Just received an email that Magister Militum are looking for a buyer, either of the whole business or individual ranges.
Last casting day is 26th September.
Thanks for the heads up. I don't use them much as they are light in compat.10mm
Does any other UK outfit stock GHQ 6mm?
Phew. I thought they were solid. I wonder if they're just tired of the racket and want to move on?
I think I remember hearing that they were attending fewer shows as they have full-time jobs as well and were just finding it too much. I could be wrong of course.
Well, that's less painful to contemplate.
https://mailchi.mp/magistermilitum/magister-militum-news-important-company-update-read-all-about-it-magister-militum-seeks-a-buyer-order-casting-ranges-by-26th-sept?fbclid=IwAR0rjiXOLTrSpbCrAqn9n3NQJuV44LKcPFNxJyv2KN9mUtinqY_ycHaEjjE (https://mailchi.mp/magistermilitum/magister-militum-news-important-company-update-read-all-about-it-magister-militum-seeks-a-buyer-order-casting-ranges-by-26th-sept?fbclid=IwAR0rjiXOLTrSpbCrAqn9n3NQJuV44LKcPFNxJyv2KN9mUtinqY_ycHaEjjE)
I hope someone buys them. Of course, being totally loyal to Pendraken, I don't buy their stuff :-[ but it's nice to browse their ranges if only to see what Pendraken can do - like chariot armies and Byzantines.
On the release they mention politically elected roles and jobs.
I have only ever used them to top up 15mm biblical figures from the old Chariot range. I did try to use them to mix in with Penraken, but their compatibility even within some ranges was not ideal.
I hope they find a buyer, I've used it a fair bit for padding out ranges not covered by Pendraken, particularly their Bronze Age range. I'd been eying some of their Dark Age stuff too recently and they've a large representation in my Medieval armies.
Good luck to them.
They have Chariot and various other ranges that I always felt were vital stepping stones for many into 15mm ranges before they find the glory of 10mm
QuoteI hope they find a buyer, I've used it a fair bit for padding out ranges not covered by Pendraken, particularly their Bronze Age range. I'd been eying some of their Dark Age stuff too recently and they've a large representation in my Medieval armies.
Seconded, although where Pendraken have a Dark Age range, I prefer the Pendraken. I have a horrible dilemma now with boxes/bags of ESR napoleonics in the lead pile. Do I "panic order any gaps and finish"; await developments; abandon those naps ;or just store them until they are collectors "hard to obtain" figures to sell to the desperate??
I do hope the ranges are preserved.
I wasn't a massive consumer of theirs, but they offer a sizeable range.
From memory I filled a couple of gaps in my 10mm collection.
* Napoleonic ottoman mamelukes with lances - a proxy for 16th century Rajput lancers.
* Fantasy Savannah warriors and archers - generic central African warriors.
I have a half completed Urartu army which leaned heavily on the Chariot range.
I set this aside after a rush of enthusiasm, and am in no hurry to complete it.
Should I ever pick it up, Essex's Assyrians and Babylonians will do the job.
I am torn.
On one hand they are the distributors for Oddzial Osmy's 3mm figures and if no one picks up the distributorship (is that a word?) I may have to be grateful that the seemingly irrevocable increase in my WW2 and Samurai collections may be forcibly halted before I am able to do the whole of the NWE theatre and the whole of the Sengoku Jidai at 1:1 figure scale :-)
On the other, maybe I should stock up now!!
This is surprising news. And reading the press release, I can understand the need to focus on other areas, but as they have several people working for MM it is a bit surprising that the business can't continue to run with some of these people taking a wider role. I suppose this is always the challenge of owner run businesses.
For the ranges they are distributors for, I would hope these could be picked up elsewhere fairly easily.
For their own ranges I do hope these stay in production, I have bought various bits over the years and their recent fantasy expansion added a lot of unique figures to the 10mm space.
Their historical 10mm figures don't mix great with Pendraken due to differences in style more than height. But they do have extensive ranges.
Does feel a bit like the MM team have had enough, as otherwise you would have hoped they could have kept the business running whilst finding a buyer.
yes,I too have enjoyed the 3mm scale Oddzial that MM distributed. Perhaps it is indeed time to stock up.
