I've had some FPW rules sat on one side for a while now, that I'd like to get published or available as a download, so I'm looking for someone to playtest them for me? Anyone interested?
EDIT: Rules added as a download:
http://www.pendraken.co.uk/FileBin/Pendraken FPW rules.doc
(http://www.pendraken.co.uk/FileBin/Pendraken FPW rules.doc)
I'd be happy to help Dave - it's a period I've always wanted to get into...this might be a good excuse 8)
Sunjester is your man- I've linked this for him.
Cheers, I'll let Dave know.
I'd certainly be up for this.
I'd be up for this too - have a sshedload of FPW to paint and this might be the inspiration I need!
I've studied the war a fair bit, and would enjoy trying out a novel rules set. What sort of level of game -- groundscale, intended size of battle, that sort of thing?
Who is this Dave bloke anyway- is he some noob? He's only got 5 posts! :D :D :D
I'll give them a go
Alan
I've
got
10
posts
now!
;D Nice Dave, nice 8)
I'm telling the admin.
Haha, at least he's hit double figures now!
Dave,
I'd also be interested. What sort of scale, division, corps or army battles? I have pushing 10,000 eager troops hoping for something to reverse their luck!
Mollinary
QuoteI have pushing 10,000 eager troops hoping for something to reverse their luck!
Oh you know we want some pics of that lot, don't you??! 8)
Nik,
Here you go:
(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4033/4460270030_0d8f66b1ff.jpg)
Mollinary
Very nice 8)
That's not 10,000 though, right? :P ;)
Correct, but it is only one board (12ft by 6ft) of the area to the west of Sedan. There was another similarly sized one for the Givonne valley to the East, and a separate 6ft by 6ft one for the area around the village of Bazeilles. The table in the photo eventually engaged some 2 Prussian Corps, the Wurtemburg Field Division and a cavalry division, 2 French Corps and 2 cavalry divisions, so I suppose a total of c2,000 -2,500 and around 60-70 guns. The total deployed on all tables was about 7,000+. Since then, as we move to represent a battle where the Third Prussian Army was not present I have had to add another two new Prussian Corps, and a lot of cavalry to one side, and the Guard and a shed load of lignards to the other. For our next game 2 Bavarian Corps, the Wurttemburgers, the French Marine Division and the four Divisions of 1st Corps will all lie idle while their new brethren get their baptism of fire!
Cheers
Mollinary
Sounds *stunning* 8)
Thanks Nik, we're hoping that August will be quite a game. The Pendraken range really inspired me to go into the FPW in a big way, and my discovery of the quality and affordability of Fernando's "showcase standard" painting, combined to allow me to build up larger armies quicker than ever before. John Dz, my wargaming friend, and I have also put a lot of time and effort into acquiring suitable terrain via the excellent Keith Warren of Realistic Modelling. Togther with some simple rules, and congenial gamers they produce a fun and good looking product. As most of the troops will be Pendraken I'll try and get some photos which major a bit more on the figures for the autumn.
Cheers
Mollinary
We've sent the rules out to everyone who volunteered, so please have a look, adjust as necessary and let us know what you think of them!
Hello Dave, I be up for testing - it will make me finish the other units - what unit size are you using?
I'd be happy to show the rules to my gaming group in TN. Always looking for a new way to spend a paycheck.
chris
Quote from: privateer on 13 April 2010, 04:57:37 AM
Hello Dave, I be up for testing - it will make me finish the other units - what unit size are you using?
Quote from: zaapark on 14 April 2010, 05:19:09 PM
I'd be happy to show the rules to my gaming group in TN. Always looking for a new way to spend a paycheck.
I'll send you both a copy of the rules, let us know what you think.
Thanks Dave, I had the first read last night and they look playable - that will happen this weekend, no special rules for a Brunswick Regiment though (I would like to see something like they hit on whatever they roll and never suffer moral, but only when they are my troops)
Dave ive a good friend whos recently been doing a lot of reading about the FPW, id be happy to pass a set onto him if you want.
Thanks.
That'd be great, I'll send them over to you now.
Incidentally, has anyone had the chance to give them a go yet?
