I'm scratching my head (thankfully, *just* my head). I'm about 2-3 years from retirement (deo volente) and am thinking about a big project to take me through the first few (or more) years of retirement. Aside from WW1 and WW2, all my gaming has been pretty much at a skirmish level and I am keen to do massed battles with small figures - 10mm or possibly (for cost reasons, as I want *large* armies) 6mm.
I am drawn to the Seven Years War, as I used to have a 15mm Prussian army (Mike's Models) back in the 80s which I gave away when I went to university (ironically acting rather immaturely in a desire to 'put away childish things') - but have recently become drawn more and more to Napoleonic gaming (1809 and the Russian 1812 campaign).
Can any of you proffer your own views on the merits and disadvantages of each period from a minis, painting, rules, replayability perspective? I feel in need of guidance from the wise hive-mind.
Thanking in advance those who read this and/or post a response.
Mike H
Hmm.
Seven Years War - in 10mm I've used 24 fig battalions and 12 figure cavalry regiments for French and Allied armies [Prussian and Austrian regiments would be stronger]. I've got multiple brigades (about 20 battalions a side) which I have to finish painting. Also able to use a fair chunk of the figures for War of Austrian Succession.
Rules wise I have found Honours of War pretty good using 15mm scales (about 10cm frontage per battalion). I played Lobositz with a friend a couple of years ago who has Prussians and Austrians - bathtubbed a bit - which went well. I tested Black Powder and it was OK but didn't feel very SYW like.
Napoleonic - I have both 1809 Austrians (need more cavalry and Landwehr), French (with Bavarians and an Hessian brigade) and Peninsular British/Portuguese forces. In each case standard size battalions of 4 bases (of 8 figures each) and cavalry 18 figures for a standard regiment but they are all in need of painting.
I am tending toward General d'Armee though I may use Lasalle 2 for divisional size games.
I've got a 6' x 4' figures so will never do massive games.
Edward
I have both Seven years war and Napoleonic in 15mm,. Napoleonic in 25mm but nothing in 10mm.
Would tend to go Seven years war in 10mm or AWI. The AWI figures are wonderful works of art.
Rules were the WRG with seven years war variations and Black Powder.
The most important question:
Do you want to paint hundreds of tricornes, or hundreds of shakos?
If your heart is on 10mm, Pendraken have an exhaustive range of Seven Years War figures.
I hazard that no manufacturer in any scale has an exhaustive list of Napoleonic figures.
I won't make any recommendation on figures because I think it is a very personal preference.
On Rules and playability/replayability I'd say it has to be Napoleonic.
Try as I might I can't love 7YW battlefield tactics. Linear, line up and bash boring. If the rules you play are doing their stuff in reproducing the choices and tactics available in the real thing you are going to get bored very quickly.
If the games you get from your rules are exciting, manoeuvre fests with units breaking through and rolling up lines - they aren't a good 7YW set!
Of course other interpretations and choices are available and uniforms and figures are very pretty in 7YW.
(But I'm right about the best the game!)
(Re hats - a not unimportant consideration! With judicious choice re which bit of the Napoleonic Wars you choose - you could paint hundreds of Bicornes!
You might find that a large percentage of 7YW aficionados concentrate on getting the game going.
Conversely a large percentage of Nappies worry more about plumes, their colour and their height.
Then again you might or might not.
Now discuss.
Well, the linearity of 7YW games does worry me a little in terms of a lack of variety for set-up and play (although a good and faithful set of rules can I suppose still inject some verve into a simple clash of lines).
The tricorne v shako debate is an interesting one which I haven't before attended to. Perhaps that degree of fascination/antipathy only comes with time.
I also have a relative loathing of painting horses (the inevitability of which I accept, with some distaste) but I suppose both wars manifest an equal amount of these 4-legged beasts (perhaps fewer in the 7YW?).
Of course, one of the fascinations with this period is how the armies manoeuvred to get onto the battlefield and how they were then able to flank March, concentrate forces on one flank (or centrally), attack at an oblique, &c.,. Are there any rulesets for either period which deal with these preliminary moves (off the table)?
Theatre dependent Nappies.
AWI definitely
Continental Europe 7YW doesn't really float my boat.