Top up order placed :)
Hi
Richard Clewer (one of the co-founders of Magister Militum) is the Leader of Wiltshire Council. He seems to have made at least one apperance every week this year on our local BBC TV news programme! So I'm not surprised at the news and I do not remember him mentioning wargaming once. :o
Cheers Paul
Quote from: fred. on 28 July 2023, 01:03:56 PMThis is surprising news. And reading the press release, I can understand the need to focus on other areas, but as they have several people working for MM it is a bit surprising that the business can't continue to run with some of these people taking a wider role. I suppose this is always the challenge of owner run businesses.
For the ranges they are distributors for, I would hope these could be picked up elsewhere fairly easily.
For their own ranges I do hope these stay in production, I have bought various bits over the years and their recent fantasy expansion added a lot of unique figures to the 10mm space.
Their historical 10mm figures don't mix great with Pendraken due to differences in style more than height. But they do have extensive ranges.
Does feel a bit like the MM team have had enough, as otherwise you would have hoped they could have kept the business running whilst finding a buyer.
MM were very conspicuous by their absence at the 'Attack' Devizes show earlier in July - having been a staple trader there for as long as I can remember (possibly since the show started) but I gather that the demands of 'political' life are not really compatible with trading at shows. I am sure that somebody will pick up the various ranges but I am not sure there will be a buyer for the whole business as it is a bit of eclectic mix of scales, own-brand and supplier merchandise.
But sad to see another long established trader pack things in.
From a quick decco at the books,they had a drop in sales/profits during Covid- which is suprising as many wargamers became model painters on an industrial scale, but(year ending Jan 22), they were churning £181,332 turnover.
Materials were £47,650 and wages £37,179 gross (just 3 employees?) Other running costs were £62,746.
A modest margin of £33,757.
A lot of their 12,000 odd products are 'prepacked' in the manufacture's blister packs. This incurrs holding high levels of stock as opposed to casting to order and a corollary of lower margins.
I know from speaking to Richard and Zoe that their roles in the council had become too much for them to continue doing the shows so I imagine this is a continuation of that.
There's some interesting stuff in the summary accounts there, such as only turning a profit in 2 of the last 6 years, a lower than expected turnover, plus an ongoing creditor entry of -£200,000 that would usually be something like corporation tax or money owed to the directors.
Indeed. Perhaps as you suggest, a cash investment by Director's to launch the Company into trading that has never been recovered. Relevant to turnover levels and profits before tax, a lot of money.
Brexit uncertanity won't have helped in a business where goods are imported from EU for retail, with end of "grace periods".
Three things strike me about the GB wargame market: First, there are traders who are just traders, and then you have traders who have become a "brand"and generated a unique customer loyality and relationship.This forum is a classical example of how that relationship is nurtured. In the 1980s hayday of the hobby, you had the big fish like the Perry twins whose Foundry was the epitomy of being a brand. That is where Pendraken is now. That loyality is recipocated as was demonstrated in the "BKC crisis" a few years back.
Secondly, I note no existance of any Wargame Trades Federation - like you have in other sectors such as say "angling". Hence no collective body to lobby MPs or promote a unique and very British domestic industry.
Finally, I would also comment that, in general the Wargame traders are all of a certain age. Leon is one of the few 'second generation'. Lawrence Kay at IM would be another. What happens when- as is current with Timecast- the time comes for the present generation want to retire?
QuoteIndeed. Perhaps as you suggest, a cash investment by Director's to launch the Company into trading that has never been recovered. Relevant to turnover levels and profits before tax, a lot of money.
Brexit uncertanity won't have helped in a business where goods are imported from EU for retail, with end of "grace periods".
Three things strike me about the GB wargame market: First, there are traders who are just traders, and then you have traders who have become a "brand"and generated a unique customer loyality and relationship.This forum is a classical example of how that relationship is nurtured. In the 1980s hayday of the hobby, you had the big fish like the Perry twins whose Foundry was the epitomy of being a brand. That is where Pendraken is now. That loyality is recipocated as was demonstrated in the "BKC crisis" a few years back.
Secondly, I note no existance of any Wargame Trades Federation - like you have in other sectors such as say "angling". Hence no collective body to lobby MPs or promote a unique and very British domestic industry.
Finally, I would also comment that, in general the Wargame traders are all of a certain age. Leon is one of the few 'second generation'. Lawrence Kay at IM would be another. What happens when- as is current with Timecast- the time comes for the present generation want to retire?
Very poignant observations there Sunray.
I am aware of at least 2 other highly regarded 28mm modelers and manufacturers who are both making noises about potentially giving up the industry (& trying to sell up) in the next 2 years.
