyway, I'm sure Phil will do a great job and as long as it has bigger ears than the current version I'm sure the morphologically OCD biologists among us will be happy :-B ;)
Ooer !
Now I am getting a bit confused !
From the 'tomes' I've been consulting I was under the impression that the elephants used were the now extinct (?) 'forest' elephants and then more commonly the Indian Elephant.. The Indian elephant was the one that I was using as a basis for the model....
If I've got this bit right.....Hannibal rode the last surviving elephant "that may be identified as the Indian elephant Cato called Surus"
I'll post a piccy up later !.....It's almost finished now. ('Fraid the ears are only a tiny bit bigger tho' Meirion.)
Cheers - Phil
On elephants -
I'm not an expert on this but from googling according to the wiki entry for North African forest elephants it's not certain whether the North African Forest elephant was a sub-species of African bush elephant or a separate species.
It was thought until recently that other surviving varieties of African forest elephants in Africa were just sub-species of Bush elephantsbut recently they found out they're a separate species (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Forest_Elephant) - their scientific name is Loxodonta cyclotis (http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/life/African_Forest_Elephant) - though they do look pretty like a smaller version of a Bush elephant.
The differences are that (http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/life/African_Forest_Elephant) "Forest elephants have straighter tusks and more rounded ears than African savannah elephants. They have five toes on the forefeet and four toes on the hindfeet, as Asian elephants do."
The forest elephants apparently also vary far more genetically than Bush elephants, but another article says there's hybridisation between the two (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/1505573.stm), which would support them being just sub-species (i thought that if two animals could interbreed and have children that could have children themselves that made them the same species and not a different species?).
I think there's a theory that Hannibal might have been given some elephants by one of the successors, but whether it's true and what species they'd be if he was, i'm not sure.
There are also people who claim that African Bush/Savanna elephants could have been used by the Carthaginians as some have been domesticated/trained today - don't know if there's any ancient evidence from written sources or coins to back that up though.
------------------------------------------------------------------
On spears - ah right - thanks for the info Leon - glad to hear it
Her we are then.
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k611/technodestructorman/IMGP4091.jpg)
For ease of casting, I'm only going to give the chap on the back a spear/javelin......Nothing over long, or it would be a complete swine for Dave and Leon to cast and/or get out of the mould.
I haven't even tried for toes/toenails at this scale....They'd look too big however fine a skin of putty I put on.
Going back a tad....I think one of the reasons some of the infantry look a bit 'dark ages; is that I tried to give them a very fine putty beard, and those have come out a little bit on the hirsute side..A bit 'Vikingy' perhaps...Perhaps I should have left that off...A fine beard could always be portrayed with just paint perhaps ?
Believe it or not....I did try and give some pf them 'ringlets too....Be interesting to see how those come out in the metals.
I'm keeping right out of the elephant species discussion ;)
As I've said before....Hopefully at least a couple of conversions to do on this piece once it's finished off.
Spears ?....Think Leon's answered that....My own 'two - pees' worth is that I'd much prefer to use .5mm brass rod rather than the .75(ish)mm that's really necessary for models of this size....Looks much more aesthetically pleasing, as well as 'nearer the mark'.
In another life, I've even made separate 'add ons' using the finer rod.....Didn't really work sadly.....and a lot of people found them too fiddly to attach to the models.
Different strokes for different folks, I guess !
Cheers - Phil.
Looking good. Are the riders going to be separate?
No Fred...Sorry.
Too much of a pain to do them as separate pieces that fit really snugly....To a certain extent, that's why there'll be conversions.
Cheers - Phil
Techno wrote QuoteGoing back a tad....I think one of the reasons some of the infantry look a bit 'dark ages; is that I tried to give them a very fine putty beard, and those have come out a little bit on the hirsute side..A bit 'Vikingy' perhaps...Perhaps I should have left that off...A fine beard could always be portrayed with just paint perhaps ?
Maybe, but i think if you were a Liby-Phoenician spearmen stuck in Sicily or Italy or Spain for a decade fighting seemingly endless hordes of dirty feckin Romans you'd probably end up not trimming your beard as often, so hirsute might not always be inaccurate.
QuoteBelieve it or not....I did try and give some pf them 'ringlets too....Be interesting to see how those come out in the metals.
Nice - look forward to seeing the final figures.
Quote from: Dunnadd on 29 November 2011, 07:21:41 PM
Maybe, but i think if you were a Liby-Phoenician spearmen stuck in Sicily or Italy or Spain for a decade fighting seemingly endless hordes of dirty feckin Romans you'd probably end up not trimming your beard as often, so hirsute might not always be inaccurate.
