Has anyone ever done FOW in 10mm? If so how did you do the basing?
Also what other fun WW2 rules are out there.
IABSM by too fat lardies is a fast and fun company level game. A pendraken army would cost about £12 depending on what you wanted.
Blitzkrieg Commander is a great set and largely based on 10mm as a scale ;D
We get a lot of people using our stuff for FoW, but I'd have to check on the basing sizes.
I'll second Blitzkrieg Commander
Spearhead with some club modifications, we like this set as it is fairly quick and fun to play plus we usually get a 18 - 24 foot by 6 table done over a weekend last game was the battle of Prochorovka which was a very full table of 14' x 6' oh and as the umpire i was totally impartial even though my ruskies kicked butt. I will try to upload some pictures as soon as I get a chance.
Tom
Blitzkrieg Commander for me - it was *great* originally & now it's *stunning* in 2nd edition :)
Quote from: nikharwood on 10 March 2010, 10:04:18 PM
Blitzkrieg Commander for me - it was *great* originally & now it's *stunning* in 2nd edition :)
Are you talking about the rules, or all your nice figures in the pictures?!
;D
Fow is one of the wost WWII rule sets ever written.
Blitzkrieg Commander however is excellent and designed for 10mm figs.
Examples of our stuff here...http://www.durhamwargames.co.uk/battle_reports/2010/02/index.asp (http://www.durhamwargames.co.uk/battle_reports/2010/02/index.asp)
Blitzkreig Commander or else...or is that a bit too demanding? :-*
I've got BKC version 1. Now then as I only bought it a year ago should I get version 2?
Quote from: Ben Waterhouse on 12 March 2010, 10:43:06 AM
I've got BKC version 1. Now then as I only bought it a year ago should I get version 2?
Up to you really.
2nd Ed. dosn't make any fundamental changes but puts in a lot of little tweaks that smoothe over some of the issues.
We upgraded, but its not essentially really.
The one thing i was surprised at is that the Future War skirmish rules haven't been developed into the other periods and 2nd Ed. I think they have real potential to challenge Legends of the Old West as a top skirmish set.
I like Spearhead. The only drawback is that the overall commander who gives the order has the most fun because he plans the strategy. However, with that said, if the goal is to try to re-enact history or the like, you will have fun. If you like to nitpick the rules just to win, you will not fully enjoy Spearhead.
Gregg
My group is doing Spearhead. We are trying to do the war 75 years later. In September - November we did Poland 1939, We just finished Winter War 1940. I am gearing up for Norway in April, then France and the Low Countries through this Summer.
Larry
I also use Spearhead rules. I base my 10mm Infantry on 1 1/4" x 1 1/4" bases, My Vehicles on 1 1/4" x 1 1/2" or 2" for Bigger Vehicles.
My rules for infantry are 4 figures for rifle stands, 5 for engineer stands and 3 for SMG stands. For support weapons its 1 per 1 1/4" x 1 1/4" stand with the crew.
Larry
Blitzkrieg Commander and pendraken miniatures, What more could you want 8)
Hi
Not a fan of FOW (for any scale, good enough stats and systems let down by awful sequence of play and the 'special' rules and the 'you need the latest booklet' approach), they do have a great web-site though full of interesting articles etc, Anyhow................
Blitzkrieg Commander & Spearhead both mentioned already are great sets.
I would also reccomend Battle Group Panzer Grenadier 2nd Edition for smaller games (ie roughly 1 Coy per side) which works fine for 10mm using 15mm measurements.
I have recently bought Piquet Field Of Battle WWII which is a much higher level set but which looks interesting and perfectly playable with 10mm.
Command Decision Test Of Battle is another set to consider
Really any set that use unit bases for Infantry is suitable for 10mm, beware for they are legion ! ;D
I guess you could play skirmish style with 10mm but your eyesight and dexterity would need to be good ;)
Cheers
Gary
Our group use Operation Warboard. We started off in 15mm but as the games got bigger we dropped the scale to 10mm. All troops are individually based and we run a 1:1 scale for unit sizes.
