My son wants to start with Napoleonic Russians for 1812/Moscow campaign, and the continual reorganisations are somewhat confusing. (I thought the Luftwaffe fighter markings '36-40 were bad enough). I wish the books I had laid the info out as well as you.
He is intending to do 36 man units (in 10mm). Our reading seems to indicate by '12 the grenadiers were converged in their own brigades. Is this right?
Did line battalions have jagers, and were they on the left flank? Did they use the caribinier pom-poms in the infantry Battalions?
I'm thinking of the 36 men (in two lines of 18, in 6 bases of 6) the left most 4 jager, right most 4 Grenadiers. I Take it 2 flags per battalion (I hope so, as they will look lopsided with 1!)
Once I can work out what is in a 'standard' line battalion I am going to creep to Leon and ask that he makes up a one pose bn, with command (from memory the 30 man pack is all one pose anyway - just need the 6 command added). This will see if he is ok painting it, rather than his usual 40k.
This of course means I have to bring forward my French purchases, rather than the ECW and ACW completion I need to do, and Viet Nam stuff.
Russian Musketeer bttlns had 4 companies one of which was a grenadier company which consisted of 1 platoon of grenadiers and one of jager. Only the grenadier platoon wore the plume IIRC. No idea where they stood when in line though. Jager bttlns had the same composition just with different names. There were also Grenadier Regiments and in 1812+ you got converged Grenadier Regiments. The latter were formed from the grenadier companies of the depot (2nd) bttlns. From memory each bttln consisted of 3 companies (2 from Musketeer regts 1 from Jager) so each Division provided 2 converged Grenadier bttlns.
According to Nafziger after 1810 each regiment, line or grenadier, was to have three battalions, each of four companies. The first company of a battalions was devided into two platoons, one of grenadiers and the other of tirailleurs (skirmishers). In the grenadier regiments the remaining companies were known as "fusiliers" and in the line regiments as "musketeers". In the jager regiments the grenadiers were known as "carabiniers", whilst the remaining companies were designated as "jagers".
As far as I can tell each battalion carried a "white" colour and a "coloured" colour. If you look at the orders of battle for the 1814 campaign the field regiments seem to have two, and in some cases only one battalion. Again, the Nafziger OOBs are useful in this respect.
Hope this helps.
Ray
Thanks. Haythornthwaite says the same - trouble is telling what is copying and what is same source.
I might advise him to do all 36 the same - the info on the jagers is a bit vague. I'm trying to get an idea for a 10mm 36 man Black Powder bn, so I'm not looking at companies. I get the impression from reading that the bns didn't send out their own skirmishers, which in BP is sending the 8-12 men off the flanks to form a screen.
I've found standards, but the only white flags were for the pre 1808 inspections. The 'Kings Colour' equivalent - did that leave the diagonal cross, and have the top bottom and side segments with a white field?
The problem is Jack has both Aspergers and quite bad dyslexia. The aspergers can cope with 1bn-Red shoulder straps, 3bn Green- definate difference- but he can't read the stuff online very well, and the ASD means he doesn't cope with 'maybe' and 'sometimes' very well - he need straight x, y, z.
There's some flag info here: http://www.rofur-flags.de/liste4/russnap-engl.htm (http://www.rofur-flags.de/liste4/russnap-engl.htm).
Someone did a pretty good visual table of the various pom pom colours and posted it on TMP recently will post the link later on (currently forum maintenance time)
think the Grenadiers were formed into combined btn.
IanS
Ian,
As I stated previously the only 'combined' Grenadier bttlns were formed from the 2nd/Depot Bttlns. The grenadiers of the field (1st/3rd) bttlns remained with their units. These converged Grenadier bttlns were distinct from the Grenadier Regiments too (cannot recall if these had depot bttlns whose elite company was put into a converged bttln though)
Chart as referred to in my previous post;
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-5wNz2f7lPkw/TktC5qY9NbI/AAAAAAAAAqg/CLgpA9k0qzk/s1600/Russian+Pom+Poms.JPG
http://blundersonthedanube.blogspot.com/2011/08/russian-infantry-pom-poms-and-shoulder.html
Thanks for all the replies. Part of the problem is the Haythornethwaite text is dense, and the Russians seem to have started using modern Management techniques 200 years early: reorganisation rather than identifying the real issues and 'bungee management'. They also have the idea of applying their competitors ideas with out really understanding them ("We're going to have Tirailleur!") Talking of which did Tirailleur have the same uniforms as centre companies (not Jager, Tirailleur).
I'm actually posting on the pom pom thread as well.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 28 August 2011, 10:25:47 PM
Talking of which did Tirailleur have the same uniforms as centre companies (not Jager, Tirailleur).
Pom pom was the only difference IIRC
Just ordered for him, and extracted the money at time of payment (no mean feat!) Started with one bag each of line, grenadier and command. When he has the money he will add another 3 bags of line - giving enough for 5 x 36 man battalions. Once they are finished I'll ask Leon to sod about and order 18 grenadiers, 18 command and 72 line for the other 3 battalions in the 2nd brigade, plus Generals and a couple of bits of artillery. That's the core of an army for under 30 quid - or about 12 space marines (10 bog standard marines £23! - that is one unit).
Can then add the 4 jager battalions to complete the Division, then a few regiments of cavalry from the Cavalry Corps who are supporting. Long term add the Grenadier Divisoin and that is the whole of the 8th corps at Borodino! Ok so that about £130, but the thing about the One True Mass Scale is that for a Darwin Beer Token he can get a reasonable contribution to an army. As the entire Cavalry Corps comes in at under £20 (12 man regiments) I might get him that for Christmas!
