Hi - just noticed weve gor 33 guests on line at the mo and 4 members, so I thought a little discussion on the Pros and cons of 10mm compared to other scales may interest and 'tempt' the guests into dipping into 10mil.
Obvious Pro's are
COST- at 10p per figure there is no comparison to the 15/25/28 mm figures - averaging £1 a figure
PLAYING AREA- decent size games can be played on a kitchen table with realistic 'ranges'
DETAIL- depends on maker of figures - but in comparison to 6mm - fantastic (look at Pendrakens AWI/7YW ranges)
BIG BATTALIONS- Lots of figures for your cash - gone are the days of having 12 man Regts
CONS -? Well maybe a few - Detail in some of the ranges- but you arent going to see it in 10mm
Completeness of 'Period' - some firms do not 'complete' the range- AIM (great Naps range but limited to troop types) - but this said things are improving every month-. Not a WW2 buff myself, but look at Pendrakens 10mm range-who could ask for anything more? ( well obviously we can-and do, where are the Finnish bugle players?)
So if you are a guest and are reading this post - take it from a 23 year collector/painter, for building realistic size armies youl'l not look back after starting 10mm. Try a few packs of your fave period, youll get hooked!!
Anyone else any comments on Pro's and Cons? ;D
All pros no cons for me.
Cost is certainly a main factor as is playing area. However, with the increase in Hard plastics cost for larger figures are falling dramatically. However, time to get to the table is another factor with 10mm winning hnads down even over 15mm figures.
I prefer gaming in the smaller figures scales 15mm and below, mostly due to my lack of playing area, ease of transport and storage space (especially for terrain).
My only concerns are the lack of companies producing 10mm figures. Basically we have 3 main companies, Pendraken, Old Glory, Magister Militum. This means the support for this scale in regards to diversity in ranges and figure sculpts is not as good as the other more popular scales. My fear is that 10mm could so easily go the same way as 6mm with 1 or 2 main players.
Adrian
Ton's of pros (I do WW2 in 10mm)
BUT
I would like to see more detail and multi-part kits. The multi-part kit idea comes from a idea to have larger guns made in a harder metal (eg tank guns) cause I hate trying to straighten out gun barrels. It would also be cool to swap out things like cargo and bed types on trucks.
The biggest thing I don't like about 10mm is lack of support for the product. What i mean by this is no pictures on the web-sites, having to hunt though blogs and tabing back to the site to do orders is not cool. Also short unit bio's would be cool as well, like tank x was used from 1939 till 1942 in north Africa or these (ancient unit) lived around in X-Y century and could have fought against Romans. Miniature war gaming is hard to get into for a person especially if they don't have someone to show them the ropes. I have 3 guys helping me and I know a little and I mean a little about WW2 and it's still kinda hard for me to get into, of course this is true for all historical gaming anyway. Why is this?
Quote from: Hurley on 08 April 2010, 06:17:17 PM
The biggest thing I don't like about 10mm is lack of support for the product. What i mean by this is no pictures on the web-sites, having to hunt though blogs and tabing back to the site to do orders is not cool. Also short unit bio's would be cool as well, like tank x was used from 1939 till 1942 in north Africa or these (ancient unit) lived around in X-Y century and could have fought against Romans. Miniature war gaming is hard to get into for a person especially if they don't have someone to show them the ropes. I have 3 guys helping me and I know a little and I mean a little about WW2 and it's still kinda hard for me to get into, of course this is true for all historical gaming anyway. Why is this?
This is something I've been interested in for a while, a short paragraph description for each range. I'm not sure about the logistics of doing it for every item though!
Quote from: Leon on 08 April 2010, 06:21:29 PM
This is something I've been interested in for a while, a short paragraph description for each range. I'm not sure about the logistics of doing it for every item though!