Personally I can't stand any of the xxC rules.
I Aint been Shot Mum by the Too Fat Lardies is good. I use my PBI armies, which are 3-4 figs to a base. We say a base is either 4 or 5 men, and use 2 bases per section (depending on army a section is 8 or 10 men), with a tiny die for casualty marker. If you get it, and have unbased figures, put them on pennies individually, and do figure removal for kills.
Usual game size is a company, with the section as the unit size.
Their other game is Troops Weapons and Tactics. Most people use the larger figures for this- I use 20mm because I was given some some years ago, but they were wriiten for 28mm. Unlike most game 'written for' a size, it is important in TW&T, as figure and ground scale are the same. You could do it in 10mm by using cm instead of inches, and therefore have a set you coulc play on a coffee table. Men are again individual, the game is for a platoon+support per side, with 'fire teams' being the smallest unit, though sections are often moved as a whole until you get to the fire and maneouver phase of a battle.
TW&T is sort of son of IABSM. They are card driven- each platoon(IABSM)/Section(TW&T) has a card, as do the 'Big Men' who can activate troops on their command. Plus there is a tea break card, which ends the turn. This is either a god send (when you are under the cosh) or frustrating - seeing all those enemy cards reshuffled into the deck when you still have men not yet moved!
Word of warning - parts of the rules rely on judgement- fine if you have an umpire, but negotiation is sometimes called for without one "I'm trying to spot that unit- What do you think 7, maybe 8." "But I did have yopu underfire last turn" "true, but they are running accross open ground- lets go with 8" "Ok"
Don't worry- there are guidelines.
Look- buy IABSM on PDF download- its only seven quid, and if you play FoW or BK(spit)C you already have armies for it.
If anyone in the Bucks/Herts area wants a game to try them out contact me, and I'll see what I can arrange.
"FoW or BK(spit)C"
I can't believe you'll happily spit at BKC & not FoW :o ;)
Quote from: nikharwood on 15 March 2010, 11:09:33 PM
"FoW or BK(spit)C"
I can't believe you'll happily spit at BKC & not FoW :o ;)
Aye...we're through the looking glass here people...
Personally i think the TFL stable of games are pretty ropey...different strokes i guess. :D
Quotedifferent strokes i guess
Blimey - now *there's* a programme...
(http://www.vinmag.com/online/media/gbu0/prodlg/TS065.jpg)
Quote from: nikharwood on 15 March 2010, 11:09:33 PM
"FoW or BK(spit)C"
I can't believe you'll happily spit at BKC & not FoW :o ;)
Never played FoW
Last Hussar: what is it about BKC etc that you do not like?
as has also been said I find the TFL sets 'ropey'; I certainly dislike card activated games.
FOW has to be the worst set of WW2 rules of all time. The problem with FOW is that it does not know what it is suppose to represent so you end up with the stupid situation of an infantry company with corps and divisional assets just so the models can be put on the table. The great thing with 10mm is you can actually field a division without having to compromise. I use my own rules based on the combat system from Crossfire for infantry and Charles Grant's "Battle" for the tanks. Be bold research your subject and then come up with something that works.
Quote from: Martyn on 17 March 2010, 01:13:42 PM
FOW has to be the worst set of WW2 rules of all time.
Couldn't agree more.
It simply doesn't represent WWII 'battle friction' in any way, so doesn't win on the simulationst front. It also has poor, clunky 'crunch' (game mechanics) and a GW-style income-generator ethic to its rules that make it a poor game so loses ont he 'gamist' front also.
E.g. we used FoW for a campaign on Leros.
Defender - 1 platoon of British infantry entrenched on a rocky height (very difficult ground).
Attacker - 1 coy of germans attacking up hill into this position.
Mostly infantry on both sides.
In 3 turns the Germans vaulted up the mountain (apparently wearing jet packs) and wiped out the British without taking a single loss.
:o
Dummys were thrown and a stunned disbeleif descended on the table.
Everyone expected the German forces to overrun the Brits but after a hard fight and considerable loss. Laughable.
