Pendraken Miniatures Forum

After a bit of a model & painting hiatus I'm starting a new project, the Greco-Persian and Peloponnesian Naval Wars

I've ordered quite a few 2mm laser cut plywood galleys from LaserCast in Australia :)

PS I should get the few WWI extras I'm painting for Pierre the Shy done before the galleys arrive :!!

Bases for this project arrived on Friday, had a productive weekend adding rare-earth magnets and filling remaining holes in the bases :)

They will need a light sand to remove any excess filler before galleys are based :-B

LaserCast should have made a start on cutting the galleys so they will hopefully arrive soon :-w

Created scenarios for Sybota 433 BC & Arginusae 406 BC. Almost completed the scenario for Salamis 480 BC

Finished the few WWI extras I'm painting for Pierre the Shy  #:-S

Also, two evenings gaming and a video chat with our usual group of gamers

Overall a very enjoyable and productive weekend :)  :)  :)

Interesting.

Who are getting the ship from?

https://lasercast.bigcartel.com/

Quote from: fsn on 08 June 2025, 09:12:07 AMInteresting.

Who are getting the ship from?

Paul is getting them from Lasercast, in Australia (and not Austria as my spell checker keeps "helpfully" suggesting).

They do a whole lot of 2mm scale stuff for Strength and Honour, Blucher and general use, including Ancient galleys.

I've ordered a handful myself to see what they are like .... plus a Roman marching camp which I don't need ( I have two others already!) but it was just too "Ooh! Shiny!" to resist and some 2mm scale siege equipment.

https://lasercast.bigcartel.com/product/2mm-scale-quinqueremes (https://lasercast.bigcartel.com/product/2mm-scale-quinqueremes)
https://lasercast.bigcartel.com/product/2mm-scale-triremes-and-quinqueremes (https://lasercast.bigcartel.com/product/2mm-scale-triremes-and-quinqueremes)
Cute.
Hmm. A$8 for 5 triremes ... £1.60 at A$0.48 to the £ ... means about 77p per trireme. Postage about £11.


Photos! I need photos!

Pssst, FSN...
https://tumblingdiceuk.com/collections/1-2400-naval-classical-ancient-c800bc-1300ad

Hi Paul

QuoteAfter a bit of a model & painting hiatus I'm starting a new project, the Greco-Persian and Peloponnesian Naval Wars

Always had a soft spot for the Peloponnesian war, what naval rules are you using?

Cheers Paul

QuotePssst, FSN...
https://tumblingdiceuk.com/collections/1-2400-naval-classical-ancient-c800bc-1300ad

Yeah.  :(  I've got a few of these and not terribly happy with them - or rather my presentation of them.

Ithoriel is correct they are coming from LaserCast in Victoria. They have been cut and the package has reached Melbourne :-w

Triremes (both kinds), Lembos, and Pentekonters plus a few merchant ships
2mm scale Triremes, Lembos, and Pentekonters (https://lasercast.bigcartel.com/product/2mm-scale-triremes-and-quinqueremes)
2mm scale Ancient Merchant Ships and Boats (https://lasercast.bigcartel.com/product/2mm-scale-ancient-merchant-ships) (including picture of based ships)

Quote from: T13A on 08 June 2025, 06:14:03 PMAlways had a soft spot for the Peloponnesian war, what naval rules are you using?

After not being able to find a set of rules that I like that are pitched at large battles I'm helping write a set based on a set of Ancient and Medieval land rules.

They will let me play Salamis 480 BC with 20 galleys per unit/base. For smaller action a base could represent 5, 10, or 15 galleys.

I'm halfway through painting the underside of the MDF bases to seal them, planning to glue the galleys to the bases and paint in situ, finishing with the sea.

I've got one spare cataphract trireme in the order so will be painting this up as a test before launching into 'production'

I've bagged up Pierre the Shy's few WWI extras for him to collect at our game on Friday night.

