Hi all
I have RFCM Regiment of Foot. Any other rules the Gentlemen here would recommend for larger battles - I'm not looking for the Osprey skirmish style - my figures are 10mm (Pendraken)(obviously!) - 12-15 on a 30mm base. (All Pike or all musket on a base)
For King and Parliament - all our gaming group really enjoys these rules for ECW
3 of your bases would make a unit. Which would let you play on a 10cm grid, which would give you a big battle on 6'x4' table.
I'm impressed you've got so many figures on a 30mm square base that's the kind of numbers I get on a 40mm square one.
We use the Twilight of Divine Right rules for really large battles of this period.
The emphasis is on fighting historical battles in a 'normal' gaming session and with reasonable resources. Your 3 base units will be a brigade or something similar and most ECW battles will be playable on a 6 by 4 table.
There is an ECW scenario book and also others covering the TYW and 'Eastern' battles - https://www.wyrehistoricbooks.co.uk/home (https://www.wyrehistoricbooks.co.uk/home)
I like Tilly's Very Bad Day (free from Steven's Balagan) here: https://balagan.info/download-tillys-very-bad-day-fast-play-rules-for-the-30-years-war#more-9578
You could try Pikemans Lament using 1 base = 1 Figure
Well, as a co-author, I would have to add my recommendation to For King and Parliament! I have played Marston Moor with it on a number of occasions in 10mm, so I know it can handle the big games.
I have to throw my hat in the ring with Hwiccee's - Twilight of Divine Right is my favourite set of rules for 17th century Pike and Shot. Designed for large games it succeeds magnificently. I've been fascinated by the period since 'A' level history and never found a set that really worked for me until Twilight.
I use 80mm bases for a unit with 27 infantry on them. The system recommends each unit is two bases but my single based ones work absolutely without problem. I can fight most battles comfortably on a 5'x 3' table.
Hi
Another vote for For King and Parliament, excellent set of rules!
Cheers Paul
Yet another vote for For King & Parliament
They are a fast play set which players can pick up easily while having a lot of subtle interactions between different troop types, moral and experience levels
Our games are always exciting and generate a great narrative
For King and Parliament - is this a 'To The Strongest' variant?
No dice, card driven and gridded table?
Quote from: Gwydion on 09 August 2023, 12:26:00 AMFor King and Parliament - is this a 'To The Strongest' variant?
No dice, card driven and gridded table?
Yes that is correct on all counts.
Certainly my favourite C17 ruleset :-bd
QuoteFor King and Parliament - is this a 'To The Strongest' variant?
No dice, card driven and gridded table?
Yes, that is correct. As I play solo 90% of the time it works well for me (and for the reasons PaulR gave).
For those unfamiliar with FK&P, "card driven" in this case means multiple sets of 1 (Ace) - 10 playing cards which are reshuffled at certain points. Numbered chits can be used as well. They add a different kind of decision making process since odds for a particular draw vary due to previous draws. Besides outcome resolution, cards used for unit activation remain attached to specific units throughout a turn and add a new variable for further activation.
Much depends on whether you are put off by a gridded tabletop (the grid can be made quite obtrusive). if you are, then Twilight of Divine Right is excellent and an enjoyable choice as well.
IMHO FK&P gives more detail at the regimental (battalia) level but TDR is likely easier to use for larger battles. FK&P was specifically designed for the W3K while TDR covers the first half (give or take) of the 17th c. This makes it slightly more generic (although with an excellent companion scenario book, By the Sword Divided, to cover the W3K) but consequently more flexible.
As both designers are represented in this thread they can (and will) correct any of my misstatements :)
Although now old fashion, I grew up (in W3K gaming) with Partizan Press - Forlorn Hope, which provided many lovely games. Both FK&P and TDR are next generation (or more) and much cleaner in design and mechanics.
Quote from: pierre the shy on 09 August 2023, 02:19:06 AMYes that is correct on all counts.
Certainly my favourite C17 ruleset :-bd
Oops - Sorry, Peter, didn't mean to ignore your post. FK&P is my favorite as well.
Above all else it captures the feel of the period brilliantly. It's ability to produce storylines rivals many skirmish game rules without losing the tactical aspects of the overall battlefield.