Both state the challenges of Brexit - they have seen their European sales "fall off a cliff" - lower margins due to fuel and material cost increases and also the competition (as they see it) from digital sculpting and 3D printed plastics/resin figures, specifically via Etsy.
The 3D printing issue I thought was an interesting comment, as my perception of 3D printed figures was that they appear to be expensive (especially if buying in any quantity) and fragile. Originally they also had a strange sort of 'roundedness' to the sculpts, but more recent ones I've actually physically seen appear to be much more realistic. Also a move to printing them with closed hands that can be drilled to take metal spear, javelins, pikes etc. seems to be a sensible development.
But time (& tide) waits for no-man and the hobby seems to be getting older, as are our traders/manufacturers. Whilst I think that being a wargames trader/manufacturer is probably more a 'calling' or vocation than a day-job, I also think we will be bound to see more change in the next few years, as retirement beckons for some of the longer established players.
In answer to the Timecast question
Barrie has retired (ill health), Mark is running the company still as a solo project, and moving it the way he wanted to for many years.
New walls for 28mm soon folks!
Quote from: Big Insect on 29 July 2023, 10:00:39 AMVery poignant observations there Sunray.
I am aware of at least 2 other highly regarded 28mm modelers and manufacturers who are both making noises about potentially giving up the industry (& trying to sell up) in the next 2 years.
Both state the challenges of Brexit - they have seen their European sales "fall off a cliff" - lower margins due to fuel and material cost increases and also the competition (as they see it) from digital sculpting and 3D printed plastics/resin figures, specifically via Etsy.
The 3D printing issue I thought was an interesting comment, as my perception of 3D printed figures was that they appear to be expensive (especially if buying in any quantity) and fragile. Originally they also had a strange sort of 'roundedness' to the sculpts, but more recent ones I've actually physically seen appear to be much more realistic. Also a move to printing them with closed hands that can be drilled to take metal spear, javelins, pikes etc. seems to be a sensible development.
But time (& tide) waits for no-man and the hobby seems to be getting older, as are our traders/manufacturers. Whilst I think that being a wargames trader/manufacturer is probably more a 'calling' or vocation than a day-job, I also think we will be bound to see more change in the next few years, as retirement beckons for some of the longer established players.
Front Rank being the one that shouldn't have surprised me, but did; when they sold up to Gripping Beast.
Yes - the challenge of trying to integrate two very characteristic and different sculpting styles under the same manufacturer will be interesting to watch. Others manage it - Fighting 15's is a good example - but generally they tend not to add to existing ranges, and to market them under their original brand names - as MM did with Chariot.
It could be argued that with Front Rank, Gripping Beast got a number of complete ranges (although with Napoleonics can that ever be said to be the case!). The challenge comes when your customers demand additions to a range that you've not sculpted yourself. 'Ancient & Modern' have balanced this by splitting the old Donnington ranges (of which I am a big fan) from their 'New Era' sculpts (which are also very good). The new owners of the old 'vintage' Lamming ranges - East Front - are attempting to replicate Bill Lammings style and also trying to stay true to the original Lamming multi-part approach. From what I have seen so far, they appear to be achieving this.
So it will remain to be seen as to who snaps up the various MM ranges or if the business is bought as a whole.
Having looked at the accounts filed by MM since it's inception the following things stand out:
1. The accounts are unaudited and show only a minimum of information. That is normal for a small
business, but a prospective purchaser would need to look into more detail.
2. The company has reported losses in nearly every year so the large Creditor sum will not
include any liability for Corporation Tax.
3. The large Creditor figure would need to be examined in detail. For the majority of the years
it has been described as due within one year. As such it would be expected to include a
combination of monies owed to suppliers, bank overdraft, PAYE and VAT in the main.
For the year ended January 2022 it has now been stated as due in more than 12 months, which
suggests something has changed in the nature of that Creditor balance, which would need to be
understood.
Overall there appears to be little evidence that the company has been a successful venture financially since day one.
Quite disappointing news. While Pendraken is my number one love for 10mm, I love the scale so much I have affairs with several other manufacturers. My Crimean War and Early WW1 projects are entirely MM and I freely mix MM into my 10mm Pict, Irish and Saxon dark ages armies (which are predominantly Pendraken). I was also planning a foray into Biblical era armies...