Sadly I suffer from that afflication that means I absolutely refuse to play with unpainted miniatures >:(
I am there or there abouts with my FPW figs and would hope to get a game in before I go on holiday in mid August although my stuff is based for POW so that will take priority.
Quote from: Nosher on 13 July 2010, 07:19:20 AM
Sadly I suffer from that afflication that means I absolutely refuse to play with unpainted miniatures >:(
Me too...I think there's another thread & poll there y'know...hmm...http://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php?topic=960.0
Has anybody managed to give this a go yet?
Matt
Well, we had our first real game, not the practice one, of the campaign last weekend and it was great, we have ajusted the figure scale as we have used 10 figures per base not 8 but it did not cause a problem. I find the moral rules a bit light but good non the less. BTW the French held their own and managed a good tactical withdrawl leaving them in a good position for the next move in the campaign. - I was playing the Germans
Dave was asking about this thread the other night, has anyone got any feedback on these yet? Any info would be much appreciated.
Do me a dismounted Austrian Hussar (1866) and I'll even write up an AAR!
Quote from: cameronian on 22 November 2010, 05:22:10 PM
Do me a dismounted Austrian Hussar (1866) and I'll even write up an AAR!
:D
I've just started a game using the download Leon.
My figures are 15mm based for Fire & Fury but with consistant frontages the units still look ok, (if I can figure out how to do it I'll post some pictures). At the minute I've just set up but hope to get some moves done over the next week or so...the benefits of a permanent table!
Like everyone else I have loads of unpainted but can comfortably field just over a corps of French and two and a half of Germans.
cheers
John Thompson
Quote from: scrutonsmog on 12 January 2011, 12:55:27 PM
I've just started a game using the download Leon.
My figures are 15mm based for Fire & Fury but with consistant frontages the units still look ok, (if I can figure out how to do it I'll post some pictures). At the minute I've just set up but hope to get some moves done over the next week or so...the benefits of a permanent table!
Like everyone else I have loads of unpainted but can comfortably field just over a corps of French and two and a half of Germans.
Cheers John, I'll mention it to Dave when he comes in. If these rules work effectively, we might look at extending them a bit, and then working them for other periods, kind of like Baccus have done with the Polemos rules.
Polemos "Shudder!!!"
Quote from: GordonY on 12 January 2011, 04:21:20 PM
Polemos "Shudder!!!"
Maybe not the rules, but the way they are marketed with the figures!
I've got 2 Corp of Prussians, the Wurttenburg Division and 2 Corps of Fench based for Volley & Bayonet, I'll give them a go!
Quote from: mad lemmey on 12 January 2011, 07:45:29 PM
I've got 2 Corp of Prussians, the Wurttenburg Division and 2 Corps of Fench based for Volley & Bayonet, I'll give them a go!
Great stuff, let us know what you think of them!
"Maybe not the rules, but the way they are marketed with the figures!"
why bother Leon? you should just stock up on all the Warmaster based rulesets (and all the fan-based stuff as well as downloads) it (WM) is whats driving your sales in the main, plus your excellent figs are driving sales of the ruleset. Well thats my opinion anyway, but you know what they say about opinions.
Gordon
Quote from: GordonY on 12 January 2011, 08:00:08 PM
why bother Leon? you should just stock up on all the Warmaster based rulesets (and all the fan-based stuff as well as downloads) it (WM) is whats driving your sales in the main, plus your excellent figs are driving sales of the ruleset. Well thats my opinion anyway, but you know what they say about opinions.
It's better from a profit and marketing point of view. We can make more money from our own rules than we would reselling the WM ones, as well as increasing the sales of any pre-packaged armies. Plus, if the rules are decent, it brings new gamers into the scale and into Pendraken.
i think Baccus have managed to grow the whole 6mm market through linking their figs to ruleset support. I think its a good idea
Quote from: goat major on 12 January 2011, 08:12:02 PM
i think Baccus have managed to grow the whole 6mm market through linking their figs to ruleset support. I think its a good idea
Are we talking Polemos here?
They have got to be the most >:( :( :o :'( :d rules I have ever played. Poorly written, poorly laid out, and frustratingly dull to play. That said their figures are superb and their service is good so two out of three keeps me going back
yep i meant polemos. i dont know it or play it but it seems to sell their figures....