What Hurley says. ^
Bios can be found in libraries, on the Web, anywhere and everywhere, Leon. Hurley is right that we really need more pictures of the actual models in your ranges, even if unpainted, to make adequate shopping choices. I've heard this complaint for some time and from diehard miniature gamers, too. Give it a thought, will you?
As for the pros of 10mm: they provide (1) nice detail in the models, (2) a nice mass on your table and (3) a nice bang for your buck. Can't beat that, no matter what your fav period is.
Cheers,
Aart
Quote from: Aart Brouwer on 09 April 2010, 12:22:15 AM
Bios can be found in libraries, on the Web, anywhere and everywhere, Leon. Hurley is right that we really need more pictures of the actual models in your ranges, even if unpainted, to make adequate shopping choices. I've heard this complaint for some time and from diehard miniature gamers, too. Give it a thought, will you?
The pictures will all be done, I was referring to the bio's of each model. It would take us forever to provide dates/specifications/opponents for every code in the catalogue. I would like to do it for each range though.
Quote from: Leon on 09 April 2010, 12:48:26 AM
The pictures will all be done [..]
Great. I've already noticed the extra pictures on the new website, that's a good start. Of course bios would be nice. but your core business is models and you have a lot to show for even in the unpainted department. That new picture you put up of an unpainted Panther model is a better sales pitch than the best WWII doctoral thesis. And anyway, if you have time to spare, I'd use it to produce decals and other accessory stuff for the models. Sorry if all this comes across as insufferable meddling, I'm just a Pendraken enthusiast trying to put in my 2 cents. The new site is a beaut and I still feel like a kid in a candy shop every time I visit.
Cheers,
Aart
Quote from: Aart Brouwer on 09 April 2010, 08:20:14 AM
Great. I've already noticed the extra pictures on the new website, that's a good start. Of course bios would be nice. but your core business is models and you have a lot to show for even in the unpainted department. That new picture you put up of an unpainted Panther model is a better sales pitch than the best WWII doctoral thesis. And anyway, if you have time to spare, I'd use it to produce decals and other accessory stuff for the models. Sorry if all this comes across as insufferable meddling, I'm just a Pendraken enthusiast trying to put in my 2 cents. The new site is a beaut and I still feel like a kid in a candy shop every time I visit.
Cheers,
Aart
I've been looking at decals, and it's something we'd like to offer at some point. At the moment, I haven't done enough research to make it commercially viable, but I'll keep looking.
Quote from: Leon on 09 April 2010, 12:48:26 AM
The pictures will all be done, I was referring to the bio's of each model. It would take us forever to provide dates/specifications/opponents for every code in the catalogue. I would like to do it for each range though.
Just an idea, but couldn't bio's and stuff like that be done by the users? A bit like a wiki? When and if someone messes up with a description, it could easily be rectified. Most people that play a specific period have a good bit of knowledge about it, and can often say of the top of their head what years that say the PzKW III e was used in. Of course, having just done the site, I can see the dilemma. But maybe appoint a number of period editors for the bio's that can moderate a room on the boards and that way the bio's could grow organically? Or am I just being naive?
Quote from: Pruneau on 09 April 2010, 02:51:07 PM
Just an idea, but couldn't bio's and stuff like that be done by the users? A bit like a wiki? When and if someone messes up with a description, it could easily be rectified. Most people that play a specific period have a good bit of knowledge about it, and can often say of the top of their head what years that say the PzKW III e was used in. Of course, having just done the site, I can see the dilemma. But maybe appoint a number of period editors for the bio's that can moderate a room on the boards and that way the bio's could grow organically? Or am I just being naive?
It can be done, although I'm not sure about putting something like that on the website, it would take up a lot of space around the products, and the site isn't set up to allow people to edit things in a Wiki-style. I think that kind of thing is something which would be done on here, which is fine, we'd have to create a space for it if enough people were interested. And we'd have to come up with a suitable format.