Nice - look forward to seeing the final figures.
Hot damn !......I hadn't thought of that ! Curse those artists in the books that paint the warriors all neat and cleanly dressed....and looking as tho' they'd just been to the barbers !! ;) ;D......Might have to use that as an excuse in the future. :)
Cheers - Phil.
Quote from: Techno on 29 November 2011, 03:17:00 PM
Ooer !
Now I am getting a bit confused !
From the 'tomes' I've been consulting I was under the impression that the elephants used were the now extinct (?) 'forest' elephants and then more commonly the Indian Elephant.. The Indian elephant was the one that I was using as a basis for the model....
If I've got this bit right.....Hannibal rode the last surviving elephant "that may be identified as the Indian elephant Cato called Surus"
I'll post a piccy up later !.....It's almost finished now. ('Fraid the ears are only a tiny bit bigger tho' Meirion.)
Cheers - Phil
Boo, hiss! :-q
...although small ears would make the conversion to woolly mammoth easier :-\ ;)
Anyway, last word on elephants - especially since I'm not the target audience for the range - there's a nice coin image on the Hannibal wikipedia page:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Hannibal.gif)
...and a bust and fresco on the North African Elephant page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_African_Elephant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_African_Elephant)
Obviously all this evidence is highly weighted to support my own large eared bias :P :D
Look...
Will one of you clever b*ggers hurry up and invent a time machine, so I can go and take some definitive piccies.
We could then find out whether
a) The ancient historians were either wrong or simply guessing.
b) The 'artiste' who did the obverse of the coin had never seen an Indian 'hefferlump' and used a 'big eared' one as inspiration.
c) The 'artiste' was worse than me at sculpting (actually I think that's rather impressive on the coin)....and didn't do ears properly. (I doubt this mad theory...but I thought I'd put it in)
c) The Carthaginian mint were too stingy to make a new stamp to go on the back of the coin, and re-used an old stamp.
'Nellie' can be classed as either an Indian elephant who has ears that are a tad too big....or 'the other type' whose ears are a little on the small side......
How's that for a cop out ! ;D ;D ;D ;D
Cheers - Phil ;)
Techno wrote
QuoteWill one of you clever b*ggers hurry up and invent a time machine, so I can go and take some definitive piccies.
We could then find out whether
a) The ancient historians were either wrong or simply guessing.
b) The 'artiste' who did the obverse of the coin had never seen an Indian 'hefferlump' and used a 'big eared' one as inspiration.
c) The 'artiste' was worse than me at sculpting (actually I think that's rather impressive on the coin)....and didn't do ears properly. (I doubt this mad theory...but I thought I'd put it in)
c) The Carthaginian mint were too stingy to make a new stamp to go on the back of the coin, and re-used an old stamp.
;D
Fair point Phil. Historians often disagree on whether ancient sources are reliable on this point or that (especially as some were writing decades - or even sometimes centuries - after the events they were describing ; and were in the pay of certain families who wanted their ancestors to look good)
Having said that some sources that were thought to be just poetic or myth rather than fact have been shown by archaeology to be accurate - e.g Homer's description of the armour and weapons used by ancient Greeks and Trojans in the Iliad; the city of Troy itself
Exactly what I was trying to put across Dunnadd ;)
I hope humourously.... I wasn't having an artistic hissy fit...I promise !....That's not me at all !
For many of the ancient 'ranges'....I don't believe we'll ever know the absolutely true and definitive answer.
If I may paraphrase...."History is written by the winners"
Some of the photos I've looked at of statues/statuettes from 'ancient' times are basically 'poop'....And even the experts can't agree what they actually portray....I reckon I could do better sculpting with my feet.
Others......Oh...I'm so in awe of the skill of the sculptors.....THE SWINE ! ;D ;D ;D
Cheers - Phil.
Quote from: Dunnadd on 30 November 2011, 05:10:08 PM
in the pay of certain families who wanted their ancestors to look good
Yeah, if I were an ancient hefferlump (or slon or whathaveyou) I wouldn't like it if someone said my greatgreatgranddad had big ears! :D
Quote from: OldenBUA on 30 November 2011, 06:42:56 PM
Yeah, if I were an ancient hefferlump (or slon or whathaveyou) I wouldn't like it if someone said my greatgreatgranddad had big ears! :D
Too right, we all know Noddy had him
Quote from: Dunnadd on 30 November 2011, 05:10:08 PM
Techno wrote
;D
Having said that. some sources that were thought to be just poetic or myth rather than fact have been shown by archaeology to be accurate - e.g Homer's description of the armour and weapons used by ancient Greeks and Trojans in the Iliad; the city of Troy itself
Homer's description of the weapons of the period is agreed to be way off target. He only once mentions the pike which was the standard weapon on the heavy infantry (he has an Aias use in it defence of the Danaan ships), only once refers to using a lance from a chariot (Nestor advising the warriors), and time after tedious time has combat settled with javelins, which contemporary accounts make plain were a skirmisher's weapon. Peter Greenhalgh goes into the subject in great depth, also looking at why Homer has such bizarre notions of what you can do in a chariot.