I was planning an order for Pendraken soon, looks like I will have to double down and make an order from Magister Militum to fill any gaps in the event the ranges disappear. Need to take inventories, make priority lists and see what the butcher's bill will cost me. Nothing quite like panic shopping!
Do remember that Newline also do a few good chariot-era ranges, and that Lancashire has a few too (though there's something about their genetic make-up I don't trust).
Quote from: FierceKitty on 11 August 2023, 12:05:17 AMDo remember that Newline also do a few good chariot-era ranges, and that Lancashire has a few too (though there's something about their genetic make-up I don't trust).
Lancashire used to have real issue with their metal. Maybe it had too much lead in it, but it resulted in them getting 'lead-rot' quite quickly or breaking off at the ankles. However, I understand that this may have been rectified in recent years, not that I have bought any for a while now.
Funnily enough my first order from Lancashire arrived yesterday with a few packs to check them out, some bronze age and medieval command figures. Look fairly nice though haven't had a chance to paint up or see how they look along side other ranges.
Newline do a nice bronze age range and Fogg of War are in the process of getting their shop up which will include some bronze age stuff too.
This news (combined with Pendraken's own problems) seems gloomy.
I'm seriously low on marketing savvy, but I believe we have two rather different businesses here.
Pendraken "Scale leader - with supporting sidelines".
Magister Militum "Aggregator - without a dominant theme".
The marketing types around my job (Information technology) were obsessed that any new business needed it's "Killer App".
One thing they delivered with excellence, which set them apart from hundreds of similar offerings.
In our extended hobby Warhammer are a classic example (I should have said Games Workshop - Warhammer is the killer app).
Pendraken has that in its 10mm ranges.
I can't think of many times Magister Militum was my first choice of supplier.
Their extensive ranges were handy for filling gaps in collections.
But I have never envisaged a project - even the most speculative - and throught "I'll get all the stuff form Magister Militum".
But I never
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 11 August 2023, 12:13:38 PMI'm seriously low on marketing savvy, but I believe we have two rather different businesses here.
Pendraken "Scale leader - with supporting sidelines".
Magister Militum "Aggregator - without a dominant theme".
In our extended hobby Warhammer are a classic example (I should have said Games Workshop - Warhammer is the killer app).
Pendraken has that in its 10mm ranges.
That's an interesting point that could probably take up it's own thread! While 10mm is obviously our 'bread and butter' as it were, we never could have achieved our current level of operations whilst relying solely on the 10mm sales. The main reasons for that are simply that 10mm doesn't generate enough profit margin in the product itself, and the scale didn't have as much market share as the more traditional scales. The latter has changed a lot over the past 10+ years though, which has been a big help.
The only way that we were able to expand into premises and staff was by diversifying into the third-party and sundry products.
Quote from: mmcv on 11 August 2023, 07:54:36 AMFogg of War are in the process of getting their shop up which will include some bronze age stuff too.
Fogg of War have been talking about a web shop for a few years now, I see that they have a marker web site now, be interested to see what happens there.Their ancient Chinese looked intersting.
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
QuoteFogg of War have been talking about a web shop for a few years now, I see that they have a marker web site now, be interested to see what happens there.Their ancient Chinese looked intersting.
Cheers
GrumpyOldMan
Yeah I have some of their Chinese samples I got a few years back and they are very nice. They've also got some Renaissance, Dark Age and Classical ranges in the works along with their Bronze Age and Asian offerings. I was chatting with them recently when I saw they had the site up and they sound like they're close to launching 🤞
QuoteI can't think of many times Magister Militum was my first choice of supplier.
Their extensive ranges were handy for filling gaps in collections.
But I have never envisaged a project - even the most speculative - and thought "I'll get all the stuff form Magister Militum".
I totally agree with that thought.
Some manufacturers have nice figures but not a complete range - such as Artizan Designs 28mm ranges. Lovely figures but always with 'gaps' in their ranges, unfortunately. So for me they end up as 'filler' purchases - with the majority of an army coming from another supplier, with compatible figures.
I think that the completeness of a range is (for me anyway) a major factor in where I buy products from.
Maybe I am lazy or it is just that I like a degree of consistency of 'sculpt' within an army.