On the website, I'm going to talk to Mat about having a small paragraph inside each range, with a short bit of info on it. Obviously people have a lot of knowledge about WW2, but it would be useful for some of the smaller ranges we do, like the South Pacific War range. It could also contain info on which other ranges are compatible for that period.
I am a firm convert to 10mm, the main reason being you can fight with proper sized armies without compromise. At the moment my 1942 period western desert consists of one complete panzer div, one italian div and two british divs complete with all the artillery and support.
On the down side: Figure manufactures, including Pendraken (although this is getting better) believe that because it is of a small scale then we can get by with just one or two figure poses (see WW1 Turkish Infantry), gun crew that arn't and ranges that are not complete. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages but for me infantry for any period needs to be available in a minimum of three poses, four would be better. Proper gun crew of say four or five different figures in poses relating to the weapon. Not like the current Pendraken bofors gun : the gun is a great model, I think the crew come from the 5.5"!! I'm using minifigs bofors simply because they have seated crew!.
(Warning after writing this up I realized it sounded very negative please understand that it is just me trying to make historical wargaming easier to get into. My point of view is from a non-old school wargamer so I'm used to sites like GW, PP, and Battlefront)
Well I fully understand that time is money. I also understand that it would take time to do all the bio's but what if we (form users) did up the bio's so you could copy paste them?
For the WW 2 stuff at you need is year production started and ended next to the name of the product. Eg. GR102 (1935-1943) panzer 2
I believe if you talk to the guys over at BKC they have all the would done for you as well because of their army lists. Man would it make my life easier if I could shop by time line or BKC army list. That would be a dream to go: open site put in start and end date for production. See what I can buy for my army. Click checkout.
One small thing I do not like about the new layout of the site is I would like to see the full lineup of the army, not just 30 or 40 at a time. I just tried to search for panzer II and got everything with panzer in it. With the old site I just went to the army list (Germans) and used the find option under edit. Perhaps you could up the number of entries on each page like ebay does?
Hurley
Hurley
Quote from: Martyn on 09 April 2010, 07:57:51 PM
I am a firm convert to 10mm, the main reason being you can fight with proper sized armies without compromise. At the moment my 1942 period western desert consists of one complete panzer div, one italian div and two british divs complete with all the artillery and support.
On the down side: Figure manufactures, including Pendraken (although this is getting better) believe that because it is of a small scale then we can get by with just one or two figure poses (see WW1 Turkish Infantry), gun crew that arn't and ranges that are not complete. The advantages outweigh the disadvantages but for me infantry for any period needs to be available in a minimum of three poses, four would be better. Proper gun crew of say four or five different figures in poses relating to the weapon. Not like the current Pendraken bofors gun : the gun is a great model, I think the crew come from the 5.5"!! I'm using minifigs bofors simply because they have seated crew!.
Thanks for the comments, some valid points, especially about the gun crew. I've made a note to get some more crew made when we get chance, including some seated chaps.
The incomplete ranges is kind of a bugbear for me too, I've got a list of things we need to do to finish off some ranges, but it's difficult to quantify what is 'complete'. The other problem we get is, with the number of requests, sometimes we have to shift focus from one range, to meet the demand for another, and quite often, we don't get chance to return to the original project! Hopefully with the requests coming in, we'll be able to address this properly.
With poses, it's a delicate balance between variation and economics. Increasing the number of poses, from 3 to 5 for example, is an extra 66% outlay straight away, and it's quite often hard to justify that when you consider the potential sales of an item. We've always tried to strike a happy medium somewhere in between, and our more recent ranges have had a bit more variation in them (AWI, Late Romans, SCW).
Quote from: Hurley on 10 April 2010, 02:09:50 PM
Well I fully understand that time is money. I also understand that it would take time to do all the bio's but what if we (form users) did up the bio's so you could copy paste them? For the WW 2 stuff at you need is year production started and ended next to the name of the product. Eg. GR102 (1935-1943) panzer 2
I believe if you talk to the guys over at BKC they have all the would done for you as well because of their army lists. Man would it make my life easier if I could shop by time line or BKC army list. That would be a dream to go: open site put in start and end date for production. See what I can buy for my army. Click checkout.
