Curious as to what the significance is of off-table 25 pndrs in British lists having the Smoke special ability? Do they still need to buy smoke assets? How are the benefited compared to guns that don't have this ability?
thanks, Richard
Hi guys, any responses to my query? Seems to have been lost in the smoke. :)
Yes
They need to buy Smoke assets
thanks - but then what is the reason for calling out "Smoke" under the Abilities column?
Quote from: richafricanus on 29 March 2025, 08:59:30 PMthanks - but then what is the reason for calling out "Smoke" under the Abilities column?
To indicate that they did fire Smoke and so you can buy if you want to.
Guns which don't have Smoke in the Abilities column (or Illumination etc.) cannot buy those types of ammo.
Yikes ! I have missed this entirely, so to fire smoke you need both purchased smoke assets and off table artillery marked with "smoke"
Quote from: Amra on 02 April 2025, 11:45:56 AMYikes ! I have missed this entirely, so to fire smoke you need both purchased smoke assets and off table artillery marked with "smoke"
Yes - or on-table Artillery marked as being able to fire Smoke (& purchase Smoke ammo for them).
There are a couple of threads on the matter of Assets (ammunition) on the forum.
Cheers
Mark
But, the top of p49 says "all off-table artillery units...may fire smoke" , no mention of the need for a special ability
So , for example, the Finns can purchase smoke as an asset but can't use it ?
Is there any where in the rules where this is clear ?
Quote from: Amra on 03 April 2025, 12:56:30 AMBut, the top of p49 says "all off-table artillery units...may fire smoke" , no mention of the need for a special ability
So , for example, the Finns can purchase smoke as an asset but can't use it ?
Is there any where in the rules where this is clear ?
As it states on P49, all off-table artillery may fire Smoke, but only if they have Smoke assets that they can purchase and these have been purchased.
NB: there are a number of cross-over threads talking about munitions and asset on the Forum.
The rules as they pertain to Cold War Commander (for example) are a lot more specific and complex than in BKC, to reflect the diversity of the ammunition types available. In CWC every type of gun on or off-table has been given its full compliment of ammo that it usually fired, for both on & off table units. In BKC, this has not been done, partly because only a couple of types of ammo were widely available - HE & Smoke.
So if a list has 1 Smoke asset that 1 Smoke asset can be purchased, and that asset can be allocated either to a single on-table or a single off-table gun (with the obvious caveat that on-table AA guns and usually AT guns don't fire Smoke) or as part of a preliminary bombardment. Once it is fired, it is lost.
Generally, the over use of Smoke was a real problem with earlier versions of BKC (& CWC) particularly in 'pick-up' games. It ruins the game for one side or the other and generally was not the decisive factor in historical battles that many players think it should be. BKCIV has therefore reduced its availability to better reflect its use in the game - this is primarily a game-play mechanism.
If you are playing a historical reenactment of a particular battle, using OOBs, then obviously you can apply Smoke ammunition as you see appropriate.
The intention with BKC was always to try and keep things simple anyway. There are probably off-table gun types that were never issued with Smoke ammo, or so little as to make their use ineffective, but the way the off-table guns work in BKC is that they are generally grouped into broad categories (so the fact that a 60mm gun had some but a 70mm didn't is ignored as both are categorized as 'Light Guns'.
Hope that clears things up.
Cheers
Mark
Bottom of P75 talks about buying Assets.
Cheers
Mark
Thanks Mark ,
I get restricting smoke for gaming purposes but you haven't addressed why the clear rule on p 49 is subordinate to a special ability ( and how anyone is supposed to know that) , also what happens in the case of lists that have smoke assets but no way to deliver it
Quote from: Amra on 04 April 2025, 12:47:23 AMThanks Mark ,
I get restricting smoke for gaming purposes but you haven't addressed why the clear rule on p 49 is subordinate to a special ability ( and how anyone is supposed to know that) , also what happens in the case of lists that have smoke assets but no way to deliver it
Is there a list which has Smoke assets and no way to deliver it?
P49 is not subordinate to the lists - I have just clarified that. If there is/was any confusion it is between BKC & CWC.
Almost all the army lists have a capacity for purchasing smoke assets , but nothing with the "smoke" special ability
This is fine if you just read p49 "all off-table artillery units..may fire smoke.."
But you're saying the "Special Ability " cancels that , so how do the Americans in NW Europe, all the Italian armies and many more use the smoke assets in their lists ?
QuoteTo indicate that they did fire Smoke and so you can buy if you want to.
Guns which don't have Smoke in the Abilities column (or Illumination etc.) cannot buy those types of ammo.
This is a huge change in typical understanding.
I've just had a re-read.
Smoke seems to refer to 3 different things
1) AFV smoke (p15) which is referenced by the Smoke special rule and is localised smoke mortars or other mechanisms (I think the Russians used fuel on hot exhausts) producing a 1 unit smoke marker on the friendly unit.
2) Smoke special rule - which seems to refer to direct fired Smoke placing a 1 unit smoke marker on an enemy unit. This seems quite rare on the lists. No idea if or how this interacts with Smoke assets.
3) Smoke Asset fired by off table artillery filling a barrage template. This is commonly available on lists - and I didn't think the Smoke special rule was needed for this.
For Off-table support the only units I am currently seeing with Smoke listed are British ones (edit and Neblewerfers). Despite virtually all lists having Smoke Assets available.
Quote from: fred. on 05 April 2025, 07:02:35 AMThis is a huge change in typical understanding.
I've just had a re-read.
