Hi chaps,
OK, so at our club we've just kicked off a sizable campaign speculatively fighting Hitler's Directive No. 16 'Betriebsseelöwe' (Operation Sealion).
We're using GHQ rules and of course 10mm Pendraken minis.
So far we've played the battles of the first few hours and in our campaign:
- The Germans have secured three beach heads.
They failed to secure a fourth, but have camped on the sands...unknown to them the British defenders, their flanks now exposed are following their general orders to withdraw inland.
Their Fallschirmjaegers secured the Hawkinge airfield after some serious hard fighting where the British garrison inflicted heavy losses before being overrun and withdrawing...
OK...stop rambling...so, i thought i'd therefore ask the age old wargamer question...
Would Operation Sealion ever have been successful for the Germans?
What would have to have happened for them to do so?
Of course the famous Sandhurst wargame in the 1970's concluded the Germans had no chance, but did they?It'll be interesting to see how our campaign pans out. I'm playing the British senior commander and it looks pretty grim for us at the moment!
I'll be interested to hear how you get on ......
In reality, the Germans problem was getting across the channel, they didn't really have anything seaworth to transport AFVs etc. If they had overcome that, and freed up troops by not invading Russia, then things could have turned out very differently.
Cheers,
Kev
I agree with Squirrel (not something I ever thought I would have to say ;D), the main problem was crossing the channel. Assuming that they had achieved air superiority the only problem for them would have been the Royal Navy. And, as the naval battles in the Pacific showed, air power might have seen to that.
Although Britain and it's Commonwealth had an industrial powerhouse that far outstripped Germany, in the early part of the war it wasn't on a war footing. After Dunkirk and the equipment that was lost, times were so bad that they were even contemplating using poison gas on the beaches. The key for the Germans was to defeat the RAF and quickly get across before the industry of the Commonwealth picked up and rearmed the British Army (don't forget lend lease wasn't signed until March 1941 so there was no help from the States with military equipment at that time). With no heavy equipment and lack of experienced troops the British High Command were counting on pluck and terrain (specifically the anti-tank obstacle which is Romney Marsh amongst others) to hold off the German advance.
So in answer to your questions
Would Operation Sealion ever have been successful for the Germans?
Yes. But only if the planning right. They had an army with the confidence brought on by so many victories. The one real problem they had was the ad hoc nature of their sea transport. If that could have been overcome and they got that army landed and captured a port, it would have been very hard to kick them off.
What would have to have happened for them to do so?
The most important thing was to gain air superiority. Defeat the Royal Navy through air power and U-Boats. Do it early enough so that the British Army didn't have enough time to rearm and reorganize. And when the army lands, quickly capture a port so that supplies can get in (and, indeed, an airfield or two).
Of course the famous Sandhurst wargame in the 1970's concluded the Germans had no chance, but did they?
The Sandhurst Wargame assumed that the Luftwaffe had not gained air superiority, which was odd. Because that was one of the things that Hitler wanted before landing would take place. Hence the reason for the 'Battle of Britain'.
If air superiority was gained then it would have negated the danger the Royal Navy was to the beach heads.
Where it goes from there is anyone's guess. As long as the Germans were contained in the South East I don't think we would have just collapsed, but we would have to have some luck, like an attack on Russia or the US having a change of heart.
Quote from: Luddite on 12 May 2011, 10:19:22 AM
OK...stop rambling...so, i thought i'd therefore ask the age old wargamer question...
Would Operation Sealion ever have been successful for the Germans?
What would have to have happened for them to do so?
Of course the famous Sandhurst wargame in the 1970's concluded the Germans had no chance, but did they?
Actually, Luddite,
we are relying on you to tell
us. Just remember - they don't like it up 'em! ;)
Quote from: Leveller Mutineer on 12 May 2011, 04:12:48 PM
I agree with Squirrel (not something I ever thought I would have to say ;D)
8)
;D :D
Cheers,
Kev
Quote from: Hertsblue on 12 May 2011, 05:25:38 PM
Actually, Luddite, we are relying on you to tell us. Just remember - they don't like it up 'em! ;)
Hehe...i'll keep you informed.
The initial landings went almost unhindered for the Germans, with most of the initiial beach assaults coming in without too much trouble. they only struggled on one beach and lost a couple of battalions before camping on the sands when the second wave failed and the commanders called off the third wave.