One small thing I do not like about the new layout of the site is I would like to see the full lineup of the army, not just 30 or 40 at a time. I just tried to search for panzer II and got everything with panzer in it. With the old site I just went to the army list (Germans) and used the find option under edit. Perhaps you could up the number of entries on each page like ebay does?
Thanks for the comments. I'll talk to Mat about possibly incorporating something like a bio into the new site. It might only be something in the descriptions, but we'll see. One problem with this though, is that production of Tank A might have ended in '41 say, but they would have continued using them until they were all destroyed, so how would you put an end date on it?
On your other point, we can increase the number of codes per page, so I'll talk to Mat about that as well. When you're searching for something like Pazner II, make sure to click the box marked 'Search for all words', this will filter out all the other stuff to get you what you want.
Well if the tank went till all where destroyed then I would say production started in year X till remodeled or destroyed.
Thanks
Chris Hurley
I'd like to add my pros & cons too. First let me address the so called 10mm figure size, I won't use scale as such, because 10mm has no fixed scale, as I would define it anyway. :o I say this because I have figures from your WW1 range that are approximately 10mm high, and figures from the SF range that are clearly giants among men at nearly 13mm (12.97 to be precise). This really, really bugs me.
However, the figures have a good bulk to them and are a doddle to paint well. Nearly as easy to paint as 6mm, and a lot less time consuming than 15mm figures, which have always been a firm favourite of mine for skirmish gaming. I use to think that 6mm was God's one true scale, as having loads of miniatures on the table really rocks my boat when it comes to portraying bigger actions. ;D
What I have discovered though is that using of 10mm figures is for me the ideal compromise wargame figure size, because it is easier to keep track of the small units, and I care about the forces under my command as they stand apart more as individuals, rather than tokens. 8)
As usual YMMV, T&CA, E&OE. ::)
- Price : £1-2 for a vehicle vs £10 for a 15mm tank. Some Pendraken army packs are a steal.
- Size : A decent army fits in a small box
- Easy to paint. It gets even better with the new washes.
- Enough detail so that you still see what's on the table, unlike 6mm
- Mass effect : Armies tend to look like armies, not the local reenactment society.
The only downside, Tank units can be quite heavy.
Quote from: Paint it Pink on 10 April 2010, 06:20:45 PM
I have figures from your WW1 range that are approximately 10mm high, and figures from the SF range that are clearly giants among men at nearly 13mm (12.97 to be precise). This really, really bugs me.
It's something we try to avoid, but with the Sci-Fi, we class them as 10mm but they were never designed to be used with the historical stuff. The rest of our ranges do adhere to a general size rule, although there are exceptions in the much older ranges.
T'is a pity that the SF figures weren't kept to the same size rules, as it would have made them more attractive for mix & match games and crossovers. I would have bought a whole bunch of them too.
Quote from: Patrick R on 15 April 2010, 06:14:17 PM
- Price : £1-2 for a vehicle vs £10 for a 15mm tank. Some Pendraken army packs are a steal.
- Size : A decent army fits in a small box
- Easy to paint. It gets even better with the new washes.
- Enough detail so that you still see what's on the table, unlike 6mm
- Mass effect : Armies tend to look like armies, not the local reenactment society.
The only downside, Tank units can be quite heavy.
Hi,
I think all sizes have their pros and cons. I personaly use everything from 6mm to 54mm.
I guess it depends where one's inclination is : detail Vs quantity Vs gaming space Vs price (in any order you like).
I personaly do not like to use miniatures as tokens(even though it's what they are if you think about it) but rather as small guys following orders on my gaming table.So i tend to go with details and i 'm lucky enough to be able to have a 8" x 6" table at home(it took me about 20 years to get there though :-X )
I'd have to dissagree with you when it comes to price and especially when it comes to the detail level of some 6mm miniatures as you say.
