The new edition of IABSM has used this month's figure budget.
:D
Is it just me watching my purse strings too closely, or are rules becoming ridiculously expensive. Even buying these as a pdf download they are forty quid as they insist on sending the hardback copy too - which seems to make the idea of downloading the pdf slightly pointless
£40?!?!
For the wooly 'back of a fag packet' rubbish TFL chuck out?!?! Good grief.
But yes, in general rulesets are going up in price - especially for those rules tied to figures ranges, which seems counter-intuitive to me (i'd have thought those rules would be 'loss leaders')...
Personally i also find many of the newer glossy rulebooks are stuffed to the gunwhales with 'fluff'. Typically if you strip out all the unneccessary bits and bobs, the actual rules in a rulebook are about 10% of the page space. And often with some decent redrafting (i.e. proper writing) that could be cut in half again.
And another thing...most rulebooks aren't bound for use. A5 format, spiral bound hardback is the best format for use at the table - most rules are nothing like this and are a real pain to use/refer to at the table...
>:(
Black Powder is very expensive considering most of it is fluff IMHO. I think the best value rules are BKC/CWC/FWC at £20 each. All I ever really have on the table is the quick reference sheet and an army list. Simples :).
Since the 'Commander' series also includes all the army lists you need too, i'd agree they are great value for money.
Personally I can't stand xxC - feels like Warmaster - not WM Modern, but WM.
BP I got for £20, and I'm very happy with it.
Defence of TFL.
1st - £40 is the pre-release bundle - hardcopy and PDF plus pack of 104 cards (£12 seperately, which seems comparable to most CCG, or other card game- Fluxx, Chrononauts, Munchkin etc- on a price per card basis) and a set of plastic markers. Straight pdf will be about £8-9 I think.
1st ed IABSM is a thin I know. This is 3rd ed. I think its going to be a lot like Charlie Don't Surf in quality. CDS is 100 pages with everthing you need, force lists stats etc, and no fluff. PDF is £9, Hardcopy £15.
TW&T is the finest wargame I know. I admit there are times when I was going to play TW&T and we play something different - this is because we were too knackered: not to understand the rules, but it is a game that you really have to think about and use correct tactics on. Of all the WW2 rules I've played its the one I've felt closest to the history. TFL games work especially well if you have a umpire who knows the period, rather than just the rules, because he can make judgement calls.
Breaking for "spooks" - will return to "prices" later
I do wonder what modern wargamers expect rules to be priced at*. £20 is considered to be expensive. Really? If you go out for a few beers with mates how much do you spend? £20 buys 5-6 pints - a round. A haircut (see caveat) is a tenner - what lasts longer a set of rules or 3 haircuts (on normal people)? How many books and DVDs do you have you read or watched once? A cinema ticket is nudging £8.
We think nothing of putting hundreds of quids worth of lead on the table, yet £20 is considered a kings ransom. How many people have a shelf full of Ospreys - £13 each. How often do you use them? No really - do you each one half the amount you use the rules for the armies they were bought for.
Unfortunately I don't have prices on most of my rules. I do know that Challenger 2 was something like £4 in 1990 - thats about £7 today according to the internet. Do we really want that cramped A5 style? Yes, we all have PCs but layout still uses time. Mr Lincolns war - £10 in 2000. So thin that it is staple bound. Equivalent cost £13.50 today. £3-5 isn't that much of a jump to something readable.
The other problem is colour. Save your huffs - colour is anything not black and white, not just pretty pictures. Want to have your diagrams so you can differentiate the opponents? Triple the print cost.
I happen to know Richard Clarke a little. He is not some bloated evil empire rich publisher. TFL is his full time job - he does not have time for a 'proper' job. Publishing Kreigspeil almost bankrupted him (even after the length it has been available, he still thinks he is down on the whole deal!) On the Yahoo group he said the most popular rules he has sold has run to something like 4000 sales over its entire lifetime, he's not JK Rowling.
So. Exactly how much should a rule set cost?
*Caveat - I realise this is wargamers I am addressing, some of whom appear to regard haircuts as some sort of foppish extreme.
Quote from: wargamesbob on 09 October 2011, 11:58:46 AM
Is it just me watching my purse strings too closely, or are rules becoming ridiculously expensive. Even buying these as a pdf download they are forty quid as they insist on sending the hardback copy too - which seems to make the idea of downloading the pdf slightly pointless
PDF 'bundle' is £30
Hard copy rules can be purchased without the tokens and cards for £20
PDF rules can be by themself for £12
All this information was gathered by looking on their site for a minute or two.