Oh, those are fun!  8)

Package of galleys has been at international departures in Melbourne since Friday morning, either that or the tracking sites aren't updating :-w  ~X(

Pierre the Shy's few WWI extras handed over at our game on Friday night :)

Finished painting the underside of all the MDF bases :)

It appears to be a long way from Melbourne to Auckland, either that or AusPost doesn't work on weekends :-\

The package of galleys arrived in Auckland on Monday afternoon, cleared Customs and was on its way to the 'local' depot within 13 minutes :o

Took over an hour to get to the 'local' depot, that's Auckland traffic for you :-w

Will hopefully travel down to Wellington overnight :-SS

In time to be delivered tomorrow or Thursday before the Matariki holiday weekend that starts on Friday :!!

Package traveled down to Wellington overnight :)

Was delivered and was waiting for me when I got home from work :)  :)

(https://i.imgur.com/2HvOxvk.jpg)
A lot of galleys in a very small box, next to pizza boxes of prepared bases  :)  :)

Tim from LaserCast kindly included a few boats and a couple of fishing villages as a bonus :-bd

(https://i.imgur.com/2zfVsST.jpg)
First galley assembled, this is a test to see how they go together, it was very straightforward
I've done a little bit of sanding to angle the oars and take the hard edge off the prow and stern
To give a sense of size the grid on my cutting mat is 5mm

The way the order and my basing worked out this is the only spare galley in the order and it will be used to test my painting approach.
It is not on the bases I'll be using for the units.

Are the oars the wrong way round, or is it a fire stroke?

Fire stroke is not a term I've come across

The oars come in two positions, the one above is about to begin the stroke

The other is at the end of the stroke with the oars 'pointing' aft

Which brings me to a question I have always wanted an answer to, but never seen one. Which way did oarsmen in ancient galleys face, forwards or backwards?

Propably backward to get extra leverage.

Quote from: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 18 June 2025, 08:21:10 AMAre the oars the wrong way round, or is it a fore stroke?

Fire stroke,bloody autocorrect

Great, they've arrived  :-bd

As for ship orientation...."Sharp end at the front, blunt end at the back" 

Triremes, quadremes, quinremes.....Είναι όλα ελληνικά για μένα  :)

QuoteAre the oars the wrong way round, or is it a fore stroke?

The oars are at the beginning of the stroke (towards the bow), the models also come with oars at the end of the stroke (towards the stern)

Quote from: mollinary on 18 June 2025, 01:40:28 PMWhich brings me to a question I have always wanted an answer to, but never seen one. Which way did oarsmen in ancient galleys face, forwards or backwards?

The limited contemporary or near contemporary artwork that shows galley crews has them facing the stern (back)

e.g. Trajan's Column
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/058_Conrad_Cichorius%2C_Die_Reliefs_der_Traianss%C3%A4ule%2C_Tafel_LVIII.jpg/1920px-058_Conrad_Cichorius%2C_Die_Reliefs_der_Traianss%C3%A4ule%2C_Tafel_LVIII.jpg)

The designers of the Olympias replica also have the rowers facing the stern

QuoteThe oars are at the beginning of the stroke (towards the bow), the models also come with oars at the end of the stroke (towards the stern)
The limited contemporary or near contemporary artwork that shows galley crews has them facing the stern (back)

e.g. Trajan's Column
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/058_Conrad_Cichorius%2C_Die_Reliefs_der_Traianss%C3%A4ule%2C_Tafel_LVIII.jpg/1920px-058_Conrad_Cichorius%2C_Die_Reliefs_der_Traianss%C3%A4ule%2C_Tafel_LVIII.jpg)

The designers of the Olympias replica also have the rowers facing the stern

Many thanks for that! I suspected as much, but was not sure.

Rowing backwards is much more efficient, and almost universal.

I can think of three exceptions:

Venetian gondoliers.
They row, it isn't a punt, but using a figure of eight motion with a rowlock at the rear of the boat.

Venetian Galleasses - 
Venice again eh!! This one's a bit of a cheat. 
As oars became bigger, with more rowers per oar,  the rowers didn't grip around the oar. They used handles, or hollows in the oar.
At galleass scale, the rowers are standing, some behind the oar facing forward and some before, facing back.
Some rowers are facing forward.

This modern gadget, which converts direction of movement.
    https://smallboatsmonthly.com/article/forward-facing-rowing-system/
I wouldn't like to rely on this using ancient materials on an open seaway.