We've not played them since and i sold all my FoW books and 15mm figures...
Rules to be avoided like the plague in my opinion.
:D
I have the Troops weapons and tactics rules and like some of the ideas in them but just cant get used to using cards to activate, have been playing storming the reich rules recently and find them pretty good ( a bit like rapid fire but with more detail). All my 10mm are individually based giving me the option for fighting the odd skirmish when time allows.....
I think the cards are one of the strengths of TW&T. It is a low level game, and the turns represent short period of time. The irregular turn sequence feels like the confused friction of platoon level encounters- a squad rushes forward, then pauses trying to get its bearings, while another is geed into action by its corporal.
Will try my twit rules again as they seem to have what Im looking for, just gotta get over the card issue!
Quote from: slinky on 17 March 2010, 08:42:12 PM
Will try my twit rules again as they seem to have what Im looking for, just gotta get over the card issue!
Dunno about the card issue, its the crass name i can't get over... ::)
Many people can't see past the name, though it is usually written with a & not an 'a'. Pity, because they are a brilliant set of rules- if for some reason I was going to be restricted to playing one set of WW2 for the rest of my life, it would be these.
What makes BKC so good?
Right now I like FOW cause it's easy to learn and I don't have to spend time trying to figure out what can I play with army wise. I like fun and not wasting time looking up tables or having to tack stuff like in CBT.
At this point I should put out there what I play or played.
Impetus
Warmachine
40k
Wings of war
chaos in Carpatha
BFG
CBT
Gearing up for:
Necromunda
War hammer historical
Fantasy Imputus
Something ww2.
Quote from: Hurley on 20 March 2010, 03:46:46 AM
What makes BKC so good?
Very little. I really do not understand why people rave over them. The C&C rules, which every body lauds, make little sense in a number of situations- especially when firing. I can shoot AUTOMATICALLY on reaction, but during my turn I can't. The standard reply is "Well not a billiard table/fold in the ground etc" which I understand, but a) why automatic shooting in reaction fire- surely those folds are still there and b) why does the location of the C/O make a difference to what I can see?
Additionally if 1 mode of a tank is a platton or single vehicle (depending what you are playing) then the AT rules make little sense, especially at the 1:1 scale. A single tank is either dead or it isn't - the chance of a (mission) kill stays relatively steady- it doen't rely on a number of vehcles shootsing, except in 'lottery terms' - the more shots the more chance of a winning line.
Quote from: Hurley on 20 March 2010, 03:46:46 AM
What makes BKC so good?
Right now I like FOW cause it's easy to learn and I don't have to spend time trying to figure out what can I play with army wise. I like fun and not wasting time looking up tables or having to tack stuff like in CBT.
There aren't any tables to reference in BKC... ???
QuoteAt this point I should put out there what I play or played.
Impetus
Warmachine
40k
Wings of war
chaos in Carpatha
BFG
CBT
I can see why you like FoW then. Its definately in that stable...hehe...
Quote from: Last Hussar on 20 March 2010, 01:52:57 PM
Quote from: Hurley on 20 March 2010, 03:46:46 AM
What makes BKC so good?
Very little.
Couldn't disagree more. :D
QuoteThe C&C rules, which every body lauds, make little sense in a number of situations- especially when firing. I can shoot AUTOMATICALLY on reaction, but during my turn I can't. The standard reply is "Well not a billiard table/fold in the ground etc" which I understand, but a) why automatic shooting in reaction fire- surely those folds are still there and b) why does the location of the C/O make a difference to what I can see?
Its all about modelling battle friction and the ebb and flow of WWII conflict engagements, which many games fail to capture, some make a good stab at and BkC captures elegantly and almost perfectly. For years we played Crossfire precisely for its accurate modelling of this friction, but BkC does it just as well and also adds in simple, elegant mechanics to model the combined arms nature of WWII, which Crossfire has always struggled with.
Do you feel the opportunity fire should be diced for rather than automatic? No problem, simply introduce the house rule.