Well after much delay we have had the second battle in the campaign using the rules.
A brief description of the battle
The French of 1st Corps, with the 4th Division in the centre, the 2nd Division on the left and what was left of the 1st Division on the right with the 3rd Division in reserve, were lining the edge of a wooded area that ran down to a river in a valley. This was the area of the 4th and 2nd Divisions. Across the river was a town which was held by the 1st.
The Prussians of the XI Corps' XXI Division march onto the table opposite the French 1st Division. The commander ordered the XXI straight into the attacked with no artillery preparation. In fact the Prussian artillery did not make it to firing positions until well after the first attack had be repulsed. This messy repulsed was something he never got over and from then on seemed to change his plan. Next to move onto the table were the Prussian IX and X Divisions of V Corps. They proceeded to attack the wooded areas defended by the 4th Division who shot them to pieces with the help of the Corps reserve artillery. This was the point where the hard pressed 2nd divisions 50th Regiment broke leaving a hole in the French line and forcing the 74th to give ground as well. The Prussian 6th Grenadier and 37th Fusilier Regiments had done the job but with the divisions 2nd Brigade unable to provide support quickly enough they were routed by a well timed counter attack by the 2nd Zouave, the 48th Regiment and the 8th Chasseurs . This put paid to any through of breaking the French and forcing another retreat. The Prussians withdrew to the high ground at their table edge to await reinforcements and the French commander is to decide whether it is still a good defensive line or to withdraw closer to support from the other French Corps .
The Prussians got thumped, really thumped. French rifle fire cut the Prussian infantry apart. The Prussians failed to support with their artillery and the result was that the Prussian infantry advanced into fresh French troops for the 1st Corps and were cut to pieces. What was to be expected really.
The Rules
They worked well now that we have made some modification for moral, we also fleshed out the built up area rules to allow for Battalions/Regiments to be responsible for the defence of an area which allows for support from within the Regiment. This seemed to work quite will and when artillery is used to soften up the point of attack makes it very playable (we did a quick test after the game).
Next game we will be looking at the command and control aspects as all of us felt they could have been more influential with attack and defence.
Summary
A game that was fun for the commanders and myself. I will be getting wagons for the supply aspect of the battle as I am a big fan of the logistics of the battle. I will be looking to have one wagon per battalion so a Division will have a train of fifteen to eighteen wagons which will create a new set pf problems for the Commanders of the Corps.
(Do I get extra point for size of post? it has got a bit big)
Quote from: privateer on 14 January 2011, 03:28:44 AM
Well after much delay we have had the second battle in the campaign using the rules.
Excellent, cheers for the report and thanks for the feedback on the rules. I'll show this to Dave when I see him tomorrow.
8)
Great report, any piccies?
Does sound typical, French hold ground and don't take the initiative to throw the Prussians back.
Prussian order of march was artillery first, so they could get them into close range and fire in support of the infantry; unfortunately if the infantry gets tied up (such as IX Corp at Razonville) they got mauled by the French Chassepots!
Mad Lemmey
I haven't tried them yet, but if Dave doesn't mind I would like to download them and adapt them for 1866,
Chad
Hi
I've not been on the forum long but play FPW and would be really interested in playtesting the FPW ruleset. At present I plat Polemos but as has been said in previous posts, they can be a bit frustrating. It would be interesting to look at a different possibility.
Nick
Quote from: Chad on 14 January 2011, 01:15:28 PM
I haven't tried them yet, but if Dave doesn't mind I would like to download them and adapt them for 1866,
That'd be great, if the core of the rules works, then we'd like to adapt them for other areas anyway.
Quote from: Bigfulsey on 14 January 2011, 02:18:31 PM
I've not been on the forum long but play FPW and would be really interested in playtesting the FPW ruleset.
Nick
The more the merrier, the PDF link is in the first post of this thread.
Hello, The march on to the table was very disorganised, The Prussian Artillery was not on the vangard but at the rear of both divisions of both corps and the Corps Artillery of both corps did not even get to fight.