There are other boat scale solutions, canoes, dragon boats, pacific island canoes.
But we refer to that mode as paddling, not rowing.
The significant difference is the lack of mechanical advantage levering through a rowlock.

And the Coracle.
https://youtu.be/ZR3WD34wlL8?si=GjESZOE5iZqPXIBB

And War Canoes of various cultures.

I've started on the first six units.

Unusually for me I'm assembling and painting these on the unit bases. It makes sense to glue the parts of the galley to the base at the same time I glue them together. This worked well for the test galley and I'm pretty sure the galleys are widely enough spread on the bases that painting won't be a problem.

I've painted the test galley in four different colours/styles to see how they look. The plan is to have some galleys plain wood, others will have primary and/or secondary areas painted in various colours. The primary areas are the prow and bow as well as the stern post the stern. The secondary area is gunwale (upper edge of the side of the galley).

(https://i.imgur.com/Ib1hJgW.jpg)
This side aft is plain wood with a blue gunwale, forward is plain wood, with eye

(https://i.imgur.com/cxCYLB1.jpg)
This side forward is a red prow and bow, with eye, aft is a blue stern post and green gunwale

The sea is some spare blue paint I had. I will match the main blue of my sea mat that will be on its way from Europe soon.

I'm interested in feedback on the painting.

I'm planning to use the following colours; ivory, blue, yellow, brown, green, red, black grey.

I wonder if I need stronger colours particularly for the blue and green. They work well on the crew's tunics but are perhaps too muted on the galleys given the small areas painted.

"I wonder if I need stronger colours particularly for the blue and green. They work well on the crew's tunics but are perhaps too muted on the galleys given the small areas painted."

Have you considered posting a few pics (hint hint) and perhaps a poll so we can help you with your quandary?
 :D

The two pictures above feature the blue and green in question both on tunics and ships :-\

I've assembled the first 6 units (18 galleys) and painted the first coat on the hulls :) 
I'm using two thin coats on the plywood ships
I've very pleased with the look of the galleys on the bases, the spacing has worked out as planned :)  #:-S 

Second batch of 6 units have the hulls based and the required parts cut out, some need a bit of sanding to improve them :!!
They will get done tomorrow as I have a game this evening

One paper I read (while researching something else) said that if you collected all the ship colours from Mediterranean mosaics, then a Roman fleet would have been as technicolour as a tarts boudoir...

QuoteThe two pictures above feature the blue and green in question both on tunics and ships :-\

I think more colour then - the deck and the oars are the main areas visible (in the photos) and are plain wood. The spot colours on the prow and stern kind of get lost.

Quote from: paulr on 20 June 2025, 05:28:58 AMThe two pictures above feature the blue and green in question both on tunics and ships :-\

Thanks! Had to drop my vpn to see them!  :-[
I actually think they look fine as presented.

When painting my Navwar Phoenician galleys I painted them brown all over then added colour to the prows but felt they looked rather dull so I painted the oars a slightly different brown from the hull and gave them a cream deck. Even though I doubt they holystoned the galley decks!

Accurate or not I think it makes them visually more interesting. YMMV!

(https://imageshack.com/i/pmhZCxM0j)

Here's mine from a good few years back
https://madlemmey.blogspot.com/2018/02/poseidons-warriors-first-game-romans-vs.html?m=1

Thanks all

QuoteOne paper I read (while researching something else) said that if you collected all the ship colours from Mediterranean mosaics, then a Roman fleet would have been as technicolour as a tarts boudoir...

I've seen several, less colourful, references to colourful ships

I'm using three different browns for the galleys and the same three for oars all randomly assigned so most times the hull & deck will be a different brown from the oars

I'm going with a stronger blue and green for the ships keeping the muted green & blue for tunics
(https://i.imgur.com/LmVQHDo.jpg)

My knowledge of these types of boats comes from watching Jason & the Argonauts and Troy, so excuse me if it's a stupid question, but don't they have masts & sails? And if so, isn't that the opportunity to add colour and difference?