The one air landing so far, took a royal pounding but did successfully capture the Hawkinge airfield after a few hours of hard fighting.
We're still in the set of battles surrounding the initial 'beach' phase though so its anybody's guess as to how it'll pan out.
I'm commanding the British and confusion reigns at the moment...we're desperate to get the communications into GHQ so we can plan how to react. There's already a difference of opinion over the basic strategy - mirroring the historical reality of the differences the Germans had about how to react to D-Day! Jolly fun.
Had we not forgot to bring a camera at the first games, there might have been some pictures to post up. I believe there were a few mobiles snapping away but i've not see the restuls yet.
That said, our member BrotherCrow did a bloody Sterling job painting up masses of Pendraken minis in about a week to get things on the table. I'm sure a few of the infantry were still wet! :D
I think Hitler made enough mistakes, that it could have been very different had he not. I'm not so familiar with the British beaches, would the Germans have a lot of choice where to initiate the landing? Had Hitler focused on the West, he would definitely have had the manpower to pull it off. Good troops, with a year of victories up their belt, that could have gotten nasty.
As far as landing crafts are concerned, in 1940 Germany would have been able to crank up the production, after all the Americans had to as well in 1943, they had nowhere near enough landing crafts before Higgins' contribution.
For anyone interested in 'Operation Sealion' the book "Invasion - German Invasion of England July 1940" by Kenneth Macksey is a great read. I really must dig it out and read it again.
Cheers,
Kev
I wonder if this will end up anything like the discussion on the FOW website!! ;D
This is one campaign that I have always wanted a go at....but to throw some fuel on the fire...so to speak...!(or fougasse to be more topical)
I think the biggest problem that the germans would have had (apart from the lack of air superiority, the Royal Navy sinking the barges and just about everything that could fly being thrown at them!) is the logistical nightmare of the simply getting the troops and supplies ashore in the first place.
I read somewhere that the Germans intended to requisition just about all the river barges, which would have caused major problems in production and distibution.
Didn't the Germans lose over a lot of transport aircraft in Holland as wel, I've seen numbers up to 280 JU-52s lostl
If the facts get tweaked a bit then of course the Germans could have invaded and won, but as things were in 1940 they couldn't have in June/July and by September the British had made up the losses in equipment!
There have been many similar conversations over at the FOW forum, which I have roundly ignored due to some of the people in those conversations not having a clue...
:P
Part of the problem (that everyone ignores) for the germans was their lack of navel/naval support! Their fleet didn't have anything bigger than the Scharnhorst/Grishneau(sic) class, and these, plus a large proportion of the destroyer fleet had taken damage in and around Narvik,and were out of operation for six months udergoing repairs. Meaning that unless the Luftwaffe could deal with the Royal Navy (and Scarpa had more AA than anywhere else in Britain, apart from the aluminium plant in Fort William and London), they were in trouble. Scarpa was only 12 hours steaming away from any invasion site, if the fleet had got involved it would have chewed lumps out of any transports the Germans had...
my Gradad always said he was looking forwards to that, but it never happened!
Quote from: freddy326 on 16 May 2011, 08:02:55 AM
Didn't the Germans lose over a lot of transport aircraft in Holland as wel, I've seen numbers up to 280 JU-52s lostl
That's right, they did lose a lot of transport, it's 280 lost on a total of 430 used! It was a major setback, and they never made good these losses in the entire war.
Quote from: mad lemmey on 16 May 2011, 08:22:35 AM
There have been many similar conversations over at the FOW forum, which I have roundly ignored due to some of the people in those conversations not having a clue...
:P
Very wise!! That turned into a rant by people who took themselves far too seriously, and just didn't understand that the point of 'what ifs?' is to have a bit of fun :D
Of course the Germans had nothing to take on the Royal Navy, but if the British fleet had tried to enter a hostile English Channel, then small atack craft and the Luftwaffa would have been a problem.
The key was that the Germans needed to act imediately after Dunkirk, whist England was at it's weakest, and the Jerries were strong and confident.
Cheers,
Kev
Kev in 1940 the Lufftwaffe couldn't sink heavilly armoured ships, as they lacked the armour pericing bombs.