I have large units for my armies, four stands of ten figures per battalion for the Germans and three for the French Line and Chasseur. The Turcos and Zoveues have two and half and two stands per battalion. Add to this a logistics wagon (which we did not use this game) and the Divisions become quite big making planning of engagments very important.
I was very pleased with the result of the game, it was what I expected when I saw the Prussian deployment. It turns out that one of the Prussian commander, who had never played the Franco-Prussian War before had read just enough to be dangerous. As it was only the second battle in the campaign it is shaping up to be interesting
FPW is my thang! I'll be happy to give them a go and can guarantee at least two opponents. :)
Dave's just asked if anyone has any more feedback on these, plus any recommendations on changes to be made?
Yo Bigfulsey, drop me line on the forum. May have some alternative FPW stuff up here in Liverpool before too long.
DP
Quote from: Leon on 01 April 2011, 01:02:08 PM
Dave's just asked if anyone has any more feedback on these, plus any recommendations on changes to be made?
Haven't played them yet but i've had a good read through.
Once i get my French painted up i'll run a game with these rules and let you know.
However, there's one question i have about the small arms ranges.
German rifle 300mm / French rifle 500mm.
Now, as i understand, the German Dreyse had an effective rang of about 600yards, but given the failings of the rifle itself (tendencey of the bolt to fail to close properly which reduced the muzzle velocity and range further and forced the troops to 'fire from the hip' to avoid getting their face burned by the escaping gasses) the Germans rarely opened fire at ranges beyond 2-300 yards.
The French Chassepot on the other hand had an effective range of 1300yards, and the French drill and training had them opening fire on average at 7-800 yards, often with devastating effect that surprised the German troops and commanders.
Since your groundscale indicates 1mm=2m, should't the ranges therefore be:
German Dreyse
Short (
Effective) 300yds (150mm) / Long (
)Maximum) 600yrds (300mm)
French Chassepot
Short (
Effective) 700yds (350mm) / Long (
)Maximum) 1200yrds (600mm)
Just a minor point i suppose, but for me the 'rifle duel' was one of the critical frictions of the FPW and worth giving consideration to.
I'm not sure how this relates to your troop movement paces though. How long is a turn?
Open order troops move 70mm max in a turn which is 35 yards by your groundscale.
At a brisk pace, troops would do 35 yards in 20 seconds. So a turn is 20 seconds?
In that time, a Chassepot rifle could get off about 6 shots (represented by the one attack dice roll?)
Is that important to consider?
More importantly though at a pace of 70mm, moving into guns under your ranges, advancing Germans will take 4 rounds of shooting before contact. They should probably face 8 turns of shooting if reflecting the friction of the problems they faced advancing into the French rifles during FPW battles?
Just some intitial thoughts. ;)
I would agree with all of that, especially when you look at The Prussian accounts of advancing in the lead storm.
Ok chaps, next on my painting schedule is finishing my FPW French so I’m casting about looking for FPW rules. Those sets I’ve got don’t really ‘float my boat’ so it’ll either be Black Powder or a conversion of Fire & Fury. However I thought I’d give your rules a run through to see how they work out.
It became quickly evident though that I have a few issues in trying to understand how they work so I’ll simply go through them here as feedback / questions.
Caveat: I realise these aren’t the finished article so the formatting/layout issues are disregarded.
Disclaimer: There’s probably going to be a lot of ‘negative’ things in the following post so I’ll state up front, beneath the ‘issues’, I really quite like these rules. There are some neat little ideas in there and enough promise to make me think its worth the effort of rewriting them for my own use (which I have done â€" copy available if you’d like it)…
I really like the total limit of what can move each turn â€" an interesting approach to impetus limitation without the need for endless command dice rolls. And the German propensity to ‘march to the guns’ is rather fun.
If I’ve interpreted the task resolution mechanic right, its interesting, although it does seem that elite units are less predictable and can fail bigger than raw units, which seems odd.
Anyway…here we go. Feedback.
Deployment
Rules needed for non-scenario terrain set up.
Initiative. I really can’t figure out what you’re saying with this text. Who gets initiative, how, and what does it mean?
Orders. These are written orders I take it? No worries. However, how are they transmitted? How are they changed? There’s no real reference to commanders throughout , so I’m puzzled how orders affect play or are affected by a command structure.
