Hi guys,
With the rising costs of tin etc currently experienced worldwide, it got me thinking. How does this affect the long term future of Pendraken as well as other figure manufacturers? I understand GW are rethinking there metal figure strategy possibly in favour of resin. Are things looking bleak for the hobby or will it become a renaissance for us all? What do you think?
I've been wondering about this too. I'd say larger scales would be in trouble first though. 10mm is still a very economic way to collect figures.
Am I right in assuming that resin is a non starter for stuff below 28mm?
I remember when Heartbreaker (think that was their name) Release a range of 10mm fantasy minis in plastic for their soon to be released mass battle game for Chronopia, but GW released Warmaster first and Heartbreaker (?) dropped their release. However, there were some 10mm plastice out in the world for a few brief moments and they looked awesome.
I think 10mm and 6mm will survive the metal crunch for a while. I think converting to plastic equipment to do 10mm or smaller is still too expensive.
:-\
Quote from: Blaker on 09 April 2011, 07:21:48 PM
I think 10mm and 6mm will survive the metal crunch for a while. I think converting to plastic equipment to do 10mm or smaller is still too expensive.
:-\
Yep, exactly. Resin woyuld be far too slow for mass production. Plastic seems to be the way forward eventually, although small figures just wouldn't have the weight and "heft" of their metal bretheren. Besides, metal price fluctuations tend to be temporary, and even when they are not people adjust. By rights motorists should have given up on petrol long ago, but have they?
Everyone's feeling the pinch at the moment, with the metal around 50% up on this time last year. I don't know if the prices will be dropping anytime soon either, as the Chinese are still stockpiling it as far as I know.
As to who would struggle first, it's a double edged sword. 28mm manufacturer's are in a better position initially, as there is a much greater profit margin in 28's. But then as those bigger figures get more expensive to the customer, folk will in theory start looking to the smaller scales for their gaming, so long-term, I'd hope that 10mm would have a bright future. We're also in a slightly stronger position as everything in the catalogue is manufactured by us, so no contract casting fees, no mould making bills, etc.
Plastic could be an option, but with initial costs for a box of plastics around the £50k mark, it's not something many people would have the funds to do. Resin wouldn't be feasible at this scale either.
It's a bit of a nightmare all-round really - but you still won't catch me buying resins / plastics where I can get metals...and, with my only point-of-reference for plastic 10mms being BoFA, they're not a patch on metals...
As long as the plastic 10mm figs don't come in 28 fiddly pieces the need to be glued together...
Bought 4 boxes of 28mm Perry WotR figs last year and lost the will to live having to glue the damned things together. Didn't even finish the first box before giving up...
Long live metal figures i say. You keep casting 'em and i'll keep buying 'em. m/
Resin costs have gone up as well. They deteriorate moulds very, very quickly, with say twenty shots out of a mould being good. They are also relatively slow to turn around. At smaller scales, say 15mm and below, they would be far too brittle with rifles and legs breaking very easily.
As for plastics, dead easy to do in any scale, as long as you have the upfront investment for tooling and then a gauranteed flow of orders, otherwise they would not be commercially viable. Pose wise they would be limited unless with seperate arms and legs etc or went for very expensive tooling with mulit-action cores etc.
While metal costs may be going up affecting the per figure cost directly. There are a lot of other factors in the total costs not least the massive cost of metal moulds for plastic figures.
There are already 10mm plastic figures available - the Battle of 5 Armies from GW. This is a big box of plastic goodies. The figures all come in strips. Which helps with painting speed as you really only have 2 sides of the figure to paint. They also rank up very tightly compared to single based figures. Most of the infantry is nice but the cavalry do suffer from blockiness where undercuts should be.
Luddite - I thought the Perry 28mm plastics were quick and easy to put together - but before them I had tried some Tamiyia 1/48th figures which really do have a lot of fiddly bits!
although I think that metal suits 6 and 10mm very well, the level of detail that GW managed to achieve on their Epic ranges were pretty good
Doesn't plastic come from oil? That seems to be going up as well! >:(
Someone is bound to invent some kind of cow dung polypropylene polymer strand that we can make miniatures out of I bet! :D
Quote from: Pruneau on 10 April 2011, 07:41:45 PM
Someone is bound to invent some kind of cow dung polypropylene polymer strand that we can make miniatures out of I bet! :D
At least I'll feel better when somone tells me my paint jobs look like sh*t if they do that
;D
Anyone remember the hair roller miniatures?