Likewise having matching opponents is important - to me it no good having a Russo-Japanese range with only the Russian (or just the Japanese) force - or if there were a few Manchurians or Chinese troops involved - having them available is often the key influencer in making the bulk purchase decision :)
Magister Militum were/are as you state more of a 'filler' supplier for me - so I'll buy my massed 15mm orc & goblin army from Alternative Armies (for example) but MM do a nice goblin overseer cracking a whip (so I get a few packs of those to supplement the AA hordes). Or I'll buy my Baueda camp from MM, at the same time as a few other odds and ends, to save on P&P. Pendraken have the added advantage of offering full (own brand) figure ranges + all the nice add ons - like Litko markers, MDF bases, wire spears & pikes - as well :D
I agree. Complete ranges are fundamental to taking that plunge into a period. I also agree about consistency of sculpts. I hardly ever use other manufacturers to fill-in gaps in another. I'd rather not bother in the first place.
Similarly, producing both sides is pretty basic I'd say. I also wonder if some of the more obscure ranges aren't loss-leaders really. Russo-Japanese War, War of the Pacific - Really? I suppose it is alright if the core ranges generate sufficient to make them possible but otherwise but I'd rather see some of the older ranges modernised first.
I also like consistency of poses within a range. That is the principle reason I haven't considered Pendraken's AWI. Lovely figures but those cavalry poses - great for red indians but not much else, in my view.
I've only used MM once for a complete project - Maida - and that was only because Pendraken didn't make the early Napoleonic figures. They were expensive in comparison and a chore to prepare and paint.
It occurs to me that if MM goes under, there'll be a serious gap in 10mm Sassanids. The Pendraken figures are better, but too limited in variety. This could be a real problem.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 24 August 2023, 01:51:34 AMIt occurs to me that if MM goes under, there'll be a serious gap in 10mm Sassanids. The Pendraken figures are better, but too limited in variety. This could be a real problem.
Or you do what I did, use the the late Roman cataracts.
Even worse for Huns. A strange omission from the Pendraken LR range.
But not having cataracts at least I can still see to paint them.
I do have minor cataracts, and some day I'll need to have them seen to...hmmm, wrong word, what?
I have a unit of the late Roman figures in my Persian army, but the MM ones remain useful (esp. the fancy standards).
The Pendraken Mongols are convincing Huns, I find.
10mm is the size where my eyesight struggles to locate minor details.
Belt buckles, dagger sheaths and the like.
This also makes it the largest size where I'm happy with "Paint conversion".
A coupe of years back I posted a whole list of Proxies for sixteenth century "age or exploration" Indian ocean contingents.
A couple of hours poking about the obscure corners of Pendraken's catalogue is rarely wasted.
For example: The recent "Chinese peasants" form the Russo Japanese range could plug into a millenium and a half of Chinese history.
Returning to Magister Militum:
The problem isn't so much incomplete ranges:
They have a couple of very complete ranges in the old Chariot 15mm Biblicals and the Hallmark small scale naval.
It's more that their extremely general range means they're rarely the "Go to" you'd think of outside some rather specialised set-ups.
Arrowhead Miniatures is going as well. From their website (https://arrowheadminiatures.co.uk/):
"Arrowhead Miniatures
CLOSING DOWN SALE
Due to many different reasons I have decided to retire after 25 years of producing kits. I would like to thank all my customers for their support during that time.
The sale is 20 % off all products. When they're gone they're gone."
Could the loss of Arrowhead and MM actually be good for our favourite producer?
Quote from: fsn on 24 August 2023, 06:42:04 PMCould the loss of Arrowhead and MM actually be good for our favourite producer?
Arrowhead were stunning models but at 1:144 were too big for 10mm really, which is 1:150 as far as vehicles are concerned. Their range also had no theme to it and there were too many gaps in its range. I doubt its demise will have much effect one way or the other. MM was much more catholic that Pendraken insofar as it was not nearly the 10mm specialist that Pendraken is. I'm not sure but I don't think it was necessarily the 'go to' for 10mm figures. It certainly wasn't for me. But, having said that, if its 10mm figures disappear it won't do Pendraken any harm. I can hardly beieve that they will though.
Interesting conversation for sure, like others here I rarely bought from MM and then only to fill gaps and whilst I acknowledge diversification can be positive I just felt they tried to cover too much product. If I was on the look out for a new venture I don't think MM would be it very difficult to say what their core ranges are!
As to other companies etc there are many small businesses out there that a lot of gamers have never even heard of Arrowhead being a prime example I'd never heard of them until someone posted about them closing. The hobby is very dynamic at the moment, lots of product, lots of changes to the hobby but I think the likes of 10mm and 6mm are in a good place. I don't see 3D prints having a huge impact on them yet!