Opportunity perfectly reflects the key part of WWII battle friction - that of the ability of static troops (i.e. the side who's go it isn't and therefore the side that has momentarily lost initiative) to pin down advancing enemy who are vulnerable to fire while moving.
Troops 'on their turn' are subject to their command, and are therefore more occupied with taking initiative and following orders, making it far harder to react to the enemy (therefore requiring orders to shoot).
If it helps, its best to conceptualise (as in Crossfire) that movement and shooting is occurring
all the time but the stuff you're dicing for are the critical actions during that phase of inititive friction...
BkC models this absolutely vital element of WWII battles brilliantly. Unlike FoW which is...well...the rulebooks look pretty at least.
QuoteAdditionally if 1 mode of a tank is a platton or single vehicle (depending what you are playing) then the AT rules make little sense, especially at the 1:1 scale. A single tank is either dead or it isn't - the chance of a (mission) kill stays relatively steady- it doen't rely on a number of vehcles shootsing, except in 'lottery terms' - the more shots the more chance of a winning line.
That only applies if you assume that a hit is only a mechanical 'kill'. A hit in BkC does not solely represent a tank 'brewing up' (in fact it defaults to one tank model actually representing a formation of tanks), but it represents the morale effects of taking fire also.
Inexperienced tank crews (expecially Americans) could be forced to withdraw simply by small arms fire hitting their tank. Unaware of what was being fired at them, the'd withraw rather than risk being under ranging fire from say a co-axial tank MG...
We've been playing many WWII rules for years. Crossfire was our favourite, but BkC has replaced them becuase they are just so accurate and playable.
Still, each to their own. ;D ;D
Luddite your telling me nothing that I haven't been told before, and I didn't agree then either. I've tried, I really have- the whole club is blind to the obvious faults. I'll stick with the Lardies- rules written for the period, not a set of converted Ancients ;)
Quote from: Last Hussar on 20 March 2010, 11:11:34 PM
Luddite your telling me nothing that I haven't been told before, and I didn't agree then either. I've tried, I really have- the whole club is blind to the obvious faults. I'll stick with the Lardies- rules written for the period, not a set of converted Ancients ;)
Says the man who has spent the past few weeks desperately selling me on Black Powder as the sliced bread for 18th century to FPW!!! :P
Personally I really like both BKC and IABSM/TW&T, depending on the level of action i want to represent. Both certainly get played at the Tring club. If I'm playing Last Hussar I play IABSM or TW&T, if I'm playing anyone else its BKC.
Nice debate fellas ;D
BKC for me -*every* time... ;D not going to write an essay as it's been so eloquently 'pimped' here by others 8)
Each to there own, but myself i find BKC rules better. no rules are perfect and some need some mods made to them but they work well for me ;D
Blitzkreig Commander for me after 50 years of wargaming.
To answer your original question Hurley, yes I used 10mm for FoW, didn't alter bases sizes and had no problems with it. However, FoW was not my cup of tea so moved onto BKC. Initially I liked BKC alot but the nagging doubts crept in. Fun game but not for me, not the right historical feel. ;D
Adrian
Quote from: sunjester on 20 March 2010, 11:27:24 PM
Says the man who has spent the past few weeks desperately selling me on Black Powder as the sliced bread for 18th century to FPW!!! :P
I haven't spent weeks - or at least not conciously.
If you feel browbeaten then I'm happy to do something else.
I played a few different wargames over quite some years , and in my experience there's always different factors attracting different kind of gamers.
Some of us like the rules,some the gaming, some the painting , some the research and some everything in between.
For my part , i read do research and read rules because i am an academic at heart, i paint and build because i love my "geeky"hobby(and that still makes the girlfriend laugh :D) and i play because i can't resist having fun with some friends.
I get as much good fun playing over detailed and very realistic set of rules as as i would get playing let's say FOW, it all comes down to how much time on our hands we have.
The point here , i think ,is that you can always tweak rules to suit your gaming style, make your own or pick up those you like from different systems.
