Gang.
Tell me. Has anyone in history ever fired an arrow from (what is to me) the wrong side of the bow.*
A right handed archer would always position the arrow on the right side of the bow..(as he looks at it)..never cross over to the left of the bow, so the arrow would go over his left wrist on release, would he ? 8-}
Asking for a friend, who is mending/ 'tarting up' some ancients so that a miniatures firm in Middlesbrough can make up some new moulds.
Cheers - Phil.
*Apart from an archer who didn't have a clue. :D
As a former archery instructor with two daughters who do archery...
For a right hamder.
Hold your left hand out flat,knuckles upwards and grasp your bow horizontally
The arrow goes over the bow, onto the flat and rests on either an arrow rest or the upper/outside of your left hand as you 'knock' your arrow to the bowstring.
Then you rotate your left hand to the left, lifting the bow end while then pulling back the bowstring with your right
Most common learner error is to over rotate and the arrow falls off to the left. This avoids most of that.
If you bare bow (no sights or arrow rest) and shoot from the right side of your bow you end up grazing the top of your thumb with the arrow and are far more likely to drop your arrow
Left handers reverse all the above.
Ta, Will ! :)
So you DO cross over on top of the left wrist ? :o
Somehow, the position of the arrows on the models my friend :P is working on, look wrong.
Good...he won't have to grind the old arrow off and put a new one on. :D
I'll swear my friend had the arrow the other side when he had a go at field archery.
Mind you, that WAS almost 50 years ago...and he is getting senile.
Cheers - Phil
I've done archery a few times - and had to google some images to check!
I suspect why it looks wrong on small scale figures is that the arrow is massively over scale, and probably the figure isn't as side on as most archers are. IRL it looks less of a cross over of the left wrist, as more along the line of the left arm.
QuoteGang.
Tell me. Has anyone in history ever fired an arrow from (what is to me) the wrong side of the bow.*
A right handed archer would always position the arrow on the right side of the bow..(as he looks at it)..never cross over to the left of the bow, so the arrow would go over his left wrist on release, would he ? 8-}
Asking for a friend, who is mending/ 'tarting up' some ancients so that a miniatures firm in Middlesbrough can make up some new moulds.
Cheers - Phil.
*Apart from an archer who didn't have a clue. :D
Not sure whether I have your description correct.
But I'll chip in anyway.
Most national archery techniques will have right-handers sending the arrow to the left side of the bow.
Traditional Mongol and Korean archers placed the arrow on the right side.
Modern Mongol shooters align the arrow to the left when shooting on foot.
I don't know when or why they changed.
Amber-Midthunder.jpg
Amber Midthunder, from the movie Prey. The way she holds her right hand seems . . . odd?
Many thanks, Chaps ! :)
Fascinating, as I've certainly got it at least half wrong.
Steve's info about Mongol archers 'switching sides' is really fascinating !
My memory is telling me that I fired the arrow from the right side of the bow...this may well be false.
I do remember (I'm absolutely sure) that the chap who showed me and Von how to fire a bow brought two bows around.
His own, and his wife's. I had trouble with the pull on HIS bow (60lbs ??)..but his wife's was OK. (40lbs.)
The other thing I remember was that I spurned the wrist guard, as I didn't think I'd be firing enough arrows to warrant it.
I had quite a swollen left wrist/forearm the next morning.....Does that show which side of the bow I was firing the arrow ?
Again..Asking for a fiend. :D
Western archers using a three finger split grip: Looking down range arrow is on left of bow (when string drawn by right hand).
Eastern archers (using a thumb ring to draw and release in a thumb and forefinger grip) arrow on right side of bow. (drawn by right hand).
The reason being the different grips impart a slightly different travel on the string when released.
Haven't done any archery for some years but I didn't place the arrow on a different side for field vice target archery.
As for string slap bruising your forearm I suspect you would get it with either style, but I've never tried shooting a lot of arrows eastern style. Western style certainly will bruise your forearm.
The woman in the picture for some reason has her hand upside down to a normal western grip and release but this is not a thumb and forefinger eastern grip. Neither is it a native American pinch grip which would generally place the arrow on the opposite side to how she has it (ie on the right like an eastern style). The latter was was not a universal native American grip and there are many variants among the native nations.
