#1 son wanted to do moderns yesterday so I dug out my 1:300 Soviets and put them up against my Dutch (the first army I ever bought!). I remember my first game with those, back in 88, the Soviet player being shocked that a) the Dutch had Leopard 2's, and b) the recce platoon had a tank in and c) that tank was faster than his BRDM's. (That was the old very complicated 1:1 set everyone seemed to use back then, might have been by Bruce Rea Taylor.
Anyway, we played MSH yesterday. A trip down memory lane. Specifically the lane with no QRS in the rules.
Because I hadn't played them in 30 years I kept things simple. Dutch had 3 companies of Leopards, 1 of YPR765 ifv's. Soviets had 3 BATTALIONS of T72s, 1 of BMPs
Turn 1. I move on
Turn 2. 1 battalion moves into range of company on hill. 2 dead T72s. We find out that Leopards hit T72s on 2+, kill on a 3+. It is only automatic miss on a roll of 1 that saves me.
Turn 3. 2nd battalion moves into range of company in woods. More dead T72s. Tanks on hill score enough kills to force their target to make morale test: failed, battalion removed from game. Soviets bring on reserves to reinforce the attack that is happening.
Turn 4. Battalion advancing on town slows as now engaged so doesn't gave to move at least half speed.
Lots of searching trying to find out how moving affects shooting. It must as Leopards have a marker for gun stabilisation. More dead Russians, 2nd battalion runs away, with just 2 of 10 platoons remaining. Find that T72s v Leopards are firing at -1, so can't kill a Leopard platoon with one shot, needs them to have already put them in "confused " state, on a 5 or 6, then again before they can reform. Also learn the ATGW process, as I have accidentally included a couple of Janguar vehicles; obviously attached to the Dutch by the Federal Republic.
Turn 5. Now unopposed Leopards on northern flank decide to move forward to catch Soviets in a cross fire.
Turn 6. We call the game. Soviet kills; 1 tank unit. Dutch kills; dunno, lots (15ish?) with 2 battalions retreated.
Game takeaways.
1) needs a qrs.
2) Nato, outnumbered but very good.
3) my dice rolling is #@%£
4) needs a qrs.
Sounds a lot of fun, but annoying with no QRS.
Fun? FUN?
I turn up, he kills me.
Rinse repeat! :'( :'(
But that's out lot in life, to lose to offspring and Sunjester.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 25 May 2025, 07:08:47 AM. (That was the old very complicated 1:1 set everyone seemed to use back then, might have been by Bruce Rea Taylor.
Challenger- my friends insisted on playing it
Quote from: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 25 May 2025, 02:33:50 PMBut that's our lot in life, to lose to offspring and Sunjester.
True... true. Usually I go easy on him. Yesterday I couldn't... :'(
Quote from: flamingpig0 on 25 May 2025, 05:48:28 PMChallenger- my friends insisted on playing it
That's the bunny!
No worse than WRG Armored Warfare 1950-1985 -
That is hardly an endorsement...
There are a few QRS out there, I'm guessing they moved to group.io when the Spearhead lists were moved.
If you want one PM me and I can send you SH and/or MSH QRS
One bit of advice for the Soviets, ARTILLERY
Moving direct fire happens after stationary direct fire. Units with stabilised weapons move 2/3 and still fire rather than 1/2
There is an optional morale system where units break on 1-2, retreats 2 moves on 3-4 & continues on 5-6. Slightly less brutal.
Yes, I eventually found the 'moving fire' rules. I've PM'ed for the QRS, thanks.
There is DEFINATLY going to be Soviet artillery next time - this was just a first attempt in 30 years, so I wanted to keep it very simple. I like that moral system - is it just that, or is there anything further.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 25 May 2025, 07:23:15 PMThat is hardly an endorsement...
Perhaps its time for you to but Cold War Commander 2
QuoteYes, I eventually found the 'moving fire' rules. I've PM'ed for the QRS, thanks.
There is DEFINATLY going to be Soviet artillery next time - this was just a first attempt in 30 years, so I wanted to keep it very simple. I like that moral system - is it just that, or is there anything further.
QRS's sent
The optional morale is described at the end of the morale section in MSH (p34).
Quote from: Last Hussar on 25 May 2025, 07:09:23 PMTrue... true. Usually I go easy on him. Yesterday I couldn't... :'(
That's the bunny!