Quote from: Gwydion on 13 August 2025, 08:01:10 PMOn Rules and playability/replayability I'd say it has to be Napoleonic.
Try as I might I can't love 7YW battlefield tactics. Linear, line up and bash boring.
I absolutely agree with Gwydion. (As explained at length on the BBBBlog following a discussion on this very forum a mere decade ago: https://bloodybigbattles.blogspot.com/2016/04/airing-some-prejudices-on-one.html )
Quote from: henjed on 13 August 2025, 08:34:53 PMOf course, one of the fascinations with this period is how the armies manoeuvred to get onto the battlefield and how they were then able to flank March, concentrate forces on one flank (or centrally), attack at an oblique, &c.,. Are there any rulesets for either period which deal with these preliminary moves (off the table)?
I once launched a fantasy/ancients campaign based on this very premise, with the idea that having a campaign background would generate more interesting tabletop games. The campaign kept a dozen players entertained for four years - but after wargaming the first two battles I realised they were still boring and the tail was wagging the dog, so I just arbitrated them with a few dice after that and let everyone get on with the fun part of being merry despots. For myself, I don't imagine a bit of pre-game maneuver would be enough to make up for the subsequent going-through-the-motions bit. (That said, I'm sure I will have to play some more linear warfare soon - a couple of the other guys are into 7YW and GNW and WSS, and I've read quite a bit about Frederick the Great recently ...)
In short, go Napoleonic!
I'd be interested in knowing why people game 'tricorne battles' if they're so predictable - presumably a general deep fascination for the period and/or the uniforms and units?
I know that I game a period which leaves a lot of people cold (1914, Western and Eastern Fronts) because I find the narrative of the campaigns, the scale of the confrontations and the detail of the tactical decision-making fascinating, but that is quite possibly not to everyone's taste...
I can only urge that you judge 7YW tactics by some informed accounts that rely on contemporary documents in the Christopher Duffy tradition, rather than by rehashes of Featherstone and Grant stereotypes.
Napoleonic Prussians. You can buy 3 armies with different uniforms/headgear, and still only have Prussians...
May I suggest you look at Blucher from Sam Mustafa if you want to do high level games. In Grand Scale a base is approx 4000 infantry. There are no formations, you work on the basis the colonels know what they are doing, you are worried about the Corps not battalions. (Yes, infantry can go 'prepared ', I know.)
One advantage is it is measurement neutral, distances are Base Width, so it doesn't matter if you are based for a different system.
I will nail my colours firmly to the mast and repeat my mantra of "nothing between Malplaquet and Maida". Why? I have some Marlburian armies, and there's not sufficient difference between 1704 and 1756 to make investment worthwhile.
I would turn the question to you and ask what are you trying to get out of the exercise? What are the factors that get your juices flowing?
- Location? Europe, India, Americas - all available in both 7YW and Napoleonic
- Big countries or little ones? Have you a penchant for replicating the entire army of a small nation, or are you happy to replicate a slice of a larger one? Again, 7YW and Napoleonics offer both.
- Refight? Do you intend to refight one battle over and over again, or are you prepared to be a little more flexible?
- Multiple troop types? The Napoleonic period has much a greater choice of troops. They may have been available in the 7YW, but the Napoleonic offers more variety.
- "Napoleonic" covers some big changes, in uniforms, organisations and tactic. As Last Hussar says, the Prussians had 3 separate phases; one could say the same for the Spanish and to a lesser extent the British. Even a French grenadier of 1804 doesn't look like a French Grenadier of 1814.
- Tricornes? I hate painting tricornes.
- Rule set. Do you have a rule set you like? (I write my own, so not a problem for me.)
- Resources. I'm not a big 7YW fan, but I'd warrant there are more on the Napoleonic period. Quick check on Amazon shows 352 returns for "Napoleonic Wars Books" against 50 for "7 years war books"
- Staid or flexible? It is a over-simplification, but if you want to fight something that is quite structured and formal - go 7YW. If you want something more fluid, go Napoleonic. I am not decrying staid and formal, it looks good. For an extreme example of the differences, I would cite Valmy.
As far as figures are concerned, the Pendraken range of Napoleonics is excellent. If you go for the Peninsula or 1815 ranges, the sculpts are newer and particularly fine.
