...is a conflict that I keep coming back to, but have never actually got round to building forces for [nevermind actually gaming it!]...
I know that I'd like to build forces for the winter - and potentially use Black Powder [and/or the FPWarmaster variant] to game this. My question - for the cognoscenti here - is: what's a good starting-point? Either an archetypal battle, or balanced [ish] opposing forces, or a definitive web-source for me to go do my own legwork [sometimes Google is an arse and throws up way too many possibilities!]
I'm thinking of using the FPW starter armies as a, well, starter point...thoughts / comments / ideas mucho appreciatedo 8)
If it is for the winter period of the war, I would recommand to do the Ist bavarian corps (2 inf divisions and a cuirassier brigade), one prussian division (the 17th or 22nd) and a cavalry division (the 4th for example). For the French,
two republican corpses (ie around 6 divisions) and some fancy troops like zouaves pontificaux or volontaires de l'ouest. You can find Nafziger's OBs easily but with a lot of mistakes concerning the name of the generals. For accurate OBs you can go to the French National Library site: www.gallica.bnf.fr and download pdf books like 'Histoire générale de la Guerre Franco-Allemande' from Léonce Rousset in six volumes. It's in French but at the end of each volume there are appendix with all the OBs.
This is a period I have gamed for the last thirty years in three scales. Have now fixed on 10mm as my scale of preference. In theory it should be difficult for the French to win but in practice the Prussians seem to find it difficult to put in an attack because they can't use their small arms before they are in killing distance of the French Chassepots. Patience, and not a little skill, is needed to get the Prussian gunline up close and personal to support the PBI, but again the crews come under deadly Chassepot fire.
The Republican phase is a good perid to do. The previous suggested troops are the ones I am putting together for the Republican phase, Prussians led by the Grand Duke Of Mecklenburg-Schwerin. The Volontaires de Ouest and Zouaves Pontificaux are the same unit. To spice things up you could look at various units of Franc Tireurs, Spahis and French Foreign Legion.
I've tried the following rules over the years:
Warfare in the Industrial Age - divisional level and lots and lots of variable factors
They died for Glory - fun and simple
1870 - fantastic for OOBs etc - I'd go 40mm frontage in 10mm
Piquet - too long to play and can be incredibly frustrating - too much friction
Les Gens Braves - a great little set, although I don't use the recommended base sizes
To the Last Gaiter Button - my rules of preference - enables large scale 10mm battles - a Republican phase set is in preparation
Hi fella,
What follows is a long monologue about my Franco-Prussian experiences... ;)
*Raises hand*
"Hello, my name is Will and I am a Franco-Prussian addict!"
I was NEVER interested in the period until the boys from Timecast invited me on one of their bi-annual trips to visit the battlefields of the Imperial campaign in 2009. I was taken along as the token French fan (after playing the French in their in-house campaign of 1859, they wanted someone incompetent (failed on that account, I won), and a long term fan of the Maximillian/Mexican Fiasco from my time at when I wargamed at Uni in Lancaster & it was my Principles of War Army in 15mm)
We started at Mars-La-Tours, walking up von Bredlow's Death Ride - I was hooked, then I walked the Guards route into Saint-Privat and that was it! Bellemont & Sedan followed...
I on my return bought a Pendraken started pack of each army and Volley & Bayonet and have been hooked since! Now I've returned there, did Worth & stayed in Borny (an embarrassing retail park outside Metz).
Resources:
Osprey's uniform guides are good, (just read the correctins inside the cover of the French book carefully), they have have (so far) neglected the FPW as far as histories go, except for a general history of the war and a campaign volume on Gravelotte-Saint Privat (interesting google searchs for S-P, lead me to an ambient chill-out band, with a very cute lead singer from Switzerland, she's on i-Tunes too), if you want Imperial period, buy and read David Ascoli 'A Day of Battle'.
For the Republican period I'd use 'The Franco-Prussian War, 1870-71: v. 2: After Sedan. Helmuth Von Moltke and the Defeat of the Government of National Defence' by Quintin Barry (available in paperback from Amazon, but if you hunt hard enough you can find signed and numbered first editions of the hardback too). Good descriptions of the battles with well drawn maps and comprehensive orbats at the back. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Franco-Prussian-War-1870-71-Government-National/dp/1906033463/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1306757312&sr=8-2 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Franco-Prussian-War-1870-71-Government-National/dp/1906033463/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1306757312&sr=8-2)
You seriously cannot get better than Trevor Howard's 'Franco-Prussian war' for a general history. http://www.amazon.co.uk/Franco-Prussian-War-German-Invasion-1870-1871/dp/0415266718/ref=pd_sim_b_10 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Franco-Prussian-War-German-Invasion-1870-1871/dp/0415266718/ref=pd_sim_b_10)
Rules:
I would seriously suggest:
Black Powder (you will need to tweak the ranges and artillery)
Volley & Bayonet (does have paperwork if you go over a Corps that is a pain)
To The Last Gaiter Button (Excellent campaign rules for the Imperial period and sieges, not sure about the combat, waiting for the Republican set now).
