I'm not sure how many folk bother with GW stuff, but this 'Finecast Revolution' seems to be receiving nothing but negative publicity in the interwebs. I'm not sure how much of that will affect their sales though, as the dedicated GW-fans will just buy regardless I'm guessing. It'll be interesting to see whether they can get the quality control up on these resin figures though, cos at the moment it doesn't seem too great.
(http://www.pbase.com/waaaghgonads/image/135205881/original.jpg)
(http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z174/Dagenhameast/Misscast.jpg)
Ho hum...
Something something something.
No interest to me since, erm...
puberty.
what effect might it have on the rest of the hobby?
Quote from: Sandinista on 06 June 2011, 06:33:24 PM
what effect might it have on the rest of the hobby?
Widespread sniggering & pointing I would have thought ;D
Quote from: nikharwood on 06 June 2011, 06:49:57 PM
Widespread sniggering & pointing I would have thought ;D
That's what GW get from me at the moment, so no change there then :D
With all their products being shifted over to resin, maybe the reduction in demand for metal will bring the prices down for the rest of us. We go through 1.5 tons of metal a year, so they must be shifting 1000's of tonnes of the stuff.
But in reality, who am I kidding, the prices will stay the same. :(
1.5 tonnes of metal into 10mm figs :o
That sounds immense.
From a quick weigh of a pack it would seem a figure weighs 1g. So I think that is 1.5 million figures a year!!!!
I've no interest in GW stuff, but the two things I have picked up is that there's a questionmark over the robustness of these new resin figures, and from what I've seen of prices they've significantly increased in many cases despite the move away from metal, which is really what is driving people up the wall.
Quote from: fred12df on 06 June 2011, 08:20:54 PM
From a quick weigh of a pack it would seem a figure weighs 1g. So I think that is 1.5 million figures a year!!!!
That's quite a few eh?! If everything we sold was figures, I'd think we'd be around half that number. All the tanky tanks will be taking up quite a bit of that 1.5 tonnes though!
Quote from: clibinarium on 06 June 2011, 10:22:50 PM
...from what I've seen of prices they've significantly increased in many cases despite the move away from metal, which is really what is driving people up the wall.
And if they admit their mistake and return to metal, they'll add another price increase on!
i had a look at some of these close up in the GW shop on Sunday. My impressions were;
- Packaging is superb - much better than the old blister packs. It allows a large painted figure front cover on display, with a transparent reverse allowing the figure to be inspected. Like em or loathe 'em GW know how to market stuff
- Unpainted resin figures show up the detail far better than unpainted metal. I suspect if you undercoated both it would be difficult to tell them apart - but on the shelves the resin definitely sells itself. Again top marks for marketing
- The figures i looked at were all fine quality wise but there are lots of reports of poor casting quality out on the net.
- The figures are light - as you would expect. Not a bad thing and with some of the over the top GW sculpting it certainly helps (some of their metal sculpts were totally glue-defying)
- Things like swords, spears are quite tightly 'springy' i can see them snapping easily.
- The figures have a lot of sprue - thats going to be fiddly. And how easy it is to clip out fiddly bits when they are so fragile a worry
I haven't actually tried to assemble one. The reason ? the human figure i was looking at was £14.50. I'm surprised it didnt break when i fell off my chair after glimpsing the price sticker.
I thought the post was going to be about the GW member of staff that bought Pendraken at the weekend :D
Quote from: Maenoferren on 07 June 2011, 09:13:16 PM
I thought the post was going to be about the GW member of staff that bought Pendraken at the weekend :D
*sprays tea all over his monitor*
Ahem.
The finecast stuff was released with a big fanfare, but really i just thought...well...obviously. Given that Forgeworld have been doing GW figures better than GW for years in resin, of course they were eventually going to hop on the bandwagon.
After all, GW haven't actually done anything original in about 25 years...
I suspect however that this move has more to do with their profit warnings than any creative moves, and frankly if resin, as evidenced by Forgeworld and now GW finecast costs so bloody much (£15 for one figure is beyond taking the piss) why bother?
Added to that, one thing GW can't be faulted on is casting quality. If Finecast has introduced that particular bugbear, that's really going to hit there homeground.
As an ex-'Sergeant' (i.e. store manager) for GW i don't have the hate-rage against them so many seem to have, and as they are bringing in the kids to the hobby i think they serve a valuable purpose for the continuity of wargaming. But i do think they've lost their way lately; especially when they brought in Mark Wells at the top. He's a beancounter who really doesn't understand the hobby, nor apparently the value of the GW IP asset. I mean the muppet is a solicitor who worked for Next and Boots. what the hell does he know about 'the hobby'?
