Hi all,
I have had a number of games using the Napoleon at War rule set and felt I should bring it to people's attention. Its beginning to be known as Flames of War for Napoleonics and a visit to their website www.manatwar.es will show you why as they are producing their own figures in 15/18mm and the rules set is designed to be played in approx 3 hours and has 6 objective based scenarios. It's points based and you can select and modify various brigades from their lists. Various campaign books are scheduled for release.
But don't let the FoW tag put you off. I've played a great many rule sets and I have to say these are one of the best i've come across for the period. They are relatively simple yet cover most aspects of the period. Naturally the company are pushing their own figures but it can easily be played in other scales especially 10mm.
Check it out.
Cheers,
Andy
Cheers Andy
my first impression was FOW??? Yuck :d
...but having looked at the website and the freely available downloads I can see myself investing in the rules. I wouldn't touch the miniatures as I already have shitloads of 15's which I have been hanging onto 'just in case' a decent set of rules comes along.
They remind me a litle bit of Lasalle - Organic, Support etc which I quite like as it restricts armies to their usual set ups meaning Guards rarely, if ever feature except in really big games.
This one will be on my November budget or possibly my Christmas wish list - thanks for posting ;)
Hi Andy,
What size bases do they use in these rules?
Loooking at the web site they have 4 figures to a base, i was thinking you could get 6 of 10mm to a base but not having a copy of the rules am not sure if this is ok.
Cheers,
Steve.
Infantry base is 1x1.25" and 1" is the front edge looks pretty horrible IMHO and that's in 15mm probably worse with 10mm.
I think six 10mm figures on their bases of 2.5cm x 3 cm would look good, certainly what I'm thinking of doing.
Cheers,
Andy
In terms of frontage it's ok but the depth is far too great IMHO.
Putting a 3rd rank in would probably be better.
Thanks for the info on bases.
I have not been into napoleonics since, waite for it - the late 70s, but i have to say with the new 1809 range i am tempted providing i can find a decent set of rules.
I received a copy of these over the weekend but haven't really had a great deal of opportunity to work through them other than a casual flick through.
My first impression is that my initial first impression (having looked at the link provided when this topic was first posted) was right and that it is very much like Lasalle. The rules are translated from Spanish (I think) and this does make some of the explanations quite clumsy when first read. A few moments consideration seems to make the wording make sense but time will tell when I'm in the middle of a game and looking for an answer.
There are lots of diagrams showing play situations which looks helpful.
Oddly army lists (other than the obligatory French and English) appear in the book and then the National Characteristics information is scattered throughout the rulebook which isn't helpful. HOWEVER the website has loads of free downloads covering France, Britain, Russia, Prussia and the forum seems to be healthy enough in terms of discussions about other major players.
I cant seem to find anything on the actual base sizes, but all infantry units are based on 6 stands, four figures to a stand - cavalry 4 stands, three figures per base, and artillery one gun per base. I guess they must be 1 1/2" wide for infantry as the intention is that they create a 'fire box' / beaten zone 6" wide by 6" deep for infantry. I guess theres probably no need to rebase drastically as long as both sides have the same frontage, however casualty removal is by the base so this might prove difficult for those with differently based armies.
All in all I quite like what I see and am looking forward to bunging some dice at them - if anything it might justify dragging out all those 15's I have under the bed that have been gathering dust for far too long!
Quote from: Nosher on 31 October 2011, 09:27:17 AM
I cant seem to find anything on the actual base sizes, but all infantry units are based on 6 stands, four figures to a stand - cavalry 4 stands, three figures per base, and artillery one gun per base. I guess they must be 1 1/2" wide for infantry as the intention is that they create a 'fire box' / beaten zone 6" wide by 6" deep for infantry. I guess theres probably no need to rebase drastically as long as both sides have the same frontage, however casualty removal is by the base so this might prove difficult for those with differently based armies.
Base size seem to be a source of confusion look at this thread on their forum...
http://www.manatwar.es/?page_id=4/general/base-size/
...which is why I only posted the infantry base size before as I still can't work out the others ???
Quote from: NTM on 31 October 2011, 09:38:11 AM
Base size seem to be a source of confusion look at this thread on their forum...
http://www.manatwar.es/?page_id=4/general/base-size/
...which is why I only posted the infantry base size before as I still can't work out the others ???