Back in the day someone organised a Challenger competition using the " Third world" army lists
Out of 12 competitors there ere 8 Israeli lists
It was a great spectacle if you wanted to see companies of Merkavas fighting it out.
;D ;D
When I started everybody did Russia, US, UK or West Germany. I did the Dutch just to have something different. I didn't know they had Leopard 2s until after I bought them. Ah the pre Internet days before it was easy to research stuff. You just bought an army pack from the Guardroom...
Frontal assault on Leopard 2s in cover (hull down or in woods) with T-72s and no artillery is always going to end this way in MSH.
BTW, no T-72s in GSFG ever I'm afraid, so you must have been using East Germans in that battle :-)
Found this after a quick search.
QuoteThe GSFG T-64s (misidentified for T-72s)...
And mine are tiny, no wonder I didn't know! I assume there were no Soviet T72 in western Europe then?
I'll just have to class them as T64s then!
None in the Northag area, but in the Leningrad MD and Checko forces. Also be some in the more favoured Warpact armies.
Double checked. Mine are definitely T72 - the IR is on the right of the gun. I will just have to ignore that (I have to put on my x3.5 painting glasses to see it!) and call them T64s.
Further.
Having checked the MSH stats, there is no difference, apart from the T64 has a gun launched missile... which is no better than the gun (or even worse depending if I am fielding the '78 version, or the '85).
Time to read the Arty rules ;D ;D
Combat differances between the 2 are minimal. Only very few 64's had the missile, T64B. All in service would be A's or B's the first model (T64) had the 115mm gun. All 64's had a multifuel engine which was worse than that in Cheiftain. Most 64's were built in Ukraine.
Nah, I think mine were build in Liverpool...
Thought Tankograd was nearer to Kyvi. Nearest tank factory to Liverpool was in Preston, and clsed in late 40's
Ahem!
https://www.thetankfactory.co.uk/
All I know is I got them from the Guardroom in Dunstable in 88 or 89.
Quote from: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 26 May 2025, 01:13:02 PMAhem!
https://www.thetankfactory.co.uk/
OK why a link to a film studio ?
Regarding the use of T-72's... I archived a post from the MSH Yahoo group many years ago to justify mine :) Here is an extract:
"...
The GSFG was an administrative organisation, and not a combat one.
The organisation included forces that in wartime would be subordinated to three
different fronts.
These fronts included formations from the Soviet and Warsaw Pact armies.
The mobilisation for war would not have begun in Germany, but in the Soviet
Union. That is, the lower readiness category divisions would have commenced
mobilisation and transportation to the forward areas somewhat a month before the
commencement of the offensive.
The forward divisions in the offensive would likely to have come from the lower
readiness units, and therefore would almost certainly have included T-72s coming
from the Moscow and Belorussian MDs among others.
..."
Be interested to hear other opinions, either for or against!
Cheers,
Pete
I've just tried to find basis of my labelling; 61st Guards Regiment (it's tank). I must have taken this from somewhere, but I have no idea where. :-\
61st Guards Tank Regiment was part of the 10th Guards Tank Division which was itself part of 3rd Army under Group of Soviet Forces Germany.
https://www.ww2.dk/new/army/td/10gvtd.htm (https://www.ww2.dk/new/army/td/10gvtd.htm)
3rd Army was expected to be the main opponent for BAOR wasn't it?
Cheers.
Quote from: Orcs on 25 May 2025, 07:22:27 PMNo worse than WRG Armored Warfare 1950-1985 -
I have a fondness for those but that may be because they were the second "proper" set of wargame rules I owned.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 26 May 2025, 09:54:48 AMFurther.
Having checked the MSH stats, there is no difference, apart from the T64 has a gun launched missile... which is no better than the gun (or even worse depending if I am fielding the '78 version, or the '85).
Time to read the Arty rules ;D ;D
You should not be using the original MSH datacard for the Soviets if you can avoid it. John Moher authorised a replacement which has more correct stats lines (for example, the original MSH datacard doesn't even give the stock T-64 a 115mm gun!)
Anyway, for GSFG in 1980s you have a choice of T-64A, T-64B, T-64BV, T-80B or T-80BV. (The BV variants from 1985 on only.) The CGF in Czechoslovakia had T-72A.