Smoke seems to refer to 3 different things
1) AFV smoke (p15) which is referenced by the Smoke special rule and is localised smoke mortars or other mechanisms (I think the Russians used fuel on hot exhausts) producing a 1 unit smoke marker on the friendly unit.
2) Smoke special rule - which seems to refer to direct fired Smoke placing a 1 unit smoke marker on an enemy unit. This seems quite rare on the lists. No idea if or how this interacts with Smoke assets.
3) Smoke Asset fired by off table artillery filling a barrage template. This is commonly available on lists - and I didn't think the Smoke special rule was needed for this.
For Off-table support the only units I am currently seeing with Smoke listed are British ones (edit and Neblewerfers). Despite virtually all lists having Smoke Assets available.
P49 is clear and over rides all other rules - any off table artillery can fire smoke.
But you must have Smoke assets available & purchased to be able to fire Smoke.
AFV generated smoke - eg. Smoke dispensers or fuel injected into engine systems was rare but is available to all MBTs specifically.
Smoke ammo rounds were available to AFVs/MBTs primarily and you don't need to purchase these, but they do need to be indicated in the Notes column.
On-table smoke for Artillery must be purchased and is limited.
None of these are a big change from BKVII. They are possible a clarification, but all are certainly the way I have played it for years.
Cheers
Mark
Thanks Mark - but you miss the main point - this note of yours
QuoteTo indicate that they did fire Smoke and so you can buy if you want to.
Guns which don't have Smoke in the Abilities column (or Illumination etc.) cannot buy those types of ammo.
Which says units must have the Smoke option, to fire smoke, but hardly any off-table artillery has this (from my limited checking just 25pdr and Neblewerfers).
British 5.5", 3" mortars, Us & German 105mm & 15cm all fired smoke...
81 & 82mm & 130mm mortars all have it too..
☁️ ☁️ ☁️
(https://i.imgur.com/6qCSmUq.jpeg)
Not on the rules I have
Quote from: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 06 April 2025, 07:35:15 PMBritish 5.5", 3" mortars, Us & German 105mm & 15cm all fired smoke...
☁️ ☁️ ☁️
And all of the above are off-table artillery and so can fire Smoke, as per P49.
Smoke ammo is a purchased Asset in BKCIV as I had many representations from play-testers stating that the 'free' allocation of Smoke ammo was ruining the game. Also, the fact that smoke ammo was not universally available, even to units with weapons that could fire Smoke (such as the 81mm/82mm mortars below), made it sensible that Smoke ammo had to be deliberately purchased. NB the 130mm mortar should be an off-table Art only - so can fore Smoke, as can the 120mm American 'Chemical' mortar.
81 & 82mm & 130mm all had it too.. yes ... I am not debating that ... but as I stated earlier in the thread - BKC lists are not like CWC lists. I did not go through every unit of artillery and mortars in all the lists to specify which had Smoke ammo issued as standard and which didn't, and in which campaign they used it and in which they didn't.
If you want that level of detail you need to splash-out and buy the excellent Micro-mark lists.
Thanks
Mark
Focusing on Off Table Artillery in BKC
1) Assets for Smoke is fine
2) Off table being able to fire smoke as per p49 is fine.
3) But why do a few off table units have Smoke listed as a special rule (see screen shot above)? There really aren't many of these.
4) And what does your comment on the 31st March that I have quoted twice about Smoke mean?
Quote(https://i.imgur.com/6qCSmUq.jpeg)
Not on the rules I have
Yes, Fred? And your point is what exactly?
All are off-table units - so the blanket ruling on Off-table artillery firing Smoke applies.
The two rocket launchers have Smoke against them specifically, because an un-named 'pedant' during the proof reading and playtesting stage, insisted that rocket-launcher are not 'artillery' ... so I put it in.
TBF folks - the rules are clear -
ALL OFF-TABLE ARTILLERY CAN FIRE SMOKE (as per P49) - if your list has Smoke Assets and you have bought those Smoke Assets.
Thank you
Quote from: fred. on 06 April 2025, 08:55:02 PM4) And what does your comment on the 31st March that I have quoted twice about Smoke mean?
Which quotes Fred?
QuoteTo indicate that they did fire Smoke and so you can buy if you want to.
Guns which don't have Smoke in the Abilities column (or Illumination etc.) cannot buy those types of ammo.
I have already explained Fred ... I have a number of threads running on Smoke between CWC & BKC (lord knows why everybody gets so fixated on the darn stuff - TBF) . In CWC the lists were created in a way that meant that all/most units which 'could' fire Smoke ammo had it designated as such in the lists - regardless of whether they were on or off-table. This was primarily because a lot of Cold War games were played with 'what iff' type scenarios.
In BKC - primarily as I was 'recovering' the rules and list from the BKCIII issue - the lists were made a lot simpler. Also, in BKC it was clear from player feedback that the indiscriminate and massed use of Smoke ammo was making the game almost unplayable. Hence the availability of Smoke was limited/restricted.
But if you want to buy Smoke assets for your on-table 81mm/82mm mortars or whatever (regardless of the fact that mainly Smoke ammo was issued as a rarity and for a specific reason), then just go ahead and do so by adding an extra 5pts to the cost of the unit. Simple solution.
The BKC/CWC/FWC army lists are only a guide - they are not (repeat NOT) designed to play competition games with (like DBM/A, MeG, FoG, ADLG etc.). Players are encouraged to undertake their own research and ideally use historical OOBs.
The list are for quick, pick-up 'club-night' friendly games.
If you want 'serious' lists, as stated above then the excellent Micro-Mark lists are available to be bought.
Many thanks
Mark
:)
Sorry, didn't mean to stir.