I seem to remember that almost all rulbooks include a "designer's notes" section that usually says break and tweak , make it your own.
Anyways,what always attracted me to miniature wargames is the community , discussing ideas and sharing some fun time with my mates.(On that note i met most of my best buddies while wargaming)
So have a grand day and enjoy your favorite ruleset :D
Quote from: Last Hussar on 22 March 2010, 02:26:13 AM
I haven't spent weeks - or at least not conciously.
If you feel browbeaten then I'm happy to do something else.
;) Don't worry, I don't feel at all browbeaten about itl.
I just think it's funny, that's all :P
Quote from: sunjester on 20 March 2010, 11:27:24 PM
[ If I'm playing Last Hussar I play IABSM or TW&T, if I'm playing anyone else its BKC.
You made it sound like I was being 'babysat' - are me and 'Gimli' on some sort of rota?
Hummm well I've read all the post so far and well I'm not sure about FOW or BKC now. I'm kinda gun sly about games that people say are "elegant" cause in the past every game that I tried that people use that word to describe has turned out to be over simplified and I get the "Emperor's new cloths" effect of everyone who is anyone plays this game! But this could just be me.
Questions:
Does BKC have facings for tanks so that it matters if I shoot them in the side armour?
Quote from: Hurley on 25 March 2010, 05:33:37 PM
Does BKC have facings for tanks so that it matters if I shoot them in the side armour?
Yes.
Although given the scale BkC plays at its more of an abstraction than simply 'thinner side armour'...
I find BKC works for me when each stand is a platoon; when the tanks are individual I want something a bit more "treadhead." But BKC gets most of the play here, the tactical problems are real enough and two of the "dead" Panzer IVs on my side table right now can testify to the effectiveness of flank shots.
Does anyone ever 'cut and shunt' rules where they can't find a set that quite fits the bill? I like BKC and Rapid Fire but wish that BKC had combat resolution like Rapid Fire and that Rapid Fire had a command and control system like BKC!! I've often thought of combining the two. Anybody ever done this?
As to TFL rules. They come up with fun workable systems in some of their sets. Bag the Hun and Kis me Hardy are excellent and innovative. Can't get to grips with their WW2 sets though. Each to their own though. The great thing about wargaming is that there is a set of rules to suit nearly everybodys tastes. Well, nearly everybody anyway......
Gerard.
Yes Gerard,I use a hybrid of CWC and MSH for modern 6mm games.BKC/CWC are fantastic rules,but they do struggle when you play a very big game.I use the combat and movement from MSH and the command/the rest from CWC......Hope this helps..........
FOW is for those who have spent far, far too much time in the company of elves and dwarfs!
Quote from: Martyn on 09 April 2010, 08:21:02 PM
... in the company of elves and dwarfs!
In Doncaster?
;D
Interesting... What other life forms, fictional or otherwise live in Doncaster? ;D
Is there any human life in Doncaster ?
Quote from: Martyn on 10 April 2010, 07:09:25 PM
Interesting... What other life forms, fictional or otherwise live in Doncaster? ;D
I lived there for about 6 months and saw plenty of Trolls...
FOW i wont touch with a barge pole any more, i wrote the lists for the British airborne for D-1, the mid war briefing and recently the lists for the market garden books. But in their usual wisdom they take hard work and historical accuracy and ignore them so they can sell more toys, which makes me sick.
I personally prefer Battlefront WW2 rules by fire&fury, these can be used with 10-20mm scales and is set at a battalion level BUT can be used for bigger brigade level games which we play at Bovvy
Interesting to hear your comments on FoW Shootist :(. Personally I've pretty much given up on playing FoW, although I sometimes play a game with friends for a change, but to be honest, do not enjoy it. BKC ticks all the boxes for me.
I find the fire and fury rules do the same for me currently writing new scenarios for early war, and planning a mega game at Bovvy in 2013.
Just waiting for the French stuff to be released..<hint>
I've never played F&F but it looks quite good. I think I'll stick with BKC/CWC/FWC for my games as the mechanics are the same for each game which, I find, a big bonus these days.