Hi
QuoteQuote from: Gwydion on Today at 12:26:00 AM
For King and Parliament - is this a 'To The Strongest' variant?
No dice, card driven and gridded table?
Yes that is correct on all counts.
Actually that is not
quite correct, the rules are not 'card driven' as such; normal playing cards 'can' be used for exactly the same purposes as dice in other rules sets. In fact, with the group I play with you will not see a card on the table as we use dice instead (D10's as suggested in the rules themselves), after trying out playing cards and 'chits' for both FK&P and TtS!).
Apologies for being pedantic! :)
And further apologies to d Guy as just seen your full post above!
Cheers Paul
Bloody Big Battles has an ECW variant on the BBB Groups.io
I've played it a couple of times using the 2 scenarios available, Dunbar & Inverkeithing, and they work fine
FK&P and Twilight are both great sets. FK&P offers a slightly "crunchier" tactical game though still with a lot of flexibility. Twilight is more fluid and abstracts a lot of the combat into a morale system. When I get my last handful of ECW units done I plan to try out both properly again with larger forces.
QuoteMuch depends on whether you are put off by a gridded tabletop (the grid can be made quite obtrusive). if you are, then Twilight of Divine Right is excellent and an enjoyable choice as well.
I think you mean 'unobtrusive'? I only mark the corner of each square, and they have no real impact on the overall look of the game.
I acquired IN DEO VERITAS rules at WARFARE 2021 but only tried them once and have yet to get back to them as other projects have taken higher priority. Has anyone else tried these rules?
QuoteI think you mean 'unobtrusive'? I only mark the corner of each square, and they have no real impact on the overall look of the game.
I agree. There is no need for heavy grid lines, there is no need for grid lines even. Marking corners is fine - and you can use small terrain items for this. I have a printed mat with grid corners printed on, and if you aren't looking for them you won't notice them.
QuoteI acquired IN DEO VERITAS rules at WARFARE 2021 but only tried them once and have yet to get back to them as other projects have taken higher priority. Has anyone else tried these rules?
I have these, only given them a basic read, nothing jumped out at me to make me want to play them.
QuoteBloody Big Battles has an ECW variant on the BBB Groups.io
I've played it a couple of times using the 2 scenarios available, Dunbar & Inverkeithing, and they work fine
This is interesting, both from taking BBB so much earlier, but also to what are generally much smaller battles than BBB normally caters for.
I feel I should like BBB, but having read a mate's copy struggled to get into the rules, also the shear number of bases needed was a bit of a problem - unless we went for 1914 which meant learning some rules changes on top of the basic rules.
Quote from: mollinary on 09 August 2023, 09:25:36 AMI think you mean 'unobtrusive'? I only mark the corner of each square, and they have no real impact on the overall look of the game.
Indeed! That is precisely what I meant and what I thought I wrote. Thanks for the correction.
QuoteThis is interesting, both from taking BBB so much earlier, but also to what are generally much smaller battles than BBB normally caters for.
I feel I should like BBB, but having read a mate's copy struggled to get into the rules, also the shear number of bases needed was a bit of a problem - unless we went for 1914 which meant learning some rules changes on top of the basic rules.
I like BBB but I'm not convinced they work for earlier periods the same way. They're not really designed for linear warfare, though I'm sure they can still give an enjoyable game with the tweaks.
The number of bases required is daunting for some games, though there are smaller ones that have more manageable counts. I intend to the them for 1914 when I've a few more units done, but not been tempted to try them for ECW.
How many bases an army are we looking at FK&P and Twilight?
FK&P 10 units in the smaller scenarios up to 20+
I think for your basing a unit would likely be 3 bases - perhaps 2 for Swedish style cavalry.
QuoteFK&P 10 units in the smaller scenarios up to 20+
I think for your basing a unit would likely be 3 bases - perhaps 2 for Swedish style cavalry.
Depends on whether you are playing a pick up game, or a historical scenario. It might help to know that at the scale for which the game is designed foot units represent battalia of 400-600 men, Horse units deployed in the Swedish style 200-300, horse in Dutch style 300-450. I do know of some gamers who, when playing the smaller battles, particularly in Montrose's campaigns, make the units represent much smaller numbers, without damaging the game play. The important thing is that both sides use the same basis! By, the way, when I played Marston Moor on a 15ft by 6ft table there were 8 players with over 100 units on the table.