I do have some 15mm resin prints and they are nice however they can be fragile, I don't know how they will stand up to the passing of time and really unless you print yourself not really any cheaper than metal!
We live in interesting times!
Belated welcome to the forum Graham from NZ.
Do you think that the 10/12mm Epic scale ranges that Warlord Games have released for various periods will have an impact on the smaller scale wargaming scene?
While there are a (very) few brick and mortar shops here in NZ (and a couple of NZ based online sites) that sell "mainstream" stuff like Warlord Games here if you want anything else you have to buy from overseas. In my case mostly from UK retailers.
This is why I like Pendraken so much as Leon and his company have such amazing customer service and a very extensive range of just about anything you need in 10mm.
Like everywhere else though nothing is getting cheaper and the cost of getting stuff to NZ is becoming a real factor in all offshore purchasing decisions, including gaming ones. We don't spend a lot on buying stuff online but the freight cost is a big factor when we do.
Love em or loathe em Warlord Games have a strong following and whilst 'epic' uses a unique size (13.5mm) at my local club a number of people have bought into ACW and Napoleonic because it's Warlord and they provide all they need ! They weren't really historical gamers but love the scale and concept.
I've taken my 10mm AWI down and they like the scale and the game but they prefer plastic and aren't keen on doing the homework of studying the period!
I think the Epic approach works when a bunch of factors align:
* Relatively few different troop types, and similar uniforms.
* Relatively few contenders in the war.
* A good number of historic battles.
* Rules that reflect the "big battle" setting.
The American Civil War seems to hit the sweet spot on all counts.
What remains to be seen is whether the offering can wean the various British and legions of American gamers away from their 28s or their Old Glory 15s.
Do you think close order formations are also a factor?
Would Greek hoplites be a good area for Epic? who they would fight I have not a clue - other hoplites mayhap?
The tricorn era would also seem to be suitable.
Or am I missing a point?
Quote from: fsn on 26 August 2023, 10:01:22 AMWould Greek hoplites be a good area for Epic? who they would fight I have not a clue - other hoplites mayhap
Yep, other Greeks; but also Persians, Carthaginians, Italian Hill People, Early Romans, Macedonians, Thracians. Illyrians. Also native people of Sicily, but no one seems to know much about what they looked like.
QuoteYep, other Greeks; but also Persians, Carthaginians, Italian Hill People, Early Romans, Macedonians, Thracians. Illyrians.
I was thinking that there would be a struggle to fit the criterion of
relatively few different troop types, and similar uniforms, and not that there is a shortage of Hoplite enemies. :)
Pendraken do 15 different troop types in the Persian range, and I think they're missing some fun ones. Macedonians and Carthaginians were a bit heterogeneous. I suppose you could get away with 5 different types in early Roman?
It is quite an interesting exercise to come up with periods that Mr Holmes criteria, and I would add "be popular".
QuoteDo you think close order formations are also a factor?
Would Greek hoplites be a good area for Epic? who they would fight I have not a clue - other hoplites mayhap?
The tricorn era would also seem to be suitable.
Or am I missing a point?
I think Ancients and epic are a poor mix on account of the variety of troops.
Even Hoplite armies generally require some variously equipped psiloi and some light cavalry.
And few ancients gamers will be satisfied with the Greek city conference league.
They'll want Macedonians, Galatians, Persians .... and I don't think the economics of plastics lend themselves to providing every troop type.
That's my take on the limits of Epic.
I could see Seven Years War type uniforms working well.
There are a few "special hats" like Prussian Fusilier and some light troops, but there's a very generic look for the core troops.
QuoteI was thinking that there would be a struggle to fit the criterion of relatively few different troop types, and similar uniforms, and not that there is a shortage of Hoplite enemies. :)
Pendraken do 15 different troop types in the Persian range, and I think they're missing some fun ones. Macedonians and Carthaginians were a bit heterogeneous. I suppose you could get away with 5 different types in early Roman?
It is quite an interesting exercise to come up with periods that Mr Holmes criteria, and I would add "be popular".
I'd suggest the following:
1 Close order troops constitute the majority (Line infantry or formed lights, shock cavalry and artillery in batteries).
2 Fairly standard look across the foot and horse (Or at least the fiction of a standard look).
3 It helps if the war has two protagonists, or if all protagonists wear a similar cut of uniform.
Point 1: Close Order Troops suits horse and musket, and the late end of pike and shot.