First thing he did was to axe Black Industries - the division of GW who were really exploring and developing depth in their IP, and as far as i'm aware he also decimated the store staff, instituting the 'one man one store' policy. - again, fundamentally misunderstanding the strength of those stores as 'hobby centres', requiring propoer staffing. When i was running store i needed 3 staff minimum on a saturday; one till-man, one store walker, one game master, plus me managing the floor. How one man does all that is beyond me. Still, their staffing budget probably dropped so the investors were happy.
Woah...ok. Rambling rant over.
anyway Leon, have you never been tempted to 'go plastic' even for the tanks?
I Kid you not :o :o :o
Interesting example of the serious miscasting on the Finecast minis.
(http://www.totalwargamer.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/finecast-metal-side-by-side.jpg)
(the bottom of the scabbard and the round shoulder guard).
I've been in the GW in Boro a couple of times, but you can barely get a foot in the door before the guy's on top of you, giving it the "What can I help you with?". Puts me off going in, as it's almost intimidating in a way. I don't even get chance to look at the product before I'm being pushed for a sale.
Quote from: Luddite on 07 June 2011, 10:10:18 PM
anyway Leon, have you never been tempted to 'go plastic' even for the tanks?
Nah, far too pricey. It's circa £50k to get the tooling done for one of these boxsets that have swamped the market, and then you've got sculpting costs on top of that. We'd never make that kind of money back unless 10mm really took off. I've got a lot of admiration for guy's like Will at Plastic Soldier though, essentially taking on FoW.
I have looked at getting the World Tank Museum stuff in, but my Japanese ain't great!
Quote from: Maenoferren on 07 June 2011, 10:17:37 PM
I Kid you not :o :o :o
I wondered where they came from, there were a couple of them in GW T-shirts. Is there a store near the show?
I'm a big fan of the Finecast stuff. It means all my son and his friends will be able to assemble their own models while I get on with other stuff.
Many of the GW multipart metals arejust too difficult for inexperienced modellers to get to stay together so I have been spending quite a lot of time recently gluing and pinning GW stuff for fourteen year old Warhammer players.
The resin stuff may be full of air bubbles but it sticks together very easily with superglue.
Quote from: Derek H on 08 June 2011, 07:53:19 AM
Many of the GW multipart metals arejust too difficult for inexperienced modellers to get to stay together so I have been spending quite a lot of time recently gluing and pinning GW stuff for fourteen year old Warhammer players.
Steep learning curve for them then :o
It's one of the problems 'young uns' have nowadays, if its too hard the first time they try it - they give up :( Putting together a model takes skill, but it also takes patience and time. Something else sadly lacking in learning life-skills. Immediate gratification.
to be fair some of the GW sculpts really do present quite a challenge. Sculpting needs to be a combination of art and engineering and sometimes they forget the latter. My son bought some Eldar Swooping Hawks - very attractive figures but with huge metal wings attached by the smallest tab - so small that it really can't be drilled or pinned effectively.
Plus i dread to think of the results if i left my 10 year old son entirely alone iin a room with a lead figure, a drill and a tube of super glue!
Quote from: goat major on 08 June 2011, 08:48:14 AM
Plus i dread to think of the results if i left my 10 year old son entirely alone iin a room with a lead figure, a drill and a tube of super glue!
Trip to casualty ?
Worst figures I ever tried to assemble were minifigs wyverns, close run second Lancashire Games 15mm Chariots, third Orc Gagannts?
Resin is a pain.
IanS
Quote from: goat major on 08 June 2011, 08:48:14 AM
Plus i dread to think of the results if i left my 10 year old son entirely alone iin a room with a lead figure, a drill and a tube of super glue!
Have faith - but only when you've showed him before! :d
I'm saying that as a father of a son who's 10 year old, too. ;)
Young modellers need to be able to build up their skills, starting with models that are reasonably simple to put together and building up to the more difficult ones. .
But Warhammer players need certain figures to make their army competitive so they go out and buy it. Then they put it together and it falls apart five minutes later.
QuoteI wondered where they came from, there were a couple of them in GW T-shirts. Is there a store near the show?
they had a little table at the far end of the room, there is A GW shop down near the central station :)
Quote from: Maenoferren on 09 June 2011, 08:21:34 PM
they had a little table at the far end of the room, there is A GW shop down near the central station :)
Ah right. I completely missed their table though.
My attitude towards GW is nowadays ambivalent ...
There is a bit 'of Schadenfreude' in view of the "finecast-discussion", because of the boast, the price increase and the "we-are-the-hobby attidude". (Latter sometimes reminds me of of religious community ...).