F*** me that is *quite* confusing and they also dont seem too worried which is even weirder. :(
Still, I dont intend to rebase my collection and looking at the base sizes mine are based not too disimilarly so I'm hoping its all relevant and not a game breaker. I wont be gaming against an opponent that often and even if I am they'll be using my miniatures 9/10 so I'm not overly worried. (he says nipping upstairs to measure his bases!) ;)
OK so I playtested a 1500point game yesterday evening and I have to say it all worked rather well. What was really interesting was that the suggestion is that 6 move game/scenario should be playable in a couple of hours. My game took three hours and that was playing with alcohol freely flowing and a string of page flicking to find rules I was uncertain about.
I do like the rules I have to say - that said the rule book is very awkward to follow with bits and pieces scattered all over the book and a fast paly sheet that has some pretty critical stuff missing. There are various references/acronyms relevant to game mechanics that change from page to page which is frustrating. My best guess is that something got lost in the translation from Spanish to English.
There are special rules with French Phrases and some rather odd formation names such as Ordre Mince and Ordre Profond which I struggled to get my head around why they didn't stick with Line and Echelon/Squadron which are far more familiar terms.
All of this said I found the game very enjoyable. Troop types acted according to manner and the pace of the game was fluid. I think it will work well with multiple players on really big tables with a minimum amount of fuss.
Its touted as a competition set of rules - this is where I think it wil stumble (like Lasalle) The rules are way too ambiguous for competition play and there are some major loopholes that will be exploited by 'fromage' rules-lawyers
Its convinced me to have another game which is no bad thing but I very much doubt I will be rebasing the collection or starting again in 10mm - not until I see what FoG Napoleonics turns out like.
Ordre Mince - I remember a Monty Python sketch of camp soldiers doing drill. ;D
Hi
Re Order Mince & Order Profond
From my C18th French mil dissertation from about 30 years ago, the Order Mince and Ordre Profond where the two schools of thought for inf ops - Order Mince: thin lines emphasising firepower and an elongated battle line - all very much in the tradition of Frederick. Order profond was one more of depth or for marshal de Saxe a sequence of lines delivered at the point of attack such as at Crefeld or Laufeldt in the 1740's and a more echeloned operational plan. Some theorists advocated deep columns without spacing to gain further impetus but I was not tried in practice. They were both discussed in Guibert general essay on tactics and were said to be instrumental in the French inf regulations being proposed at the end of the ancien regime. Use of them in a Napoleonic set of rules is a bit overly clever as I doubt they were terms used in the period. From the 1790's manuals tempered by the experience of ill trained levies in the Revolutionary period a mix of line, column and mass skirmishers were used according to circumstance. By the Imperial period with the old lags, highly trained infantry regiments, the training in the camp of Boulogne it was column to manoeuvre and the line or succession of lines to attack key points, usually villages. It was only as the quality fell off that deep columns were used regularly by the French and a greater emphasis placed upon artillery to prepare the assault. I hope the rules emphasise what was feasable formations at certain points in the war or for certain commanders - Davout & Soult being noted manoeuvrers while Oudinot and many others noted "Chargers"
Cheers Bernie - what makes it even odder is that Mince and Profond formations are cavalry formations in NAW - hence my mention of line and echelon/sqn
Hi Nosher
In that case they are anacronistic as the whole Mince/Profond debate was on the problems of infantry
Re Cav - as we are all probably aware - the debate was over :
1. receiving the charge at standstill - maximises order, allows some pistol shots to be fired, possible deters enemy. Cavalry without impetus was often disastrous and asking to be overwhelmed. French Dragoons still had a habit of doing this
2. Advance to contact either at trot or canter - gallop loses control and needs perfect timing. Best as a succession of lines with last reserve usually the winner
3. French trial the column - i.e. a succession of the 4 squadrons in the regt when delivering a divisional or cav corps attack - emphasis on narrow frontage to overwhelm cavalry or infantry opposition - best delivered after a good sofening up of the opponent with horse artillery
I've been fiddling with basing for 10mm for these rules. I think as NTM stated the frontages are fine but the depth needs to be trimmed down a bit. Infantry look very good at 3figsx2 on base 25mm frontage and 20-25mm depth.
Cheers,
Andy