Starting Battles:
After visiting the battlefields, I went BIG into the Imperial period and bought French II Corps and Prussian III Corps, followed by X Corps. I 'inherited' the Wurrtenberg Division from a friend, and am now looking at French VI Corps, the Hessian and the Prussian Guard Corps. However, this is probably the wrong way to go, but good for Dave & Leon's business account...
If you are going Republican I'd seriously say go for the Campaign of the Loire and aim for the forces at Loigny, which was one of the most balanced encounter game with staggered reserves. Practical Wargamer ran a nice article on The Battle Of Loigny (but for the life of me I can't find it) which involved Bavarians, Prussians & Wurttenbergers, it also has a nice mix of the interesting French Republican forces such as the Papal Zouaves.
You will suffer from awful French moral, but good rifles, the Prussians cannot win unless their artillery is well handled, be prepared for losses!
If you buy a starter pack of Prussians that is a good mix (you will need more medium artillery and officers) of outstanding figures (as we all know), for the French make sure you ask for the right Cavalry for your army, they tend to default to Curraisiers, whose main role appears to have been to die in pointless charges! winter pack is good, main difference is lack of Eagles and nice warm bodies! Winter Prussians in greatcoats are a joy to paint, no piping, but watch for Wurttenberg cap piping, it's a nightmare!
Hope that helps
Mad Lemmey
Massively helpful - thanks chaps, much appreciated 8)
I'm happily tinkering with lists and heading towards the inevitable part-with-cash-and-wait-for-the-postman...unpack-and-realise-I-need-more...rinse and repeat ;D
And if you haven't read it then get a copy of Zola's La Débâcle
Good call...
and remember he was an infantry officer who was hotly engaged against the Hessians along the railway embankment in front of Amenvillies, his account of the fighting is fascinating.
Fistfull of links:
http://users.skynet.be/dodeluc/1870_2.html
http://mlt1870.chez-alice.fr/charge.htm
http://mlt1870.chez-alice.fr/forcesfr.htm
http://mlt1870.chez-alice.fr/forcesde.htm
http://www.loire1870.fr/
http://www.debellum.org/war_of_1870.asp
http://www.debellum.org/chassepot.asp
http://www.debellum.org/the_dreyse_rifle.asp
http://www.debellum.org/pistols.asp
http://www.debellum.org/mitrailleuse.asp
http://www.debellum.org/sarrebourg.asp
http://www.debellum.org/Wissembourg.asp
http://www.debellum.org/Spicheren.asp
http://www.debellum.org/stprivatdiary.asp
http://woerth-en-alsace.com/franc/inder.htm
http://www.napoleon.org/fr/salle_lecture/articles/files/Apres_Sedan_poignante_odyssee1.asp#ancre0
http://www.napoleon.org/en/special_dossier/chalons/homepage/home.html
As a wargamer I don't think you can do better as a start on this period than getting a copy of Bruce Weigle's 1870 Grand Tactical Rules. It is massively more than a rule set. It has a shed load of detailed scenarios, including 4-5 from the Republican period, it has orders of battle, historical information, and a superb bibliography. This is something Bruce does really well, it is not just a list of books, it is a collection of dozens of helpful mini reviews. Whether you like the rules or not, this is a must!
Mollinary
The whole wars of German unification has fascinated me for years but I've never actually got round to gaming it either. Was planning ACW as my quick start BP period but may go for this instead. Will probably start with one of the German states which can be used for and against the Prussians. Does Nafziger have any OOB's at CARL?
NTM
The for and against option is a good one and OOB for the Bavarian and Federal forces of 1866 are available in several works. However, bear in mind that in some cases the uniforms are not the same. For example, the Bavarians fought in a cap in 1866 and the helmet in 1870. Luckily both styles are available from Pendraken. Same applies to the Saxons.
Chad
Quote from: Chad on 02 June 2011, 11:48:14 AM
the Bavarians fought in a cap in 1866 and the helmet in 1870.
I'm aware of differences like that but copromises need to be made somewhere, it's a bit like the bicorne/shako or habit/spencer options with French Napoleonics. I seem to recall the Prussians changed from various facing/strap colours to all red or some such during the 1860's too.