On my modern recurve bow, the arrow goes on the left hand side for a right handed shooter (note you DO NOT fire a bow!). Holding the bow just now, I'm not sure how I would be able to hold the arrow in place on the right hand side before loosing it, without it falling off. I might be able to hold it in place with my thumb, but doubt it.
If you learn to hold you left arm correctly, you do not need a gaurd to prevent the string from slapping your wrist, but it takes a lot of practice and strength to be able to do this. A guard is therefore preferable, especially when having loosed say 20 arrows, as you get pretty tired by then.
Minor (& very pedantic) point - sorry.
But you shoot a bow whereas you fire a musket or gun.
If you fire a bow, it will only keep you warm for a relatively brief period of time ;)
On a related point there are plenty of medieval illustrations showing longbows (large self bows) with the arrow shaft on the right-hand side. However, that might just be an artistic convention, as its easier to depict it that way.
Also, you rarely see wrist-guards in medieval representations of archers, but many actual examples have been found, so period paintings and illustrations are not that reliable.
There is an interesting illustration in a C15th book showing the Martyrdom of St. Anthony (always a great source of period archery examples - due to him being martyred by being shot to death) in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York ( https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/368603 *) that shows 3 archers two of whom are using different sides of the bow to locate the arrow shaft.
*NB: this is a particularly nice illustration as it shows beautifully the systems of points (laces) used to attach the hose (tight trousers) to the doublet (jacket) and the fact that the rear sets of points were often left untied when the wearer was undertaking activities that required a lot of bending.
Other good examples are:
https://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/paintings/antonio-del-pollaiuolo-and-piero-del-pollaiuolo-the-martyrdom-of-saint-sebastian
https://www.meisterdrucke.ie/fine-art-prints/Hans-Holbein-the-Elder/1091029/Martyrdom-of-St-Sebastian,-by-Hans-Holbein-the-Elder.html
As these painting get later in the 'medieval' period and into the C16th, you get more crossbows and fewer bows. But the Antonio-del-Pollaiuolo painting has some great period detail, especially on crossbow mechanisms (and how they are drawn) and the quivers, on the ground, with the quarrel heads upright in the quivers. Also, the painting on the bows is very interesting, as it replicates similar painted Middle Eastern composite bows in various museums. The archers also have their arrows with the heads upright, rather than with the flights showing, which might be a way to stop the flights from getting damaged in bad weather.
Cheers
Mark
St Sebastian was the guy shot with arrows. ;)
Also caveat artistic accuracy generally re military detail.
All those medieval representations of Biblical scenes using soldiers in medieval costume is giving us a heads up they may not have been too bothered with the accurate depiction of military types.
Always wanting to help my fellow forumites, especially techno here is some information I have found ;)
Here are some pictures that may help if studied closely.
(https://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/2017/05/24/104440/85364010/arr1.jpg)
(https://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/2265415/85363814.jpg)
Note the Flight feather markings
(https://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/2265415/85363823.jpg)
THis is the correct stance when looking from behind
(https://cdn.ebaumsworld.com/mediaFiles/picture/2265415/85363835.jpg)
QuoteSt Sebastian was the guy shot with arrows. ;)
Also caveat artistic accuracy generally re military detail.
All those medieval representations of Biblical scenes using soldiers in medieval costume is giving us a heads up they may not have been too bothered with the accurate depiction of military types.
I think that artists tended to use military equipment that is in period for the date the painting was done, rather than for what was in use at the time the painting is depicting.
Quote from: Gwydion on 02 January 2025, 04:07:08 PMSt Sebastian was the guy shot with arrows. ;)
Also caveat artistic accuracy generally re military detail.
All those medieval representations of Biblical scenes using soldiers in medieval costume is giving us a heads up they may not have been too bothered with the accurate depiction of military types.
You are of course right about it being St. Sebastian. I was looking for other similar saintly deaths and had St. Anthony on my mind :D
You are right about the representations of biblical or scenes from antiquity in medieval paintings, but generally I've found that a lot of the later medieval/early renaissance paintings get more realistic in their contemporary representations as time progresses.
A few more interesting images below:
https://www.meisterdrucke.uk/fine-art-prints/Simon-Bening/877387/The-Martyrdom-of-Saint-Sebastian.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martyrdom_of_Saint_Sebastian_%28Signorelli%29
https://www.bridgemanimages.com/en/sergio-anelli/martyrdom-of-st-sebastian-by-unknown-artist-1430-15th-century-woodcut-on-paper/xylography/asset/943073
Sorry, I still haven't found the flight feather markings.