There's also the classic:
"What do your opponents / clubs in your area play?"
Lots of good stuff here - thank you.
I've looked at Blucher (and also at Maurice - a very different set of rules, I know). I think the abstraction of the former may be a bit much for me. I do like the idea of saying this small block of figures is this (named) unit and this other is another. But I am aware that the bigger battles I want to fight (especially on an 8' x 4' table (the biggest I can manage at home)) will involve necessary abstraction.
I've been blessed with seven sons (and a daughter). All but two of them have been my partners in gaming (a few still are) so I've never felt the need to find a club or other players. But all that will change when my youngest sons leave home (3 to 4 years, I expect).
fsn's questions are good ones. I don't want to endlessly refight one or more historical battles. I like playing plausible fictional campaigns. At the moment I think I know too little of some of the 'side-shows' (not intended disparagingly) of the Napoleonic Wars to establish a desire to acquire some of the smaller armies. I clearly need to read around a little more.
Much to ponder!
Quote from: henjed on 14 August 2025, 10:43:27 AMI am aware that the bigger battles I want to fight (especially on an 8' x 4' table (the biggest I can manage at home)) will involve necessary abstraction.
fsn's questions are good ones. I don't want to endlessly refight one or more historical battles. I like playing plausible fictional campaigns.
If you get Napoleonic Austrians and French for 1809, I think there is lots of potential for what-if campaigns based on that. And even if you just stick to historical French vs Austrians battles, provided you're not too fussy about headgear, there are so many that it could be a long time before you need to replay any.
As for rules, I suggest you look at Shugyosha's "Ultimate Napoleonic Wargame Rules Review and Comparison":
https://wargamingeverything.home.blog/2022/07/31/the-ultimate-napoleonic-wargame-rules-review-and-comparison/
It's a couple of years since it was last updated so it misses some more recently published rulesets, but it's still a pretty good overview. (Disclaimer: my own BBB gets a good write-up there.)
Good luck with finding the right ruleset and armies for your tastes.
Chris
Look for the free set "Valour and Fortitude" on the Perrys web site. There is also General d'Armee from the Lardies. First is free tut oder be paid for. Both come with lists. I have played both, and enjoyed them.
Blucher has a supplement included (Gneisenau) which you manoeuvre to contact on a map. This will determine what troops start on the table, the terrain, and when/if reinforcements turn up.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 14 August 2025, 01:23:49 AMI can only urge that you judge 7YW tactics by some informed accounts that rely on contemporary documents in the Christopher Duffy tradition, rather than by rehashes of Featherstone and Grant stereotypes.
I do.
Go with Napoleonics.
QuoteLook for the free set "Valour and Fortitude" on the Perrys web site. There is also General d'Armee from the Lardies. First is free tut oder be paid for. Both come with lists. I have played both, and enjoyed them.
I'm a fan of Valour and Fortitude.
It's the game that Black Powder 2.5 should have been.
It has a flexible core, which is really quite difficult to grasp.
The author's dedication to squeezing all the rules onto 4 sides of a4 does few favours for learnability.
It is extremely well written, and readable.
But the terse format means every definition apears once, and once only.
This is extremely good practice in technical writing and avoids multiple references getting out of step.
But one of the key factors in learning is repetition.
So you may find your first few passes through the rules extremely hard going.
Hints:
1. Begin with the understanding that valour tests and fortitude tests are the big morale checks (Valour for units, fortitude for brigade morale).
2. The heavy paragraph about target priority mostly boils down to. Attack the closest enemy that hasn't been attacked yet, or lend support to another unit's attack on the closest. (I know that's not exact, but its close enough until you decode the precise words).
3. The appendices about terrain and its effects are very keyword heavy. Draw a little map and label the features until it makes sense.
4. A Facebook group contains a mass of contributed supporting goodies. Translations of the rules, army lists for a wide range of conflicts, rule discussions, scenarios. Facebook maintained my interest when I was struggling to comprehend the rules.
5. The fans will claim the rules work for any period (indeed there are army lists stretching from the Punic War to North Africa in WW2 - big time shift, little geography shift). I believe they work well for around 1700 - 1865.
I have V&F somewhere - I can feel the Little Wooden Men getting a run out!