Please get your facts straight before going in to a rant or this place will become like TMP ;)
I stand corrected and apologize to all, especially Peter Clarke if I have offended him or his products. The front page advertising on his web page directed me to the "bundles" option. On navigating using the products/I ain't been shot mum options I have indeed found the less expensive options which you have listed and will happily spend £12 for the basic pdf format copy.
It is not my intention to to create a rant thread, but my general comment concerning the high pricing of rules does still remain the basically the same...they are getting dear. I am well aware of the dramatic price increases for colour rather than monotone printing and also the advantages to the reader of having colour illustrations and whilst it would be nice to have the best of both worlds (cheap colour), ultimately we have to settle with one.
You comments about Osprey and the such are well founded, but I must admit that when I buy an Osprey or similar publication I generally know in advance that I am going to use it, whereas with a new rules set it tends to be more of a "I wonder if is better than what I am using now".
Anyway thanks for pointing me towards a more affordable copy of this rules set and I'll check my information more carefully in future before I set fingers to keyboard.
Sorry that came off a bit ranty!
Personally I've given up on a lot of the soldier based Ospreys, though i did buy the big napoleonic one, as it was a collection of a load for £17. Most of them are pointless though- detail you don't need.
I'd prefer A4 to A5- coil bound is attractive but I think again it adds cost, and some times acts as perforations.
Personally I was impressed by Black Powder and Hail Ceasar but when I tried to read them found all the fluff and background got in the way of the rules. HC is the best as it has a good rule summary at the back which is very usefull.
What I miss though is a fast play sheet, after a couple of goes you should be able to play a game just using a playsheet with the odd reference to the rules about a particular point but neither HC or BP has a play sheet and more anoyingly neither has an index >:( in these days its as easy to create an index as it is to create a table of contents.
Look on the Warlords site - sheets for both.
IanS
Low ink (No yellow background) BP QRS
http://lasthussar.wordpress.com/2010/02/19/printer-freindly-black-powder-qr-sheets/ (http://lasthussar.wordpress.com/2010/02/19/printer-freindly-black-powder-qr-sheets/)
I am twitching in anticipation- the odds are out, and I'm hoping Postman Pat will have the package with me by the weekend. The PDF looks good but I am reading on my phone as I am away on business.
Quote from: wargamesbob on 09 October 2011, 11:58:46 AM
Is it just me watching my purse strings too closely, or are rules becoming ridiculously expensive. Even buying these as a pdf download they are forty quid as they insist on sending the hardback copy too - which seems to make the idea of downloading the pdf slightly pointless
The pdf version will be available on its own for £12.
As somebody pointed out ages ago. That will teach me to read the whole thread before commenting.
What an interesting thread!
Well, the TFL stable is very popular at my club and IABSM is regularly on at least one of the tables (almost every week it seems).
We tried them a good while ago in the (as yet) unfulfilled search for a decent 'platoon level' WWII ruleset....and, well, 'meh' summed it up.
Personally i hate the whole 'blinds' thing. Like my toys on the table old boy.
However, one of my regular group has been persuaded to purchase the new & improved version and is currently absorbing its essence (in between rehearsals for his new band)...we'll be giving it a go (me with 'Eyebrow of Incredulity +5' firmly raised), so i'll let you know how we get on.
But as i said, rulesets are jolly expensive. That said, i've splashed out about £100 on various rules this month and yet ended up playing a home-written set... :'( I must be mad... :O)
Steve, I am not convinced that £20 for a set of full colour rules is expensive. Gamers seem very happy to spend hundreds of pounds on figures, but when you ask them what game they are playing they answer "IABSM" or "Sharp Practice" (or FOW, or BKC or Rapid Fire). In truth the rules that they are using are actually the cheapest part of the game. The figures cost more, the terrain costs more, in some cases even the dice cost more. Yet what is it that makes the game? Surely the rules?
Of course which rules you like is a matter of personal preference, I tend to find that people like the rules that reflect their own interpretation of warfare, so there will never be a "one size fits all" solution as we all interpret historical events in a different way. I think that is a positive thing about the hobby, indeed I feel it displays a maturity that speaks well of wargaming generally.