Hmmm ...
Think you may have to be more specific Techno. English longbow archers put the arrow to the inside, Japanese to the outside - as Gwydion states.
One hates to ask, but is that pad worn on the ladies' chests to avoid what one may call the Amazon problem?
(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/29/Professor_Inagaki_Genshiro.jpg/800px-Professor_Inagaki_Genshiro.jpg) (https://regex.info/i/JF7_106320-22_sm.jpg) (https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e1/Kyudo-Ky%C5%ABjutsu-Archer-Draws-Yumi.png/800px-Kyudo-Ky%C5%ABjutsu-Archer-Draws-Yumi.png) (https://i.ytimg.com/vi/94GKlAawTKQ/maxresdefault.jpg) (https://media.tacdn.com/media/attractions-splice-spp-674x446/11/e6/d4/69.jpg) (https://i.pinimg.com/564x/f1/af/82/f1af826dbf2bef9d9048ff44edda0e53.jpg) (https://archeryhistorian.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/Samurai-archer-1.jpg)
Just to be contrary...
"Fire" a bow has usage as early as the 14th century.
There is a guy on YouTube who does shorts about using a bow, and he has examples of having the arrow on both sides.
QuoteJust to be contrary...
"Fire" a bow has usage as early as the 14th century.
Clearly:
(https://m.media-amazon.com/images/M/MV5BMmNiYzA1NTctZWUzMS00MWI5LWJkOWYtYjQyZGU2NDQ3YzZlXkEyXkFqcGdeQXVyMTYzMDM0NTU@._V1_.jpg)
FSN , basically, yes.
Now, where is Nik with pictures of Kiera as an archer.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 02 January 2025, 08:17:01 PMJust to be contrary...
"Fire" a bow has usage as early as the 14th century.
Really? I'd love to see some evidence.
Vintners were using the word 'loose' (rather than fire or even shoot) to instruct bodies of english archers to shoot arrows in the C15th.
Somewhat related comment.....
Remember watching an episode of "Dogfights" many years ago about Phantoms (F-4's that is :P ) in Vietnam and one of the aircrew saying something very similar...."when you are engaging other aircraft you never say "fire" in a plane.....its always "shoot".".
I too would be interested in evidence for use of the word 'fire' being used in the sense of shooting an arrow from a bow prior to the idea of 'giving fire' to ignite the gunpowder in a projectile weapon.
(Actually I'd be quite interested to know of the first use of the term crossing over from firearms to bows- Ascham in his Toxophilus: The School of Shooting, 1545, mentions shooting a bow a lot (and talks of the loose)- he does use the word fire but only in relation to not letting your bow get near a fire, or setting the ends on fire to set fire to something shot at.
If there are mentions (not modern mistranslations) of medieval archers using the term 'fire a bow' in contemporary works let us know!
QuoteJust to be contrary...
"Fire" a bow has usage as early as the 14th century.
Source, please? I've tried in vain to find one, and I'm rather interested.
From memory it was always "knock, draw, loose" when I did field archery.
QuoteFSN , basically, yes.
Now, where is Nik with pictures of Kiera as an archer.
Here we go ...
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/37/1b/18/371b18db62a01d387c9ae65e35732f99.jpg)
Quote from: Steve J on 03 January 2025, 07:30:28 AMFrom memory it was always "knock, draw, loose" when I did field archery.
Nock, I'd guess.
Always thought the term fire was an abreivated version "Give Fire" used with the Hackbus etc.
I thought the term "fire" for sending a missile at the enemy was derived form putting fire to the primer or fuse of a gunpowder weapon. Prior to this why would you use "Fire" for bows, slings or spears.
QuoteNock, I'd guess.
You're right Alexander :-[ !
Quote from: FierceKitty on 03 January 2025, 11:01:26 AMNock, I'd guess.
Unless it was knocking on the bow for luck.
Lord Sam of Casablanca: Who sees Froggies?
Line of archers: We see Froggies.
Lord Sam of Casablanca: How many Froggies?
Line of archers: Lots of Froggies.
Lord Sam of Casablanca: But they will not linger if you take a finger and knock on bow.
(tock, tock, tock)
(Long shot: Lord de Strasser ordering his ninth champagne cocktail which he never drinks. Cut to Sieur Rick, slipping letters of transit under his brigandine.)
etc....