It's the way we all started - one unit at a time. :)
There's a good selection of Russian flags and notes on their distribution at http://www.warflag.com/napflags/flaghtml/russindx.htm (http://www.warflag.com/napflags/flaghtml/russindx.htm) and if you have a bitmap editor in your graphic software they're pretty easy to edit if you need to do any.
The best illustrations of Russian colours I know of are in Borodino - the Moskova by F-G Hourtoulle published by Histoire & Collections. All the illustrations are in full colour. The text is hard work, however, being translated (badly) from the French. =)
Napflag and Warflag are old friends: the trouble I am having is identifing what flags to use after the Inspections were abolished. First Bn carried the 'White on White' "Tzar's standard", yes? It seems from Warflag bns carried what ever, but new standards were the 1797 pattern.
The problem is that even after 1812 the "old" regiments, i.e. those that were formed before 1797, continued to carry the 1797 pattern colonel's flag, certainly until 1815. Hourtoulle reckons that in that year there were still over 60 regiments carrying the old colour.
He also thinks that accuracy is unattainable because of a) successive reforms, b) the creation of new regiments and c) the tradition that kept the old flags current for the original regiments.
Some years ago I put together an extensive 6mm (I know better now) Russian army using the oobs of Wittgenstein's corps in the Army of Bohemia at Leipzig in 1813 (Osprey "Leipzig" by Peter Hofschroer - page 33) with additional Guard, Grenadier, Cuirassier, Hussar, Lancer and Cossack divisions to add a little meat and variation, also from the Leipzig oobs. All in all some 64 infantry battalions,78 squadrons cavalry and a shed load of artillery. Anyways, I did quite a lot of research into who was carrying what flags using the information on the Warflags site as a starter and then amending this based on the information in the Osprey book "Flags of the Napoleonic Wars (2)" by Terence Wise. I still have all of the flags for the following regiments on file.
Infantry regiments
Perm 1800 issue; Kaluga 1806 issue; Sievsk, Moligew; Tenguisk; Tulsk 1807 issue - Siberia inspection; Mowoginsk 1806 - Moscow inspection; Estonian 1806 - Ukraine inspection; Mourom; Revel; Tchernigov; Selenquinsk; Tobolsk; Volhynia 1807 - Lithuanian inspection; Minsk 1807 - Siberia inspection; Krementschulk 1807 Siberia inspection
Grenadier regiments
Moscow, Siberia, Kiev, Astrakhan, Fangoria, Little Russia
I'm not sure where I filed my Russian guard or cavalry flags. They're on my hard drive somewhere! If you let me know what regiments you are painting I can rescale my flags and email them to you as a pdf file that you can print out.
As a rule of thumb the first battalion carried one white and one coloured flag, the other battalions two coloured flags each. Jaeger regiments didn't carry flags. In March 1807 a system of identifying regiments within a division by the stave colours was introduced, the first regiment had white staves, the second pale yellow, the third coffee brown and the fourth black.
Thanks Bob, but I've beaten you to it. I was up till the wee small hours putting together a battalion distiction guide for Number One Son (aka Daddy's little Stalinist aka Bloody Go and wash your armpits). The info I've got has the stave colours changing again. The site - war flags I think- mentions the system you have above, but notes it changes to a Yellow/Black/White/Yellow sequence. A further saved web page (well pasted into Word) gives me the precedence within the Division, because it is for the shoulder straps. I've got the flags ready - as you say 1 Bn, 1 White for 1st, and 2 Bn for the 3rd bn. They are 9mm high, which is about right (My maths on a 142cm square flag). (27th Infantry of VIII Corps)
I've also preped the flags for #2 sons French- 10th Div III Corps, along with notes for him about pom-pom colours - Handily we will be doing 6 base bns, so 1 base per coy. Flags include the Fanions for the 2-4th bns, and are 6mm high. I know the Light were not supposed to carry their Eagles in battle, but we know they did, and 24ths has 7 battle honours, which you can just make out on screen
No problem, there's nothing like doing the research yourself to get a better understanding of what was going on. The seniority of regiments in the division is an awkward one though and to be honest I couldn't actually determine what regiments were senior and what were not, so some wargamer's inventiveness had to be used for that. I'm sure someone has a webpage or blog listing it all, but it's too late for me to go back and repaint all my staves - I know in my own mind, as do most other warganers, that I obviously made the correct choice for that particular moment in history ;)
All the best with the project and don't forget to post a bat rep of the first thrashing your Russians give them Frenchies.
The reason I kept asking wasn't laziness, the Russians are so damn confusing, I needed someone to help me straighten my thoughts! Actually I'm molly-coddling the kids (whose armies they are). Their dyslexia means they will take the first result, rather than keep digging at contradictions. :-\ >:( =)
I wish there was a Napoleonic version of the Kronoskaf wiki for SYW - everything in one place, and all uniform (ha) in layout.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 07 September 2011, 07:52:35 PM
I wish there was a Napoleonic version of the Kronoskaf wiki for SYW - everything in one place, and all uniform (ha) in layout.
Oh yes - that'd be lovely...tell you what, maybe if we asked Megamatman nicely he could knock this out over the weekend? ;) :P ;D 8)
So the figures have arrived. Look at the Grenadiers - the plume appears to be the pre-1812 'Bog Brush'. Additionally Youngest son (Napoleon) likes the French Lozenge rather than the Tricolore. However, because Daddy's Little Stalinist (long story) has Aspergers, and we have already researched 'Borodino' units he refuses to do pre-1812. 1812 is when the Russian started to get their... well stuff... together, so fighting pre 12 French on post 12 Russians will require negotiation...
If they both moved out I could have a war-room... [sigh]