Turn sequence
Once deployment has taken place the following game sequence is followed for both sides simultaneously.
Both sides simultaneously?
How does that work?
How does that relate to the ‘offensive player/highest goes first’ thing in Intitiative?
‘Other actions (like hiding)’ are mentioned. What other actions? How do they (and hiding) work?
Creating and splitting units
When can this be done? How?
How many stands can be split off?
How far from the parent unit can they go? What formation are they?
Movement
There’s no mention of how units move about; things like wheeling, turns, oblique, etc.
Can a unit just move in any direction? Change facing at will? Etc.
Movement rates are very short. A unit in standard fighting line moves 5cm in open ground. Given a standard 6x4’ table setup is 120cm on the short side, it will take a unit moving 24 turns to reach the opponent’s baseline. Most 3hr games I’ve played typically get through 8-16 turns. Is this intended?
Some ranges seem really short â€" close order troops moving 3cm in rough ground! :o I’m not sure its even possible to measure such small distances in the swirling melee of a wargame! Hehe… ;D
Charging
When do units charge? During movement?
What is required to ‘make contact’?
A charging unit can fire, but when? When is the resulting melee resolved?
When is the morale test taken? Before moving? After moving?
How does a unit ‘stand and fire’ at a charging unit? There doesn’t appear to be an option.
Disorder
What’s this about? What effect does it have?
Stand strength
Cavalry = 4
Infantry = 8
Artillery = 10
Why are artillery more resilient than other troops?
How are hits against this strength recorded? Per stand? Per unit?
What happens if a unit with outstanding hits detaches a stand? Where do the hits go?
What happens in detached stand with hits on it rejoins the parent unit? Where do the hits go?
Are hits carried over from turn to turn?
Weapon ranges
Note: I mentioned elsewhere that I think the French rifles need to be far greater range than the Germans to reflect the key ‘rifle duel’ friction of the war.
Weapon factor
What does this mean?
How does the weapon factor work?
Is it the number of dice rolled? Per unit? Per stand?
Is it a set number that together with the modifiers makes up the firing effects total?
What does this do?
Target/firer status
Dice modifier
1 x D6
Does each unit fire separately or do you total up everything shooting at one unit and roll once?
If you total everything, shooting is pretty ineffective. If units fire individually, I makes sense to detach as much as possible as this multiples the value of modifiers and the damage that can be done. Lots of small units do much more damage than a few large units that way.
Since the effect of shooting gives a maximum 3 hits, won’t it take forever to whittle down units? A single artillery base can survive 3 rounds of devastating fire (max 3 hits per shot) and still be hanging on with 1 Hit.
How are bases removed? Closest to the shooting?
Melee
What does this mean?
Only stands in base to base contact can fight and units who have survived the morale test.
How is ‘base to base contact’ defined?
‘Survived the morale test’?
How far does artillery run when charged and ‘running to nearest friend/cover’? Why isn’t it just overrun and captured? Why doesn’t it stand and fight?
Melee ratings
What does this mean?
How does the melee rating work?
Is it the number of dice rolled? Per unit? Per stand?
Is it a set number that together with the modifiers makes up the firing effects total?
What does this do?
Melee modifiers
Dice modifier
1 x D6
Modifiers:
When is a unit ‘close packed’?
When is a stand ‘overlapping’?
How is ‘difference in troop quality’ assessed?
When is a unit ‘following up’?
‘Every 25% more men’ â€" what does this mean? 25% of what? Stand? Unit?
Melee effects table
The results expressed here determine the outcome of the combat â€" whether the attack or defender stand takes casualties, is pushed back, killed outright etc.
Who resolves this attack? Just the attacker? When does the defender get to fight? What about if the defender has counter attacked? How does that affect things?
What happens if a stand is pushed back but the other stands in the unit aren’t?
Morale
How is morale resolved?
Dice are rolled, but how many?
Each stand in a unit gives +1 to the Morale score â€" what is the Morale score?
When are morale tests taken? The last ‘phase’ in the turn (‘all other morale’)?
What happens if a unit has more than one reason to test morale?