Well the topic below about Saxons in 1866 & 1870 has given a few pointers and has answered my question about Nafziger. Lots has been downloaded for consideration and I think I'm officially distracted from WWII for a while.
http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=2644.0
Height of Prussian helmet changes too between 1866 & 1870 (infacy some units were still in teh old lids, especially the Hessians)...
Quote from: mad lemmey on 02 June 2011, 02:07:48 PM
Height of Prussian helmet changes too between 1866 & 1870
How noticeable is that in 10mm :-\
The 1860 helmet had a squared off peak and a line of brass metal running from the spike to the rear brim. This was not on the 1870 helmet, which also had a curved peak - and yes this does show up in the 10mm figures. The good news is that I received a book on Wissembourg and Woerth today and the cover shows Prussian troops from the same unit wearing both styles.
DP
maciek - thanks for the links - some good reading for the weekend there 8)
Quote from: nikharwood on 03 June 2011, 11:15:57 PM
maciek - thanks for the links - some good reading for the weekend there 8)
Yes, have a look at the paper on the Mitrailleuse. Debunks a lot of nonsense written about the weapon. :-B
I'm moving closer to succumbing to this...Last Hussar's Black Powder FPW thinking hasn't helped to be honest [here: http://lasthussar.wordpress.com/tag/franco-prussian-war/ with links to BP orbats & a nice scenario]...so this is what I think I'll go for [unless anyone wants to give me feedback & tell me better / otherwise etc!]:
I'll be basing these with 4 inf figures to a base, 6 bases per unit & 2 cav figures to a base, 6 figures per unit - most likely with inf & cav onto 25x25 [poss cav onto 30x30] bases.
French:
1870 Winter Army Pack [with Garde cmd; 2 Line greatcoat; 1 Zouave; 1 Chasseurs; 4pdr arty; 1 Hussars]
2 x FPW3 Hussars
2 x FPW8 Line greatcoat
1 x FPW22 Mtd officers
2 x FPW24 Garde Mobile
2 x FPW32 Line greatcoat
1 x FPW33 Zouave in caban
1 x FPW37 Napoleon III etc
This gives:
C-in-C
3 Commanders
10 Line infantry
2 Zouave infantry
1 Chausseurs light infantry
1 Foot artillery
3 Cavalry
1 Horse artillery
Prussian:
1 x 1870 Winter Prussian Army Pack [with 1 Landwehr; 4 Line greatcoat; Krupp arty; 1 Dragoons]
2 x PPW1 Dragoons
1 x PPW6 Mtd Officers
2 x PPW10 Line greatcoat
1 x PPW12 Cmd greatcoat
1 x PPW14 Landwehr greatcoat
1 x PPW15 Krupp 64
1 x PPW29 Wilhelm I etc
This gives:
C-in-C
3 Commanders
10 Line infantry
2 Foot artillery
3 Cavalry
1 Horse artillery
Thoughts, comments etc? :)
A nice mix of troops. I'll be keeping a keen eye on your progress on this Nik. Armies finished by next weekend? ;).
Bearing in mind that Napoleon III was captured at Sedan, Sept. 1870 - but handy to have if you later plan to game some of the imperial phase battles.
DP
Should be a good list.
Are my figures about to get an inferiority complex then?
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 05 June 2011, 03:36:05 PM
Bearing in mind that Napoleon III was captured at Sedan, Sept. 1870
Oops :-[ Did I mention I've not researched this fully yet? ;)
Quote from: Steve J on 05 June 2011, 06:35:07 AM
A nice mix of troops. I'll be keeping a keen eye on your progress on this Nik. Armies finished by next weekend? ;).
Unfortunately not Steve - am lurgied up at moment & work is bonkers too :(
Quote from: mad lemmey on 05 June 2011, 03:52:56 PM
Should be a good list.
Are my figures about to get an inferiority complex then?
Nah 8)
Well now y'all have gone and done it. I bought my first packs of FPW last night. I only bought 1 French line pack and 1 Prussian line pack to start. I have to finish my AWI project first (bought more of those last night as well), but I wanted to see how they paint up and give myself more time to figure out what I need before I make the big purchase.
For rules, I will probably go with a heavily modified version of Might & Reason and mount 12 figures on a 2" x 1" base.
Shecky
I assume that when you refer to rules, you are modifying Might & reason for AWI and not FPW!?
Chad
No, I'm modifying it for FPW. There is already a mod in French on the M&R yahoo group. I'd basically use the same mechanics but just add a few different modifiers and such to make it more like FPW.