Ancient galleys left their masts and sails ashore before going into action, unless they were merely planning to run for it.

The exceptions being the Hemiola and Tri-hemiola, which were mainly pirate ships.

If you rammed or were rammed with the mast stepped in all likelihood the mast would come crashing down on your own deck.

Mine have masts and sails, mostly to aid identification

Some of my thoughts

• They definitely look more colourful with sails, some of which had symbols on them
• As Ithoriel says historically they are more accurate without sails in battle. You are carrying less weight and have clearer decks
• The models are simpler to assemble & paint and are more robust without masts and sails
• LaserCast galleys don't come with masts (but Tim could probably cut you some based on the merchant ship masts he does)

I've finished painting the galleys of the first 6 units :)

I'm waiting until my sea mat gets here before I paint the bases. I want to match the colour of the mat

I've assembled and painted two coats on the hulls and oars of the galleys of the next 6 units :)

Reasonably happy with progress and pretty happy with the look of the galleys. They will look much better once washed and dry brush and when the sea is painted, at the moment the brown hulls and oars blend into the MDF bases

Painted most of the detail on the second 6 units :)
Need to finish the crew :!!

Assembled most of the next 6 units, ataphract triremes this time :)

This is all looking very exciting.  On the question raised earlier about which way round the rowers face, my recollection from the reports of the Olympias trials is that while the rowers would normally be seated facing the stern, it was perfectly possible, with training, for the rowers to change facing - moving back a row of seats, not turning round in place - and row in the opposite direction.  The ship would go in reverse almost as fast as it would go forwards.  This would explain how the 'anastrophe' manoeuvre, rowing towards the enemy and then backing away, trying to lure them to break line, may have worked.

I now have my Lasercraft items and I'm very impressed.

The lembi are tiny but will be very useful. I'm still debating whether to use the corvi on the quinquiremes, they were so short lived that I will probably leave them off. The single deceres will get an escort of a couple of lembi on the same base.

The Roman marching camp is just brilliant, the trench around the camp is cut into the base. The siege train contains a siege tower, two rams and multiple catapults of several designs. More artillery than I expect ever to need .... but who knows.

As well as the items I ordered there was a little pack included containing a fishing village, a strip of wagons and a strip with three onagers and some crews.

If the gout in my fingers would just let up I could see if I can do half as well as Paul with these.

I've said it before, but sympathy with the gout. The condition is no joke.

I've made good progress on these, I've finished painting the first 12 units of triremes :)

I've assembled 12 units of ataphract triremes and nine units of penteconters :)

Triremes have two base coats on hulls and oars  :)

First base coat done on the hulls of the penteconters :)

Once my sea cloth arrives, I'll know what blue I need to paint the bases

Primary and secondary trin colours done on the triremes :)  :)

Second hull base coat and both base coats done on the oars of the penteconters  :)  :)  :)

Details done on the triremes :)

Primary and secondary trim and details done on the penteconters :)  :)  :)

Touch ups done on triremes & penteconters  :)  :)

12 more units of triremes prepared and assembled :)

First base coat on hulls done :)

Second base coat on hulls and both base coats on oars done  :)  :)  :)

Primary and secondary trim done :)  :)

My sea mat arrived yesterday :-bd I'm really pleased with how it looks :-bd  =D>  :-bd  =D>  :-bd

Due to train disruptions (ice on the overhead powerlines) I worked from home today

Popped out at lunch time and bought dark blue and light blue paint that would match the main two colours on the mat

Painted some test bases with the dark blue, not quite the match I was hoping for :-\

After work popped out and got the other dark blue I had been considering, a much better match #:-S  :-bd

Painted the other side of the test bases and will try some wave effects this weekend

Looking forward to see the result!  :)

Quote from: Ray Rivers on 25 July 2025, 12:29:29 PMLooking forward to see the result!  :)

So am I  :-SS

Tested wave effects and I'll be dry brushing them

Washed the fully painted galleys

I've been focusing on painting the bases of the fully painted galleys :!!

I've done the first 16 units and have done the edges and two base coats of the next 17

Here a few pictures of some of the results on my new sea mat

(https://i.imgur.com/zfnSMYc.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/iwejT4u.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/wHPFbHG.jpg)

The mat has a 10cm grid to help give a sense of scale

Your ships are looking good, Navarchos!