Why are the reasons to test morale identical to the morale modifiers? Doesn’t this mean that every morale test is inherently modified?
Morale response
Has a range of +10 to -6. How does any unit ever achieve +10 since almost all the modifiers are minuses and the highest plus is +2?
There are lots of blank spaces in the morale response table â€" what do they mean?
For ‘Advance/obey orders’ what is ‘favourable terrain’?
What does this mean?
Charge: Move to close combat no matter what the risks.[/b]
When does the unit charge?
What if it can’t charge to close combat because there’s no enemy nearby?
What about French units that can’t advance/leave defended cover?
What does this mean?
Rout: Run off until rallied by general
The presence of the General in base contact and the unit away from being fired at and charged can stop the above actions by a morale throw; this can be attempted only after 3 periods of rout. [/b]
Run off? How? Where?
A morale throw?
This is the only mention of a General â€" is this all they do?
General questions
When does an army’s morale collapse (losing the game)?
Are there commanders? What do they do?
There is no points system for creating balanced forces (as well as unbalanced scenarios) â€" is this intentional?
Um, yeah, that should do for now.
Hope that’s helpful feedback for you. :)
:-\
Do you want my FPW modifications for BP then? ;) :D ;)
Thanks for all the feedback there, I'll get Dave to have a read through and come back with some answers.
Quote from: Leon on 05 October 2011, 03:42:47 PM
Thanks for all the feedback there, I'll get Dave to have a read through and come back with some answers.
No worries Leon.
I reckon there's a potentially workable set here so i'll be interested to see a revised version.
Hi Lemmy, I'd be very interested in your FPW modifications for Black Powder, which I have now bought.
DP
Cool, PM sent
Cheers Mad Lemmy, DP
Mad Lemmey - mate, I'd like sight of those as well if that's ok...
nikharwood AT gmail.com :)
Okay, will send notes I sent DP...
Quote from: mad lemmey on 07 October 2011, 07:33:07 PM
Okay, will send notes I sent DP...
Mucho appreciatedo :)
I'll join the chorus if you don't mind sending me a copy Lemmy? B)
Email's under my picture...
Sorry Luddite - says your email is private... :(
Send me one, I'll bounce my thoughts back madlemmey at hotmail dot com
Otherwise, it's sent :D
Damned Article 8...see its made me privacy-savvy. That and my job in data privacy of course. ;)
Email sent. Much appreciated in advance old chap.
Hi Nik,
Bill Gray has written an excellent set of rules covering the period.
Based on Fire and fury.
http://ageofeagles.grouply.com/
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/NapoleonicFireandFury/
A cross between F&F and Naps Battles
Also SYW and WAS
Has a pdf in the files section to convert the basic ruls to FPW.
Bases are 20mm wide by 25mm deep for 15mm figures. Betwen 5 and 15 bases to a brigade.
one base of 4 infantry = 360 men or 2 cavalry = 180 men.
14 inches = 1 mile
one move = 30 minutes
The Brits look good in 10mm. 8 infantry in 2 ranks.
The scenario controls how things work so you don't have to alter rules.
There are well over 2000 members
Thanks Mike - I'll give that a look 8)
We have used the Fire and Fury variant and scenarios here (http://www.wfgamers.org.uk/) for many years. We have an updated version on the way.
Quote from: Luddite on 05 October 2011, 01:15:04 PM
Ok chaps, next on my painting schedule is finishing my FPW French so I’m casting about looking for FPW rules. Those sets I’ve got don’t really ‘float my boat’ so it’ll either be Black Powder or a conversion of Fire & Fury. However I thought I’d give your rules a run through to see how they work out.
Luddite
Thank you for the detailed comments, I've finally had chance to sit down and clarify the rules and possibly my thinking - difficult to do if you talk to Leon. I would like to see your own copy. I'll email these direct as red text on the rules and your comments.
All the best for Christmas Dave
Incidentally chaps, how are these coming along?
Quote from: Luddite on 03 August 2012, 03:08:21 PM
Incidentally chaps, how are these coming along?
Very slowly... :( almost glacial in fact! We've not touched them for ages now, just don't have the time to focus on other projects unfortunately.