Hi
What, historically, was the density of pike in the ECW - that is distance from 'nose to nose' of the men?
The basic answer is nobody knows. I suspect that they were at roughly the same spacing as 18th and early 19th century infantry in close order.
We know Hellenistic pikes had different densities, depending on the situation. There's no reason to think the English were less intelligent, even if the pikeman was now the secondary type.
Drill books of the time exist except so does correspondence stating they were impossibly complex for the recruits of the time !!
If you assumed "order" {to fight} was 3ft between files and "open order" {to make formation changes} was 6 , you should not get any worthwhile disagreement. I believe they could spread out further if stood still under artillery fire but I don't recall the reference.
A lot of the wargame pics I see, and my own armies, have pikes more compact than that say 4 10mm figures on a 30mm wide base because "it looks right" and can contrast with musketeers.
As for ranks, the recommendation was supposed to be 6 deep but, given the popular habit of chopping your pike down to 12ft to make life easier, we had best assume no more than 2ft between ranks! I'm sure some drill sergeants happily made those who had chopped pikes move to the front.
As somebody who's done a bit of reenactment (in my time) I'd suggest that the depth between the ranks is actually as (if not more) important than the spacing of men in those ranks.
Pikes (& most polearms) need a lot of space between ranks to be used effectively.
We generally allowed at least 3 foot between ranks (ideally 4 foot) especially to allow for the swing of a poleaxe or bill, or to enable a horizontal 'push of pike'.
Soldiers could actually form up in pretty close files and still be able to use their staff weapons effectively, even if deployed almost shoulder-to-shoulder. Musketeers were in looser files but less depth, this allowed for room to load (elbow room), but also avoided the possible situation of the back ranks shooting their front rank comrades in the backs (which actually happened in an ECW battle, where poorly trained/raw London Trained Band Shot did exactly that in the heat of battle)!!!
Not sure this is of much help
Mark
Cheers everyone.
I've been putting Pendraken 4x4 on 30x30 bases. If we take it as 150:1 scale, that means the base is 4.5 meters (14 feets for old people) square - so approximately what Big Insect said. (Pity - 77% more painting to 3x3!)
The muskets are 10(ish) on the same size, often in a 3-2-3-2 formation - the front 2 ranks firing, the rear 2 loading. Just that one figure loss does make them look a lot looser line.
I need to get on with painting the ECW, once the LWM Russians are finished(ish)
Quote from: Last Hussar on 20 June 2024, 12:11:05 PMI've been putting Pendraken 4x4 on 30x30 bases.
Sorry, are you saying 16 figures on 30mm x 30mm?
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53426724843_706386b23f_z.jpg)
For close order troops I put 1 figure in 10mm x 10mm. For the 2nd Bishops' War, I chose a 40mm x 20mm base, with 8 figures on it. Musketeers the same, but I've got 4 figures on a 20mm x 20mm for skirmishing.
Yes, 16 figures on a 30mm square base (I've just measured it).
FWIW we use 10 figures on each 40mm by 40mm sabot base with our For King and Parliament infantry battalia. We use a 150mm sized grid with each base being 130mm wide. So each battalia has two 10 figure stands of musketeers and one 10 figure stand of pikes. We base each stand in 2 ranks of 5 figures.
Hope that helps
QuoteYes, 16 figures on a 30mm square base (I've just measured it).
Wow! I salute you, Sir.
I don't think I have the patience for that.
I'm spending nearly twice as much on basing, and a good deal more on static grass. :-\
It's the painting I don't like, not the basing.
For WSS I did 2 ranks of 3 on 20mm square - I had to file the figure bases a little.
Your question was "How dense are ECW pikes".
The question you have received an answer to is "what area did an ECW pikeman take up when formed up for battle?". From you comments you seem to have the answer you wanted it is not the answer to your question.
The denseness of an ECW pike will depend on the materials it is made of. A steel pike head will have a density of 7.85g per cubic centimetre. This will only vary a fraction depending on the quality of the steel
The real variable will be the density is in the shaft depending on the wood it was made of. Figures are per cubic centimetre:-
Ash 7.1bg
Beech is 7-9g
Scots pine is 5.1
Elm 5.5g
So you need to know the type of wood the pike is made of. Ash was a preferred wood as light and dense, however the Sots may have had to rely on pine that was less dense, thus more likely to damaged in battle.