Worth mentioning that for Twilight the base width determines the move and firing ranges. All foot and horse are two bases and guns one. It is easy enough to use other basing as long as that 2xBW is maintained for all units. For example if I use four musketeer bases of 15mm each and one pike of 30mm, the total unit base width is 90mm and half that (45mm) is the BW for game measurements.
In FK&P the constraint is the box dimensions in the grid. I use 100mm square so the 90mm unit fits well. Since the unit frontage is not used in measurements, you can show units of various sizes and weapons make up. Having several smaller bases allows you to break out two or three pike bases to form an all pike unit, two or three musketeer bases can form commanded shot, and so on.
Twilight is probably similar, both sets work in terms of units (3 bases as you have it) though can all be on a single base for both.
How big is your army (or how big do you plan it to be?)
There's some pretty good videos on YouTube giving a breakdown of the Twilight rules, not sure of FK&P has the same but there are for TtS and many of the principals are the same.
Last Hussar:
The minimum number of units for the Twilight rules is around 10 units a side. A unit can be any size you like as long as they are all the same. The move distances, etc, are based on the unit frontage. In 10mm I would guess most people go for 18 infantry or often more per unit & around half of that for cavalry. Artillery are half sized and will be 1 or 2 guns.
Edgehill is around 20 units a side. Most of the other major battle are more like 25 units a side. I think the largest army is the Parliamentarian/Scottish armies at Marston Moor - they are circa 35 units at that battle.
If you are tempted to go further afield some of the TYW battles are larger than this & some of the 'Eastern' battles even more so.
I based mine for Victory without Quarter from League of Augsburg.
Foot are on 30x30mm bases and horse on 40x30mm. These are the recommended size for 15mm, but I just added more figures. Shot are 2 ranks of 4 figures with an officer and drummer behind them. Pikes are in 3 ranks; a rank of 4 figures in rows 2 and 3 with a front rank of 2 pikes and 3 standards. Horse are a single rank of 4 figures.
The Move turn is card driven in that when a units card is turned up it may move, a commander may give an order or the artillery (on both sides) fires. If the TURN ENDED card turns up the Turn is finished and the deck is shuffled ready for the next Turn; as you can see there is a risk that some units may not get to move, which is to give a bit of uncertainty.
I made my own cards using MS PowerPoint, the units are represented by images of their standards and the commanders by searching for portraits on the web. This is not too bad for the Royalist commanders who seemed to like a portrait or two, but less easy for some Parliament commanders. Still there are plenty of images of po-faced seventeenth century gentlemen which can be utilised instead.
Plunged, and just ordered physical copy of FK&P.
QuotePlunged, and just ordered physical copy of FK&P.
Hope you enjoy it. There is a part of the To the Strongest forum on Tapatalk which is devoted to FK&P, and Simon and I visit regularly to answer questions.
I downloaded the free 'Soggy Bottom' scenario; The Cavalry is classed as 'Horse - Seasoned' or 'Horse - Raw'.
I have to ask, are these wargames rules, or a French steakhouse menu? :-\
QuoteI downloaded the free 'Soggy Bottom' scenario; The Cavalry is classed as 'Horse - Seasoned' or 'Horse - Raw'.
I have to ask, are these wargames rules, or a French steakhouse menu? :-\
Belgian, actually! ;D
Rules arrived today.
Reading them now, expect silly questions towards end of week.
I hope you have a great time with them.
They're a very good set of rules.
If you have any questions I'm sure you will find answers here or on the rules page at the author's website.
My foot is 30mm square, the horse is 40mm deep. It looks like a 100mm grid will be ok, yes.
Also reactivating a unit - It seems to read you can activate A, then B, then go back to A. Have I misread that?
QuoteMy foot is 30mm square, the horse is 40mm deep. It looks like a 100mm grid will be ok, yes.
Also reactivating a unit - It seems to read you can activate A, then B, then go back to A. Have I misread that?
Basing sounds fine for 100mm grid.