Look out there and you will find some 6mm tanks for about 1£ a piece and with more details than a 1:35 kit.
So yes , there's definitly some great pros for 10mm but as well for many other scales.
Check forums on different scales , everybody will tell you that "their " scales is the best ;)
Like some old saying goes: Tastes and colors...
Quote from: Patrick R on 15 April 2010, 06:14:17 PM
- Mass effect : Armies tend to look like armies, not the local reenactment society.
:D
I remember when some in our club produced a conversion for WarMaster in 25mm. The others went "Why?". Why they wanted their units to be 12 figures instead of 36 I'll never know.
I actually think a lot of wargames make more sense in 10mm than 25, or even 15.
I have been trying to convince my son that 40K would be better in 10mm (He has Aspergers, so its even worse arguing with him than a normal Fanboy). Instead of 1 28mm figure you put 2-3 10mm on a base. It still counts as 1 (ie fire by base, not figure), but your units represent 20-30 men - thats a platoon, and fire distances are now 30 x the height of a man, instead of 12. Plus you wouldn't get those artillery duels at 2 vehicle lengths.
It works with almost any set - Shako. The base sizes are 1 1/8 inches (nice convenient size there, Arty) by half an inch Call it 30mm x 15mm. Thats 4 or 5 wide by 2 deep, rather than 3x1.
Regiment of foot by Peter Pig. 1 base is 30mm square - 4 of their figures 2x2. I get pike blocks of 16 figures per base with Pendraken stuff.
When people say "10mm, just halve the distances" my reaction is "why". All it means is your vertical scale is less over blown than normal.
The only rules which are figure height specific that I know of is "Troops Weapons and Tactics" by TooFatLardies. These were written specifically for the new hard plastic 28mm, and vertical and horizontal scales are the same - even then I'm using 20mm, and it works fine. 10mm would distort it - grenade range would appear to be 180 feet! Of course you could easily play on 10mm, by annoying Rich, and going metric, but as its such a small scale - a platoon+ a side ; 45 figures; then the visual appeal would be lost (TW&T terrain is exactly what it looks like).
I'm going to stick with 6mm for my Cold War armies- for tank heavy battles, but virtually everything else I start is 10mm (Next up, after painting mush of what I have is Charlie Dont Surf - Rules 1 VC and 1 'Free world' army pack - less than £60, though I will have to get some tracks and Hueys too.)
Quote from: Last Hussar on 30 June 2010, 11:45:09 PM
I'm going to stick with 6mm for my Cold War armies- for tank heavy battles, but virtually everything else I start is 10mm (Next up, after painting mush of what I have is Charlie Dont Surf - Rules 1 VC and 1 'Free world' army pack - less than £60, though I will have to get some tracks and Hueys too.)
You'll need two of the US Army packs for the compoany you'll want and the VC Army pack is an unholy mix of VC and NVA
For my two penny worth, 10mm has a pro over 6mm (which I also do) in that you can see them just that much better. Anda proover 15mm (which I also do) in that being smaller, you can use a smaller table, or have more figures. Cheaper, easier to paint, you can get more for your £. There's nothing not to like about 10mm IMO. ;D
So far I haven't found any "cons" to 10mm and am getting rid of my other scales as fast as possible, all the ancient 15s have gone, replaced by 10mm and the 25mm Naps are next to be replaced by Pendraken 7YW :D
Unlike 6mm they're big enough to distinguish units and vehicles and they "sit" in the terrain rather than dominate hiills and trees, finally an army looks like an army, not just like a few big figures on a table.
Yes - totaly agree mate - and the cost is lots cheaper- to achieve an 'army' rather than a skirmish amount of men(units). This is more apparant , say for instance AWI- in which a decent sized 'historical' army could be bought for £25 or such , lets face it doods- you cant winge at that!!
:D