You certainly have to acknowledge the quality of their products and the presence level they managed to achieve for tabletop wargaming.
Contrawise you have to bear in mind the aggressive company policy and you have to see amount of money you have to invest. What i don't like is the making use of the "keep them hungry effect", which is quite perfidious towards youngsters. GW likes to present itself as company of enthusiasts and geeks but acts like selling hamburgers.
I agree with Luddite that GW hasn't produced anything new the days. They still draw breath from the 80's and early 90's. The miniatures miss something originial/playful/kittenish/freakful/new/unique. They rework the old armies over and over and over again ... Interesting topics (Araby, Cathay, Chaos Dwarves...) are left untouched. Instead of inventing/producing something new by themselves, which was once their strength, they buy a license for LotR.
So i watch the way GW goes with somehow nostalgic feelings...
Their table was about the size of the one your cash register was on :) it had a painting table on it and half a dozen figures in various stages of being painted, and from what I remember a couple of the grass mats.
GW.... Meh!!!! No interest, beyond mild agitation and disdain for their sales ethic.
Can`t fault the quality of their wares or their packaging; but lost interest in the childishness of their world creations long ago. I love childishness, I`m Peter Pan remember... but I don`t like childish things dressed up and posing as: sleek, dark, 18 plus, and `grown up` but which are really just mindless propaganda tools to get young people to spend more and more and more and more and more and more money in a mindless “I’m a Sheep BAAAA!†syndrome.
I like the resin casting... but hmmmm I can remember when GW`s sales pitch used to be “the heavier the mini the better, look, just like our range... pooh pooh to plastics†I guess it’s just another GW U-turn. They should go into politics.
Six :D
I simply can't understand the move to resin figures. One of my friends at work has extensive experience of both white metal and resin casting and he is equally perplexed by their change. So sum up:
- Resin is brittle in comparison to white metal.
- Resin deteriorates over time due to the effects of UV.
- Resin aggressively attacks the mould surface, meaning more moulds required. A guide is 15-20 shots before the mould is no good.
- Resin requires either a very good vacuum chamber, but realistically a pressure chamber to compress any bubbles to get clean shots out.
- Given the level of detail on GW models, resin is really not ideal for them.
- You get a relatively high level of wastage with each resin shot compared to white metal.
- White metal does not deteriorate over time.
- White metal is flexible.
- You can get over a 1,000 shots out of a mould.
- Any wastage per shot can be melted down and reused.
I hope this explains why we cannot understand their decision.
Quote from: Steve J on 10 June 2011, 04:08:31 PM
- Resin aggressively attacks the mould surface, meaning more moulds required. A guide is 15-20 shots before the mould is no good.
- Given the level of detail on GW models, resin is really not ideal for them.
- You get a relatively high level of wastage with each resin shot compared to white metal.
- You can get over a 1,000 shots out of a mould.
- Any wastage per shot can be melted down and reused.
These were the main things that surprised me. We've got items like the A7V, which eats moulds like they're going out of fashion. We're lucky to get 10 casts out of that one, before it starts to rip apart. God knows how GW are going to get around that?
And the wastage is another good point. Miscast metal? Chuck it back in the pot, no bother. But with resin, it's all waste. You can grind it down to a powder, and put it back into your resin mix, but that's a) time consuming, b) affects the quality of the next batch.
GW like to follow fashion, and if you peek in on the collectors/painters forums, resin is 'in' because they seem to think you can get finer detail ..... maybe they are right, I don't know.
They probably think the higher price, and shorter runs make the figs even more collectable =)
Cheers,
Kev
Quote from: Steve J on 10 June 2011, 04:08:31 PM
I simply can't understand the move to resin figures.
Spot price of tin (from LME.com)
(http://i615.photobucket.com/albums/tt239/goatmajor/lme-1.jpg)
I 'ditto' the arguement about resin.
Nearly every resin model/kit/figure I have bought (including Pendraken resin) has been riddled with bubble holes, horrible cast lines (which to be fair are easier to remove than lead lines) and lumpy bits in very in-appropriate places....
The higher price of the tin is more than offset by mould deterioration, high resin wastage etc. Resin prices etc have also gone up a lot over the past year or so. Just look at the price increases on the FoW resin tanks etc.
Not a finecast comment but...
My wife has just set up a school club (this is a woman who has NO interest). GW sent a huge box of stuff - about 30-40 paints, loads of brushes, the tools kit, some terrain, Black Library fiction, etc.