I would have thought you would need considerably more than a few modifiers to adapt what is a set of 18th game rules to a late 19th century conflict.
:-\
Chad
To explain a bit further my thoughts about modifying M&R for FPW...
I would keep the command and control concepts essentially the same. I would change the shooting ranges for infantry and artillery and also make artillery stronger. I'm also thinking about introducing a morale mechanism as I prefer to see units fall back and regroup instead of fight to the last strength point and disappear. The basic units would be regiments so a division would normally have 4 units plus support. I also have to figure out a way to deal with battalion sized jagers and chasseurs.
So to be honest, the final product may not look anything like M&R. :)
Shecky
I see where you're coming from, but with so many sets geared to the period it seems a lot of work to modify a set that is basically so far away from the late 19C in concept.
Chad
As a Brigade level game (brigades being the smallest tactical unit) i've always felt that with the right modifications Might and Reason would lend itself to most horse and musket periods including the Franco Prussian war. Might and Treason (i think thats its name) was an ACW variant that looked good.
Cheers,
Andy
I'm really finding myself increasingly unhappy with the existing FPW rules -- the more I learn about the conflict the less it seems like either the American Civil War or colonials, which are the two main baselines for 1870 rules. I am working (slowly) on my own project for large battles http://mlt6x4rules.blogspot.com/ and I may well do the same for the small tactics end of the equation although first I plan to see what I can do using regimental fire and fury as a base.
The problem with small scale games is that everything is in artillery range at the start of the game and, depending how much artillery is present, the game can become dominated by it.
I am intending to give Zouave II a run through.
Chad
We use BP in cm scale.
This means even the longest ranged field artillery has a range of 60cm, most Prussian stuff is 48cm, which work nicely on a 6' by 4' table.
It also means two or three turns under fire before closing, quite historic.
Quote from: Chad on 08 August 2011, 02:20:55 PM
The problem with small scale games is that everything is in artillery range at the start of the game and, depending how much artillery is present, the game can become dominated by it.
Well, that's not unrealistic. In small scale, however, it is easier to represent dead ground and reward its use. And for really small scale (ambush, reconnaissance and screen skirmishes, that sort of things) there would frequently be no or few guns.
Quote from: Chad on 08 August 2011, 02:20:55 PM
I am intending to give Zouave II a run through.
Let us know how it works -- I had thought it was middling high level - stand = 300 men or so per stand.
Alternatively have a look at Field of Battle; I've posted our 1866 house rules (FOB with tweaks) on the FOB bit of the Piquet Yahoo Group site here; http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Piquet/
you will need to sign up to the group then go here http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/Piquet/files/Field%20of%20Battle/ for the house rules and the custom cards; I'm hoping to do house rules for 1870 before Christmas. For me FOB is perfect for this period, have a look and see what you think.
Cam/Lentulus
Have tried FOB and quite enjoyed it. Downloaded the cards from the group site.
Zouave II appealed to me as well. It will be the last set I buy for the period. I am not sure when I will be trying them out, but will give a review when I have.
Next game is Marlburian using BP, getting scenario ready for a local show. About 600 figures per side.
Cheers
Chad
If anyone would be interested I will post an overview of the Zouave II rules on the rules section at the weekend.
Chad
Hi Chad.
I hade a game with Zoave when they first came out. Very interesting rule set with great ideas. Very different from other games which meant it was a bit confusing for the players but I think you'd get used to it pretty quickly. Have got version 2 buy not tried them yet. The Rondel looks intriguing.
I'd be very interested in your views.
Cheers,
Andy
Madness has finally set in. I have now convinced an equally unhinged friend to join me (actually to do most of the work!) in preparing a set of rules which might allow me to use my Pendraken FPW figures for a new scale of game. I have done and reported on Gravelotte St Privat on a 1:60 man scale, but there are few other battles of that scale to do. So the idea is to look at doing a divisonal scale game on a 1:10 man scale, and 1" = 25yards. A Prussian battalion would be up to 100 figures, which would allow company scale manouevres, and we would concentrate on a very different level of command, but still do a game with lots of figures and a number of players. It might be some 1200-1500 figures a side, should look the bizz, and be very, very, different. I'll let you know if it proves to have legs!