FroM this we can deduce that the English pike were more dense than their Scottish counterparts, but probably stronger.
I hope I have fully answered the question you actually asked
Quote from: Orcs on 21 June 2024, 11:37:26 AMYour question was "How dense are ECW pikes".
The question you have received an answer to is "what area did an ECW pikeman take up when formed up for battle?". From you comments you seem to have the answer you wanted, BUT it is not the answer to your question.
The denseness of an ECW pike will depend on the materials it is made of. A steel pike head will have a density of 7.85g per cubic centimetre. Thi wil only vary a fraction depending on the quality of the steel
The real variable will be the density is in the shaft an what wood it was made of figures are per cubic centimetre:-
Ash 7.1bg
Beech is 7-9g
Scots pine is 5.1
Elm 5.5g
So you need to know the type of wood the pike is made of. Ash was a preferred wood as light and dense, however the Sots may have had to rely on pine that was less dense, thus more likely to damaged in battle.
FroM this we can deduce that the English pike were more dense than their Scottish counterparts, but probably stronger.
I hope I have fully answered the question you actually asked
Whoops hit quote rather th an edit
QuoteYour question was "How dense are ECW pikes".
The question you have received an answer to is "what area did an ECW pikeman take up when formed up for battle?". From you comments you seem to have the answer you wanted, BUT it is not the answer to your question.
Indeed and while I applaud your attempt to answer the original question it is possible that the actual answer is "very dense, incredibly stupid, thick as two short planks!" ;)
Of course Rupert wanted his foot rgt to use the Sweedish formation, doubt that lasted long.
QuoteOf course Rupert wanted his foot rgt to use the Sweedish formation, doubt that lasted long.
Really? Not heard this before. Do you have a source?
Orcs,
Great answer
My question was were they lathed or pollarded?
Orcs.
Accurate yet unhelpful.
I salute you.
Quote from: mollinary on 21 June 2024, 05:14:39 PMReally? Not heard this before. Do you have a source?
Came up the "war of 3 Kingdoms" module I did for my BA. Our tutor was Peter Berry, for president of the Cromwell Society and Time Team expert. So no primary source
QuoteCame up the "war of 3 Kingdoms" module I did for my BA. Our tutor was Peter Berry, for president of the Cromwell Society and Time Team expert. So no primary source
Thanks. I think then, that this may be a reference to Prince Rupert wanting the Royalist infantry at Edgehill to use the Swedish brigade. Indeed, they are shown drawn up in this formation on de Gomme's plan of the battle. It does not seem to have been used a second time. At this time Rupert did not have his own regiment of foot, he eventually took over Colonel Lunsford's regiment some time latter.
I think that from a wargaming viewpoint, it's a question of aesthetics or what looks right to you.
I base mine on 30mm squares; a central pike stand and two flanking stands of shot. The shot are in two ranks, with a officer and drummer behind in a third rank. The pike are, from the rear, two ranks of four pikemen and the front rank comprises two pikemen with two ensigns with a third ensign nestled behind in the space between ranks 1 and 2 (I usually need to trim the base of the figure to get it to fit).
(https://i.imgur.com/AR0czKl.jpeg)
I previously had a semicircular extension to the pike base and positioned the three ensigns there whilst having 12 pikemen in three ranks of four behind them. This proved inconvenient for movement and measuring so they got re-based to the present configuration.
And very nice they look as well :)
And I'd agree about aesthetics being the ultimate driver (for me anyway)
Quote from: Big Insect on 27 June 2024, 05:38:37 PMAnd I'd agree about aesthetics being the ultimate driver (for me anyway)
Agreed.
4 deep, 4 wide for pike, 3 or 2 wide for musket.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/3497/3750365664_a66601a50d_c.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/6HpB3Y)Battle Line (https://flic.kr/p/6HpB3Y) by Last Hussar (https://www.flickr.com/photos/lasthussar/), on Flickr
QuoteI think that from a wargaming viewpoint, it's a question of aesthetics or what looks right to you.
Agreed, and yours look very right to me :-bd =D> :-bd =D> :-bd