If you can get past the 'What WH do you play' you will (at least I always have) found the staff really helpful. Obviously they are GW orientated (in the same way Tesco doesn't sell Asda own brand), but they are always willing to take time for you. I was looking for SYW Russian green, and the guy took the time to try a couple of different pots out for me on an undercoated Chaos Marine. I bought Warmaster on the strength of a Demo game.
Yes the price and the rules churn annoy me. I think they have a problem in that they accept the shops will be loss leaders (the local shop employs just 1 man, and that will need to make £50 a day above the cost on figures sold just to cover his wages, before the overheads of a shop). These act as shop windows for the web site. They act as a central meeting place for the kids - no club to organise, thus meaning no adults have to be nagged into getting a venue etc, and also they probably get more introductions into 'The Hobby' than all the wargame clubs put together get into Historicals - kids take their freinds in.
What our side needs is more events like the Milton Keynes show (I know - there are problems with setting up shows). This is in Middleton Hall right outside John Lewis. It means that there is a contact point for kids to become aware of historicals. People say GW doesn't bring kids into the 'hobby proper' - well how are they going to find out about it?
Hiya Last Hussar,
Yes, I would agree with you, the majority of GW stores have friendly staff (sometimes a bit over friendly as they crowd you with conversation when all you may really want to do is browse quietly), they are usually helpful, and have a knack at getting you to walk out with something you didn’t even know you wanted (that’s why the staff take a three week course in sales management).
I think the gaming world could benefit from a few more pleasant faces in the games shops, and GW certainly are the leaders on that score... when it comes to selling their own brand at least. No, my problem with the company as a whole is not on the ground floor; rather it lies at the executive level where the main decisions are made. I know because I worked for GW for years.
I agree - anything that brings the youth into gaming should, in theory, be a good thing. But unfortunately, statistics show that most kids introduced into the hobby through GW tend to STAY with GW and not deviate... until they leave the hobby altogether and find college, jobs, girls, etc. Few carry on and branch out to other facets of the hobby as a whole. Why would they? Games Workshop is like a Mother, provides all their needs, and keeps them informed through their own White Dwarf magazine. GW`s chief concern is to keep their customer base, which relies heavily on the 12`s to 18`s age bracket; which they achieve by an amazing bit of advertising and media saturation... not to mention their glossy publications , which are shop windows for their latest products.
All in all, I take my hat off to them for having become an amazingly successful business conglomerate. Plus, you can`t fault their wares which truly are second to none in any scale they cover.
Six
Quote from: Last Hussar on 12 June 2011, 12:45:39 AM
What our side needs is more events like the Milton Keynes show (I know - there are problems with setting up shows). This is in Middleton Hall right outside John Lewis. It means that there is a contact point for kids to become aware of historicals. People say GW doesn't bring kids into the 'hobby proper' - well how are they going to find out about it?
We at MK try evry hard with that show you know ;)
Quote from: sixsideddice on 12 June 2011, 11:53:16 AM
... keeps them informed through their own White Dwarf magazine.
I wonder how long that will survive if they're looking to cut costs? An electronic version would be a much cheaper alternative, and in their target demographic, just as accessible.
:-\
They tried cutting their catalogue a couple of years back, with the idea it was going all 'e'. Came back the next year, probably under pressure from parent like us - we buy 2 every Christmas (at £8 a pop!) for the kids. That may seem a lot, but on a Hours used per £ basis, they are probably the most cost effective presents we get.
I nipped into our GW store this past weekend for a snoop about. There was no advertising for the Finecast visible in the front window, and nothing really inside either. The salesguy said the Finecast stuff was "excellent, people online will always knock it." :-\ Unfortunately, of the 3 blisters I had a look at, 1 had a thin layer of flash across the whole sprue, and the other two had bubbles dotted around them. Nothing major, and easily fixable with a bit of time and putty, but not quite the perfect modelling experience they'd like to claim.
there's a podcast called 40k Radio (its on iTunes) which has just done a long interview with Rick Priestly - very interesting on the history of GW, his views on the culture of GW and what he's working on now
Between the english accent and the Skype-robot voice, it' really hard to understand.
Why would an English accent be difficult to understand.
Youes heared me do fullon scouse, as for Jordie......and of course anyone from the West Midlands oul put you to sleep. As foir the esturay, speech impediment.
IanS
Because I watched a lot more of American serials and movies. ;)
Best we re-invade the U.S and bring them back in to the fold then.
Especialy as I've just seen it's 'That day we don't mention' :'( ;D
I see Michele Bachmann has claimed the Proto Marxist Uprising was to free the slaves because the British wouldn't. Has anybody sent her a Biography of Wilberforce, a history of the ACW and a calender?