IanS
Quote from: ianrs54 on 16 May 2011, 11:15:40 AM
Kev in 1940 the Lufftwaffe couldn't sink heavilly armoured ships, as they lacked the armour pericing bombs.
Were there any squadrons equipped with/trained for torpedo bombing? I think some of the bomber types could operate in this role?
Quote from: ianrs54 on 16 May 2011, 11:15:40 AM
Kev in 1940 the Lufftwaffe couldn't sink heavilly armoured ships, as they lacked the armour pericing bombs.
IanS
True (and I may be talking out of me a**e as naval warfare isn't my strong point) but would they have needed to? As long as the Luftwaffe could take out destroyers, the big british ships would have been sitting ducks for u-boats and torpedo boats in the confines of the channel.
As I recall, the British fleets never operated inthe channel until the allies had full air superiority later in the war for that reason?
Happy to be told otherwise by someone with beter knowledge than me though!
Cheers,
Kev
Quote from: Squirrel on 16 May 2011, 12:33:29 PM
As I recall, the British fleets never operated inthe channel until the allies had full air superiority later in the war for that reason?
Happy to be told otherwise by someone with beter knowledge than me though!
Cheers,
Kev
Also, they were too busy escorting convoys into places like Liverpool!
other than (maybe) Dieppe and Operation Overlord, did the RN capital ships ever operate offensively in the Channel?
The Luftwaffe didn't really have that much success against the destroyers at Dunkirk, for all the sorties and bomb used, they sunk something like 6 and damaged 19 over 10 days and they only managed to hit something like 1 in 100 ships of the channel convoys. Assuming that a fair percentage of these weren't even moving, then attacking a fast moving destroyer with lots of sea room to maneuvre in will be more difficult.
I think there were also several hundred small craft in harbours along the South Coast that were to be used in the event of an invasion and also RN submarines.
I have no trouble with a 'What-if' scenario, I'm a wargamer after all and I'm determined to do a Sealion campaign at some stage!!
I think in the 'what if' section should also include the French fleet.
What if it was not sunk in july? Maybe it would have gone to American waters like it was supposed to :'( =). Thus free to aid the British in stopping any invasion.
Or maybe if falls in to German hands and thus enables a German invasion.
It was far from being a lame duck at that time. 4 battleships and 6 destroyers, on either side was not to be sniffed at!
Bon chance ;)
I think with an enemy invasion fleet in the channel then the RN would have been thrown in. At that point there would have been little reason to preserve the fleet for later use, which is one reason why it wasn't risked in the channel earlier.
The German invasion barges were mainly river vessels, I have heard it suggested that Destroyers running fast among them would have swamped them just with their wash.
The Battle of Britan indicated that the Germans wouldn't risk everything to invade britain. Whereas I suspect that the British would have thrown everything in.
There's a FoW forum? :o
I'm surprised they even know what Operation Sealion was...too busy arguing whether the German power armour and jet packs are worth the points... ;)
Quote from: Luddite on 16 May 2011, 06:13:25 PM
I'm surprised they even know what Operation Sealion was...too busy arguing whether the German power armour and jet packs are worth the points... ;)
Of course they are! Who needs invasion barges when you have jet packs 8)
Cheers,
Kev
Quote from: Luddite on 12 May 2011, 08:25:07 PM
The initial landings went almost unhindered for the Germans, with most of the initiial beach assaults coming in without too much trouble. they only struggled on one beach and lost a couple of battalions before camping on the sands when the second wave failed and the commanders called off the third wave.
I think that's a slightly pessimistic viewpoint! :-\ Given the light forces we had on the beaches, I'm surprised we stopped them on even one! With the forces they assaulted with, there was no question they were going to succeed, but they took pretty heavy casualties across the board - and most of our troops withdrew to fight on...
Oh, and I do have a number of photos (limited since I was busy most of the time during the games! :)). I was waiting to see if they are needed for the official write-up...
Talking of which, have you submitted your AAR yet? :D
Yep, AAR went to the umpire after week 2 completed the defence of the airfield.
You're right though Jim, we were facing certain loss of the beaches. IT wasn't IF we lost, but how long we could hold and how much we could kill. You're right we did a fair job, but on most of the landings Jerry lost 3:1 or fewer - good odds for the Germans.
Still, as you say we've managed to get most of our troops out intact. Can't wait to see what happens next!