On activation, yes you can go back to a unit to attempt to activate it again. It is one of the advantages of using cards, or chits, that they remain with a unit activated until the end of the command's turn. They are not as easily knocked over as 10 sided dice! So you can not only see easily which units have already been activated, but also what number you need to beat to activate again. Once one unit of a command fails its activation, then that is the end of the command's activation. So definitely do not activate your first unit until it fails! A good tip, don't be too greedy, try and activate everyone you want to move before activating anyone a second time.
We use cards for activation - it makes it much easier to track which units have activated and what score they need to beat. We use small cards sold as kids party gift bag items - dead cheap, and nice and small on the table.
Moving around the units within a command to decide where you want to go next is key - but you can still be stymied when you draw an ace!
We do use dice for melee resolution - partly as the players like rolling dice, and partly it seems to keep activation with cards and resolution with dice separate in the player's heads.
I like the dice and cards separation idea. Dice when you don't have to keep track of results.
We like the ebb and flow of chits
While you can still have bad (or good) runs of chits there are less bad (or good) chits left, so the luck will turn
A quote from another playing after drawing a series of truly appalling cards when passing the deck his partner, "I've warmed them up for you" ;D
I'm going to try and get myself to a local Hardware shop on the High Street (Ashco, for those who know) who sell all sorts of things - If there is one place that will sell small card packs it will be there.
I can feel the slog of painting being required :'( My short term aim is to get up to 20 Pike and 40 Musket stands (I'll have to do both sides), then start expanding on that. However as I keep forgetting, I do have some 25mm (PROPER 25 mil), so will be looking to see if I have enough there.
You can buy blank playing cards quite easily on-line.
Mine are by the firm Bicycle and are a good quality.
Why would I buy blanks? Is there an advantage, given I'd have to print them?
I might make some chits on paper, laminate them before cutting.
Google "Miniature Playing Cards" you'll be overwhelmed by the choice available. They are popular presents for children, so quite affordable. I have at least a dozen packs, so I can give 80 card sets to each player in a 6 player game. In the great scheme of gaming, it is an insignificant cost. One word of advice though, you'll want to buy them in pairs with different back designs, otherwise the chance of confusion is considerable!
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 09 August 2023, 10:10:40 AMI acquired IN DEO VERITAS rules at WARFARE 2021 but only tried them once and have yet to get back to them as other projects have taken higher priority. Has anyone else tried these rules?
You never had a reply. I also have a set that I have not yet used. There are some good review and battle reports on it here :
https://tabletopstories.net/language/en/2020/07/in-deo-veritas-rules-review/
Quote from: Keraunos on 04 February 2024, 10:28:58 AMYou never had a reply. I also have a set that I have not yet used. There are some good review and battle reports on it here :
https://tabletopstories.net/language/en/2020/07/in-deo-veritas-rules-review/
Well spotted. Our club did not like
Twilight when they tried it and were lukewarm about IDV so I shall be interested to learn how you get on with the different rules and what your preference is ... and, of course, why.
Quote from: Last Hussar on 10 August 2023, 11:58:27 AMPlunged, and just ordered physical copy of FK&P.
Both sunjester and I have played To the strongest that these are based on a few times. So should be able to help with queries. There ias also a forum
Quote from: Last Hussar on 16 August 2023, 03:17:26 PMMy foot is 30mm square, the horse is 40mm deep. It looks like a 100mm grid will be ok, yes.
Also reactivating a unit - It seems to read you can activate A, then B, then go back to A. Have I misread that?
No if like TtS you can jump beck and forth between units in the same command
as much as you like
Quote from: Last Hussar on 16 August 2023, 09:00:40 PMI like the dice and cards separation idea. Dice when you don't have to keep track of results.
At Aylesbury we use cards for activation and dice for shooting and melee
But then they are a bit strange there ;) (they let Orcs in for starters!!!). :d
I should be able to help with any queries on FK&P as well, as I co-wrote them! ;D :D
QuoteI should be able to help with any queries on FK&P as well, as I co-wrote them! ;D :D
"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a man in possession of writing credits for a set of wargames rules, must be in want of any memory of what the rules said when they were finally published." :d :d :d
Quote"It is a truth universally acknowledged, that a man in possession of writing credits for a set of wargames rules, must be in want of any memory of what the rules said when they were finally published." :d :d :d
I did say help, not resolve! ;D