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 10 April 2011, 09:59:48 PM
Anyone remember the hair roller miniatures?
yep I do :D
I even knicked my Mum's and made an American civil war army :D :D :D
Nice one!
Yes - they were pretty dire =)
Ok, but they did effectively fill a few pages of an early issue of Miniature Wargames ;D
With retirement not far away, I can no longer think of buying 28mm, despite some of the splendid new models. My wargame colleague and I were discussing it last weekend and both wish we were younger, because the present range of 6mm and 10mm figures is growing and is size for size of at least as good quality modelling. For me the depth of my pocket (or lack of it) determines the prices I can afford and therefore the figures I can by. So one pack of 30 figures from Pendraken at £3-50 = 3 x 28mm. No brainer for me.
Chad
Quote from: Dour Puritan on 11 April 2011, 08:59:16 PM
Ok, but they did effectively fill a few pages of an early issue of Miniature Wargames ;D
I've probably still got it squirreled away somewhere.
Quote from: Chad on 12 April 2011, 08:01:17 AM
With retirement not far away, I can no longer think of buying 28mm,
Chad
Yeah, me too. Mind you, I sold my last 25/28mm in 1978 so I've been preparing for a long time :D
Yes, and I'm retired as of Sept.1st so I've been stockpiling. Although money will be tighter painting skills have improved with age (as have the paints). 7 boxes of plastic Perry WOR, plus sundry guns, personalities and cavalry. Should keep me happy for a while. Similarly Warlord ECW stuff, not to mention my 10mm medievals, French, Prussian and Austrian armies, SYW Prussians and a friend's Britannic Majesty's Army in North Germany. Not to mention a shed load of 15mm ACW to complete for REGTal Fire and Fury. I envisage the brush having to be prised from my fingers at some unspecified date in the future.
DP
I've got 10mm WSS to finish. 10mm 1859/70 figures in 'stock'. 10mm LoA to buy. 10mm Napoleonics 1805-07 building. 15mm French Revolution part painted and my last few 28mm to finish. Not sure what to do in 2012! :>)
Chad
World War One Eastern Front looks interesting Chad.
Very interesting and thought provoking response from you all. Many thanks.
As a follow up to this thread I was wondering how many of us, if metal figures were to become too expensive or unavailable, would be prepared to have a go at designing and casting their own figures (with the surplus figures they have around).
Perhaps just take up Chess instead?? :o :o :o
My modelling capabilities are zero (or less)!! I barely get by with a reasonable paint job.
Puritan - You misunderstand. With the amount I have to paint and the time I have available, it will take me well into 2012 to complete them all. :'(
Chad
Quote from: tarkus29 on 14 April 2011, 10:00:03 AM
As a follow up to this thread I was wondering how many of us, if metal figures were to become too expensive or unavailable, would be prepared to have a go at designing and casting their own figures (with the surplus figures they have around).
I have done exactly that in the past. It's surprising how many wargaming buddies are prepared to contribute superannuated figures to the melting pot. It's making the masters that is the drawback. ~X(
I have a big bag of old 28 mm metal that I could ad to the melting pot (makes David Brent handmove)
I tried casting my own as a kid. They looked absolutely s**t!
DP
It's all down to the master. You can't cast a great figure out of a rubbish master. If you can find someone who can sculpt lock him (or her) in the coal-shed until they come up with a great master :d
Quote from: Pruneau on 10 April 2011, 07:41:45 PM
Someone is bound to invent some kind of cow dung polypropylene polymer strand that we can make miniatures out of I bet! :D
We'll call them Gandhis! :P
Anyway, youre on the right track here mate. An elderly gentleman and very respected colleague of mine in the media sent me a gift of a beautiful pre-WWII German 30mm model soldier firing a heavy machine gun. I mean, the model itself was pre-1940 German as well as the soldier. It was made from some sort of hardened cardbox material, very cleverly done, it's still intact and looking good after all those years.
Now obviously 10mm couldn't be done in that material because it is too crude, but my point (and yours, I assume) is if we have to think out of the tin box we might as well be radical.
Cheers,
Aart