Excellent match between mat and bases.

Easy to distinguish the aphract and cataphract ships even at that scale.


(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fres.cloudinary.com%2Fteepublic%2Fimage%2Fprivate%2Fs--BLFIJy91--%2Ft_Preview%2Ft_watermark_lock%2Fb_rgb%3A191919%2Cc_limit%2Cf_auto%2Ch_630%2Cq_90%2Cw_630%2Fv1606937481%2Fproduction%2Fdesigns%2F16804503_0.jpg&f=1&nofb=1&ipt=ea379709621ff00851602cb4c426efc6c286fa9310d99d8d1ec8f91f7fe82529)

Those look brilliant  8)

Lovely work 8). Personally though, having the oars in different alignment to the bow of the ships would do my head in when looking at them on the table!

QuoteLovely work 8). Personally though, having the oars in different alignment to the bow of the ships would do my head in when looking at them on the table!

And yet having each ship at the same point in the stroke as all the others would be as bizarre as having each man in a battalion in exactly the same pose at one time .... oh! wait!  :)

Really like them!
That you went to the trouble of making subtle changes in the tunic colours of the oarsmen is impressive attention to detail.  :-bd

QuoteLovely work 8). Personally though, having the oars in different alignment to the bow of the ships would do my head in when looking at them on the table!

Thanks, I've added wakes at the stern and behind each set of oars to assist with orientation.
Also, in action each unit will have a small label protruding at the rear showing side, squadron and key stats for the unit.

QuoteAnd yet having each ship at the same point in the stroke as all the others would be as bizarre as having each man in a battalion in exactly the same pose at one time .... oh! wait!  :)

My preference is for variation of pose particularly when actions aren't synchronised, for examples horses and the stroke of different galleys.
I'm happy to have the same (or similar) poses when things are synchronised, for example men marching in step or the stroke on a single galley ;) 

During the week I painted some 2mm MDF bases for some markers, glued labels to them today

Painted crew tunics on a couple of batches of galleys :)  :)

Cut out and painted the edges of label cards for a test game (or two) next weekend :)  :)

Glued printed labels to the label cards :)

The label cards are cardboard and go under the units with the printed label protruding at the rear showing side, squadron and key stats for the unit.

12 units of Cataphract triremes completed so far. Plus the 2mm MDF markers

(https://i.imgur.com/6ve99Cs.jpg)

12 units of Aphract triremes completed so far

(https://i.imgur.com/pkXQuir.jpg)

9 units of Penteconters (all I'm planning on)

(https://i.imgur.com/ZQn5zEw.jpg)

Very cool

Amazing progress and great looking! The BRBC bases work really well.  :-bd

Quote from: paulr on 02 August 2025, 03:39:11 AMDuring the week I painted some 2mm MDF bases for some markers, glued labels to them today

Painted crew tunics on a couple of batches of galleys :)  :)

Cut out and painted the edges of label cards for a test game (or two) next weekend :)  :)

Glued printed labels to the label cards :)

The label cards are cardboard and go under the units with the printed label protruding at the rear showing side, squadron and key stats for the unit.

Most impressive: which rules will you be using for the fleet actions?

After not being able to find a set of rules that I like that are pitched at large battles I'm helping write a set based on a set of Ancient and Medieval land rules.

They will let me play Salamis 480 BC with 20 galleys per unit/base. For smaller actions a base could represent 5, 10, or 15 galleys.

They get their first, non-solo, play test with my regular gaming group this coming weekend  :-SS
Galleys and labels are ready to go :)
I'm looking forward to some useful honest feedback

Final details done on next two batches of triremes, washes and touch ups to do

Interesting.

At the last SoA weekend, I understand there were four different sets of rules being tested, all for fleet actions.

https://alkedominis.wixsite.com/blog/oi-navarcoi has one of those.