I can fully appreciate why you like to get your toys on the table ASAP, you have undoubtedly invested much time in getting them painted and based, so you want to see them in action. From my perspective as a rule designer that doesn't really square with the concept of an "empty battlefield", so I am inclined to accept that troops remain hidden in a WWII game until they get into action, hence the Blinds. That said, I do recognise that this is a matter of personal preference and I am not about to try to convince you that I am right and you are wrong. In truth neither of us is right or wrong, we merely have different preferences.
That said, "wooly 'back of a fag packet' rubbish" is a pretty harsh comment, especially when you have freely admitted that Lardy rules are played every week at Durham. I suspect that is not a universally held view, would you concur?
My own view on rules is that we are all paying far more than we need to pay. Rules now seem to need to contain lots of pretty picture, lots of additional fluffy nonsense that actually achieves little (or indeed nothing) and we could actually return to black and white rules that sell for ten quicd (actually £12, I have the pecise costings) for about 64 pages. However were I to produce such a product it would not get ANY reviews in the hobby press and it would therefore be starved of the oxygen of publicity that any commercial product needs to be successful. I have long championed this position, but frankly I failed miserably. So now we have produced a really high quality full colour set of rules (not a fag packet in sight, and most certainly not rubbish - please note Leon's report from Crisis whic tells you where the punters were packed around the table) and amazingly we are getting the reviews and the rules are selling like hot cakes. So, don't blame the rule publishers for the prices, our production values are entirely customer lead.
Anyway, you feel free to have your eyebrow set at +5. However, you may find that you enjoy the game more if you approach it with an open mind. 'tis your choice. Either way, I hope you enjoy it.
Cheers
Rich
I actually prefer the presentation of IABSM v3. It is well laid out, the paper is good quality, and very readable. Read Challenger II form the 80's. Hopeless.May be cheap, but not good quality.
What I do like is there is fluff, but only to fill gaps. Sure they could have started the next section, but this makes the layout much easier.
Go down the pubv with 6 mates. Buy a round. How much?
QuoteSteve, I am not convinced that £20 for a set of full colour rules is expensive. Gamers seem very happy to spend hundreds of pounds on figures, but when you ask them what game they are playing they answer "IABSM" or "Sharp Practice" (or FOW, or BKC or Rapid Fire). In truth the rules that they are using are actually the cheapest part of the game. The figures cost more, the terrain costs more, in some cases even the dice cost more. Yet what is it that makes the game? Surely the rules?
I think £20 for a ruleset is good value for money, especially given the seemingly relentless way rules appear to be going down the GW route of a ruleset followed by inumerable supplements. This is especially true of FoW and by the look of it, Black Powder and Force-on-Force. But then these companies are businesses first and foremost, so I suppose this is how they can keep interest in their products and thus stay in business.
My personal favourite rules are the xxCommander series by Pete Jones; I get everything I need in one book for £20, there is no fluff and the core rules cover about 10 pages, the rest being examples of play and army lists. But then Pete has a full-time job so doesn't rely upon the series as his sole income. The rules are also backed up by a great Forum, with additional free downloads, FAQs etc. For me it just ticks all the boxes.
On the subject on the rules being the cheapest part of the game, a lot naturally depends upon the scale used and the size of games played. With FoW, the rules and supplements for one period, say NWE, would cost way more than a battlegroup if I was using Pendraken or H&R. I reckon I could still do it in 15mm with a bit of tweaking where the rules were 50%, the battlegroup 50% in terms of cost. When I bought RoE about 5 years ago, the rules and templates cost slightly less than than a re-inforced platoon with support in 28mm. Now if I did BP in 28mm, then the rules are by far and away the cheapest part of the game.
So, that's my two penneth for what it's worth :).
I have had a look at the Lardies website as a result of this discussion, and I must admit the rulesets do look good. If I ever get the chance to watch a game in action, I will. No one down this neck of the woods plays any of the games I'm afraid.
TTFN.
Steve J. (Not sure if I'm the Steve at the start of your last post Rich?)
I played the new edition of IABSM on Tuesday with Last Hussar, and I have to say I was very impressed. We played Scenario One "North of Caen"had an really enjoyable game (well I enjoyed it with my Germans).
My prefered WW2 rules are BKC in 10mm, although I do occasionally dabble with TW&T in 20mm. While i won't be chucking BKC out I can see myself playing IABSM quite a lot in the future. Next Friday we will be trying another scenario out with some tanks.