Really? I'm surprised by that - i got the impression from Peter Connolly's books that most people thought Troy didn't exist and that the bronze body armour he talked about hadn't existed, but Troy was found by an excavation in Turkey in the 19th century, along with body armour of the type Homer described.
Points you might want to remember about Homer:
1) It was a very very very long time ago! We are reading translations of translations of copies of copies...
2) It was oral story telling, so wasn't written down until years after the first elling.
3) Homer was playing to the crowd.
4) and most importantly, Homer was BLIND! Hence some of his descriptions such as bronze skies!
OI !! Meirion !!
Change your icon back to your icicle thingy......Or you'll get such a smack !! ;D ;D ;D
I dunno....Some people !
Cheers - A grinning Phil. :)
Quote from: Techno on 01 December 2011, 04:44:04 PM
OI !! Meirion !!
Change your icon back to your icicle thingy......Or you'll get such a smack !! ;D ;D ;D
I dunno....Some people !
Cheers - A grinning Phil. :)
:P 8)
Is that more to sir's liking?
;D
#-o
Cheers - Phil.
Right then Chaps.
Just about to start the Carthaginian cavalry....
As seems normal with reference books they seem to disagree with each other....
One expert says they wore lamellar horse armour.....Another says there is absolutely no evidence for the Carthaginians using this and it's wrong.......Another point is that the Carthaginians used some Hellenistic equipment, so therefore probably used Hellenistic horse armour.......But this is a completely unfounded idea according to some.
Think I'm just going to do the horses unarmoured for the time being......At least it'll easier to put some form of armour on later.....
Or has there been any definitive archaeology done recently, which gives us the answer for sure ?
Cheers - Phil.
Found this so far
modern copy of an original coin:
4th centruy BC though
http://portal.unesco.org/en/ev.php-URL_ID=26417&URL_DO=DO_TOPIC&URL_SECTION=201.html
Cheers 'M'
No armour on that one....Though it is a little late time wise ??
Like I said before....I think I'm safer leaving the horses plain..at least for the time being.
Thanks for taking the trouble to find that one for me.
Phil.
I'd avoid it, it seems a supposition too far in the absence of direct evidence, and it didn't get that widespread usage in the greek world anyway. Another reason for caution is that it comes from Peter Conolly of Carthaginian Pike fame.
Not that I distrust him generally, but I think he got these two things wrong.
Thanks Clibby.
That ties in with what I've read.
Cheers - Phil.
Here's the latest batch of masters from Techno, which pretty much takes this range to completion! We'll be adding some other elephant types further down the line, but for now, that's all folks! Techno is going to be moving over to a completely different area for the next few months, so keep an eye out for that... ;)
Carthage cavalry:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7035/6556629765_a5aa534640.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pendraken/6556629765/)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7025/6556632207_85920e063c.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pendraken/6556632207/)
And the hefferlump:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7144/6556633329_29a9621111.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pendraken/6556633329/)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7165/6556634441_cdc562436b.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pendraken/6556634441/)
And we've also remodelled the spearmen from earlier, bringing the spear down to the ground:
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7173/6556634935_6ef0e2b7d0.jpg) (http://www.flickr.com/photos/pendraken/6556634935/)
These will hopefully be all moulded and ready early in 2012, along with the Republican Romans, so that we can do a full release of both ranges.
8)
This range is shaping up nicely. Think both ranges would be ready by mid April?
If so, I would be able to run one of my wargaming classes using them both for a Punic Wars Class :D
Quote from: Blaker on 23 December 2011, 01:53:10 AM
This range is shaping up nicely. Think both ranges would be ready by mid April?
I'd think so yes, me and Dave are sitting down over Xmas to pencil in the next 6 months worth of releases, and these are pretty high on the list.
How much longer before the Numidian Cavalry are released? :'(
Techno's just working on them now, and then we'll be moulding them as soon as they arrive here. A few weeks? We're currently shipping in about 14 days, so it wouldn't be that much of a wait before they were sent out.
Nearly finished them.
Barring a total disaster the Numidians should be with Leon towards the middle of next week at the absolute latest.
Just trying to finish off some other 'bits and bobs' to send at the same time.
Cheers - Phil.