Mollinary
That's going to look amazing! Let me know how it goes! :o
Quote from: mollinary on 24 August 2011, 01:27:47 PM
Madness has finally set in. I have now convinced an equally unhinged friend to join me (actually to do most of the work!) in preparing a set of rules which might allow me to use my Pendraken FPW figures for a new scale of game. I have done and reported on Gravelotte St Privat on a 1:60 man scale, but there are few other battles of that scale to do. So the idea is to look at doing a divisonal scale game on a 1:10 man scale, and 1" = 25yards. A Prussian battalion would be up to 100 figures, which would allow company scale manouevres, and we would concentrate on a very different level of command, but still do a game with lots of figures and a number of players. It might be some 1200-1500 figures a side, should look the bizz, and be very, very, different. I'll let you know if it proves to have legs!
As Mad Lemmey says, keep us updated on that one! 8)
Quote from: mollinary on 24 August 2011, 01:27:47 PM
Madness has finally set in. I have now convinced an equally unhinged friend to join me (actually to do most of the work!) in preparing a set of rules which might allow me to use my Pendraken FPW figures for a new scale of game. I have done and reported on Gravelotte St Privat on a 1:60 man scale, but there are few other battles of that scale to do. So the idea is to look at doing a divisonal scale game on a 1:10 man scale, and 1" = 25yards. A Prussian battalion would be up to 100 figures, which would allow company scale manouevres, and we would concentrate on a very different level of command, but still do a game with lots of figures and a number of players. It might be some 1200-1500 figures a side, should look the bizz, and be very, very, different. I'll let you know if it proves to have legs!
Mollinary
Hey Mollinary, how was your FPW tour, any photos, good stories?
Quote from: cameronian on 24 August 2011, 08:26:20 PM
Hey Mollinary, how was your FPW tour, any photos, good stories?
Amazing how once you've seen the battlefields it changes your view and your desire to buy the armies!
It changes from hmm... Nice, might do that, to: YES GIVE ME MORE NOW!
Quote from: mollinary on 24 August 2011, 01:27:47 PM
It might be some 1200-1500 figures a side, should look the bizz, and be very, very, different. I'll let you know if it proves to have legs!
Mollinary
Wow - this is going to be impressive!
Mind you, I think it
will have legs: somewhere between 2400 - 3000 a side by your reckoning ;) :P ;D
Quote from: mollinary on 24 August 2011, 01:27:47 PM
Madness has finally set in. I have now convinced an equally unhinged friend to join me (actually to do most of the work!) in preparing a set of rules which might allow me to use my Pendraken FPW figures for a new scale of game. I have done and reported on Gravelotte St Privat on a 1:60 man scale, but there are few other battles of that scale to do. So the idea is to look at doing a divisonal scale game on a 1:10 man scale, and 1" = 25yards. A Prussian battalion would be up to 100 figures, which would allow company scale manouevres, and we would concentrate on a very different level of command, but still do a game with lots of figures and a number of players. It might be some 1200-1500 figures a side, should look the bizz, and be very, very, different. I'll let you know if it proves to have legs!
Mollinary
There was an article in
Wargames Illustrated a few years ago by a guy who fielded 200-strong battalions in 6mm for, I think, SYW. The pictures were stunning, which is why I remember it. So, go for it, Molinary. We're all agog. :-bd
What is also great with this scale is that you can play many kind of very interesting small actions like scooting, assault of a camp by night, crossing, etc... and that the company level is more accurate, being the basic fighting formation.
Here are some photos taken around Metz in (http://i1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/TriptoMetzwithNickandMike018.jpg)
Yes, well there's one photo of Stiring Wendel from the Spicheren heights. I'll have another go and see if I can supply a link to the actual album on http://s1101.photobucket.com/albums/g440/dourpuritan/Visit%20to%20FPW%20battlefields/
Great photos - brings back happy and hungover memories of my tours... ;D
Quote from: nikharwood on 31 May 2011, 11:59:36 PM
I'm happily tinkering with lists and heading towards the inevitable part-with-cash-and-wait-for-the-postman...unpack-and-realise-I-need-more...rinse and repeat ;D
This.
It keeps me from quitting my job, selling the house to a friendly banker and the wife & kids to an Arab, retiring to a huge derelict farm with oodles of space and then buying the whole god**** Pendraken collection.
The three certainties in life: death, taxes and not-enough-Pendraken 8)
Cheers,
Aart
Quote from: Aart Brouwer on 25 August 2011, 02:55:10 PM
The three certainties in life: death, taxes and not-enough-Pendraken 8)
:D :-bd
Takes me back. I did the FPW battlefields with Richard Holmes in 2004, sigh.
Now that would have been a battlefield tour worth being on. I heard him speak on leadership when I was at Staff College in 2008 and he was a very inspirational speaker, sadly missed.
Ah yes. Kept in touch after the tour, exchanged literature/references, always got a hand written thankyou. Such a gentleman.