By the the way chaps, Jim & i have a debate about British tactics re: resisting the Germans. So i wonder what your thoughts are on the following matter?
Should the British try to hold Dover or withdraw from the coast completely?
What would be the effect of giving the Germans a free run at a major port?
:-\
Quote from: Luddite on 17 May 2011, 08:14:10 PM
Should the British try to hold Dover or withdraw from the coast completely?
What would be the effect of giving the Germans a free run at a major port?
:-\
It would allow them to offload heavy equipment (i.e. panzers) that much more quickly. You need specialised vessels to land vehicles over the beaches. This, of course pre-supposes that the RN didn't or couldn't interfere.
Also, Dover Castle was, or would soon become, HQ for the local naval forces and a communications centre for most of that part of the world.
EDIT: Quote box fixed.
withdraw from the coast
but then I`m biased as I`m one of the german players.
Jim
A few points from memory of a book I was reading last night:
- The Home Fleet was to be kept at Scapa Flo. To risky to try and manouvre in the Channel. Also engaged in trying to keep convoy routes open and dealing with the French Fleet.
- Destroyers withdrawn to Portsmouth after some Jagdgeswcwader strikes on one or two. Dover Straits effectively open.
- British had one depleted infantry division covering the Dover area. These to be withdrawn after token resistance to the GHQ line. Most units up along the East Anglian coast.
Interesting reading with regards to this thread. I'll post the name of the book tonight if required.
Interesting thread. As mentioned the Germans were intending to cross using flat bottomed Rhine barges, not really suitable for the Channel. They would have lost a few due to weather without any input from the RN.
Intersting forum here dealing with Sealion. http://www.historum.com/speculative-history/6085-operation-sealion-all-far-fetched-5.html (http://www.historum.com/speculative-history/6085-operation-sealion-all-far-fetched-5.html)
In particular:
QuoteI have only just come across this site, and have been fascinated by the references to the German Fleet. In fact, the German fleet in the Summer of 1940, far from including three battleships, actually consisted of one heavy cruiser with defective engines (Hipper), two 6 inch cruisers (Nurnberg & Koln), and an old training cruiser (Emden), together with six or seven destroyers.
Similarly, the Germans did not have access to train ferries or anything similar, but were dependant upon Rhine barges towed by trawlers to transport their invasion force. To protect this force, they had the half dozen destroyers and a few torpedo boats, as the cruisers were to operate in the North Sea, carrying out an operation intended to persuade the British that an assault on the north east coast, or even Scotland, was planned.
To deal with the virtually unprotected sealion barges, the Royal Navy had some sixty destroyers and cruisers between Plymouth & Harwich. The Home fleet itself ( Hood, Rodney, Nelson, 3 light cruisers and 17 destroyers) was largely based at Rosyth, with Repulse, Furious, two 8 inch cruisers, 2 light cruisers and 7 destroyers at Scapa Flow. It was not intended that the heavy ships should operate in the Channel unless any German heavy ships were detected in or approaching the area ( at the time, of course, the Admiralty were not fully aware of exactly how weak the Kriegsmarine was), because the destroyer and cruiser forces based in the south were deemed more than capable of dealing with the invasion.
The heavy guns on the French coast which it was intended would protect the flanks of the sealion convoys were useless; during the whole of the war not one allied ship was hit by them, and the minefields would have been swept by the Royal Navy as quickly as the Germans could lay them.
Contrary to the popular myth, the Luftwaffe was not a major threat to the Royal Navy in 1940. Of 38 RN destroyers at Dunkirk, in restricted waters and unable to operate at speed, only four were sunk by aircraft. In any case, the invasion plan called for a night crossing, when aircraft were useless. Torpedo aircraft might have threatened the larger RN warships, but the Luftwaffe didn't have any.
In short, 'Operation Sealion; was it all that far fetched?' Absolutely, it was never remotely possible, not because of the Battle of Britain, but because of the Royal Navy. The best recent book on the subject, by far, is 'Hitler's Armada' published by Pen & Sword, and I would urge anyone who really wants to know the plain unvarnished truth to get hold of a copy.
I also recall a programme on TV last year which mentioned that Bomber Command raids on the invasion ports were a factor in delaying the invasion.
In addition, think of the tight window Overlord had to operate in 4 years later, with more specialised equipment than the Germans had available and I think chances of success become even slimmer.