Thanks hammurabi70

I've downloaded the rules and will have a good look at them :) 

From a quick skim they are pitched at a similar level to what I am working on. They seem to cover similar tactics and issues :-\

Some interesting stuff on the blog and I recognise several of the battles, one just from the picture  :-B

I've finished the last two batches of triremes :)  :)

Nearly finished preparing the next two batches of triremes, just need to finish sanding the bevel on the last of the oars  :!! then glue them in place

I've managed to play 6 test games with our regular group and they have gone very well :)  :)  :)

The first surprise was that about halfway through the first test game my opponents were quoting the activation and save modifiers back to me

The second surprise was that we finished the first test game in about 45 minutes, it flowed really smoothly and felt like the level of naval battle I was after

We played on three different evening and have had time for two games each evening :)  :)

We used the same forces for each game, each played differently, and both sides have had wins

The play test group in the UK has also played several games and are enjoying them. Based on feedback from them we have made a few tweaks to the rules in the last couple of games. We also introduced some islands and they added tactical decisions.

Forces for the test games

Athenians	green labels
Red Squadron	5 units of Skilled Light Triremes
Blue Squadron	4 units of Skilled Light Triremes
Yellow Squadron	1 unit of Skilled Light Triremes, 4 units of Trained Pentakonters

Spartans	blue labels
Red Squadron	4 units of Trained Heavy Triremes, 2 units of Trained Pentakonters
Blue Squadron	4 units of Trained Heavy Triremes, 2 units of Trained Pentakonters
Yellow Squadron	3 units of Trained Heavy Triremes, 1 unit of Trained Pentakonters

Here are a few pictures I grabbed during the first four games

Game 1
Initial attacks; Athenians on the left, Spartans on the right
(https://i.imgur.com/e5somyy.jpg)

Pressure mounting on the Athenian flanks
(https://i.imgur.com/MrVHkn6.jpg)

Athenian left flank overwhelmed by Spartan boarding attacks
(https://i.imgur.com/uiaBhSQ.jpg)

Game 2
Manouevering for advantage during the approach
(https://i.imgur.com/YEXVQzE.jpg)

Followed by swirling melees
(https://i.imgur.com/f9Muv2Y.jpg)

Game 3
Initial clashes
(https://i.imgur.com/lWBbjau.jpg)

The Athenian left has successfully completed multiple diekplus attacks, breaking through the Spartan line. They haven't managed any anastrophe, turning 180 degrees and attacking the Spartans from the rear
(https://i.imgur.com/TuLtRHV.jpg)

The Athenians have now turned 180 degrees and the Spartan triremes are running away making room to manoeuvre while their pentekonters launch a flank attack
(https://i.imgur.com/bRkbLa8.jpg)

The Spartan senior admiral is isolated in the centre and forms kyklos to hold off the gathering Athenians
(https://i.imgur.com/PzunZ1Z.jpg)

Game 4
The Spartans have broken the Athenian line a couple of places
(https://i.imgur.com/cpezysh.jpg)

For those who haven't guessed from the various clues I'm working Simon Miller on these rules, based on his To the Strongest Ancient and Medieval rules

As our group are keen For King & Parliament players, which use very similar mechanics, these were an obvious rules choice

After last nights two games the Spartians have decided that they will stick to land warfare, let the Athenians mess about in boats if they want to  ;)     

Looking good, Paul!

I like the kyklos formation marker.

Though I'm not sure the Spartans ever achieved the skill to pull it off successfully. Though I am about to embark on a deep dive down the rabbit hole of Ancient Greek naval warfare that may prove me entirely wrong!

QuoteAfter last nights two games the Spartans have decided that they will stick to land warfare, let the Athenians mess about in boats if they want to  ;) 

Don't worry Peter, the plague will sort these uppity Athenians out if the Spartans don't manage it. :d :d :d

QuoteLooking good, Paul!

I like the kyklos formation marker.

Though I'm not sure the Spartans ever achieved the skill to pull it off successfully. Though I am about to embark on a deep dive down the rabbit hole of Ancient Greek naval warfare that may prove me entirely wrong!

It's a bit easier with about 10 galleys than with a whole fleet, even the 40-50 Corinthians at Patras in 429 BC

After last weekend the Spartan high command decided that their navy needed some motivation  ;)