Especially if your rules abstract skirmishers off the table.
Point 2: Implies that guardsmen and highlanders are either premium packs, ignored, or a fixed ratio of generic foot packs.
Napoleonics with its plethora of combatants and uniforms really pushes the epic model.
In its favour, it is popular with gamers, and Warlord have a viable ruleset.
Point 3: Might favour some of the 19th century's "Hyphen Wars".
The marketing problem is Which?
Franco Prussian is probably best known, but even that is obscure forrin malarkey to the average UK customer.
British and colonial opponents is another possibility, but the locals really require an irregular look and looser order to be convincing.
QuoteI think Ancients and epic are a poor mix on account of the variety of troops.
I agree
QuoteEven Hoplite armies generally require some variously equipped psiloi and some light cavalry.
Depends on the period. Early hoplite armies didn't really bother much with light troops, but my point was that hoplite armies are something of an exception that proves the rule.
QuoteI could see Seven Years War type uniforms working well.
There are a few "special hats" like Prussian Fusilier and some light troops, but there's a very generic look for the core troops.
Yes. I had the same thought for AWI or WSS - the Tricorne age.
QuotePoint 2: Implies that guardsmen and highlanders are either premium packs, ignored, or a fixed ratio of generic foot packs.
Yes. That was my thought for Hoplite armies.
QuoteNapoleonics with its plethora of combatants and uniforms really pushes the epic model.
The stuff they've made for Waterloo is quite limiting IMHO.
QuotePoint 3: Might favour some of the 19th century's "Hyphen Wars".
The marketing problem is Which?
Franco Prussian is probably best known, but even that is obscure forrin malarkey to the average UK customer.
British and colonial opponents is another possibility, but the locals really require an irregular look and looser order to be convincing.
Agreed.
What about Dark Ages? The shield wall may fit quite nicely.
The latest Epic range is definitely closer to 15mm than their ACW range. It was possible to supplement the ACW range with 12mm figures (indeed, I think the Kallistra ACW cavalry and atillery are far superior to the Epic offers). 10mm however is noticeably smaller. Should Epic ever venture into the mid=C19th I would have no interest whatsoever given what is available from Pendraken and a couple of others. Also, when an Epic box is released the price point is quite reasonable for what you get, but the follow up add-ons are often outrageously priced.
Middle ages might be possible.
Especially if you follow the school that Saxons, "Vikings" and Franks looked fairly similar.
Games Workshop's old "Battle of Five Armies" and its re-badged Warmaster rules provide an example of what might be possible.
If you see from the welcome page I have just joined this forum and have come back to wargaming after a 30 year break. At the moment my main interest is 10mm WW2. So when researching for new figures Pendraken (obviously!)and MM were both manufacturers that became top of the list for figures. Im quite old school and prefer metal cast figures than resin 3d printed. In the end I bought from MM but only because you could buy a complete company of German Infantry (say) or a armoured infantry platoon with supporting vehicles in one ready made pack. This was ideal for me, to get some figures, paint them and then play. I appreciate Pendraken have the BKC sets but I wasn't sure if they would work for (at the moment) my planned 1 fig 1 man gaming. However saying all this the tanks etc will be Pendraken as these look better imho. So what I think I'm trying to say is that each manufacturer appealed to me, as a returner to gaming and I hope MM do continue, to help fill gaps and to provide something a tad different from Pendraken. BTW the creditor in the accounts (I haven't looked at them) sounds to me like a Director or Investor loan that is now due
I placed my last order from Magister Militum. I picked up some of their early war WW1 to fill in gaps as my WW1 collection is primarily MM. Also picked up some mounted Saxon Huscarls for my Big Battle RavenFeast project. Lastly, I purchased some Middle Kingdom Egyptians and Lybians ans Nubians. I always liked the early "Biblical" period and they are the only range that I'm aware of. Pendraken are my favorite 10mm figures but Magister Militum will be missed.
Regard the Warlord Epic conversation, I could see them venturing into either Dark Ages (Vikings, Saxons and Normans) or early Imperial Romans and barbarians. Both would lend themselves to strips and the Hail Caesar rules.
Streetgang - check out Newline (excellent) and Lancashire; both have chariot-era ranges, so while I agree MM is going to leave a big hole in 10mm supplies, perhaps the ship isn't sinking yet for bronze age enthusiasts.
Quote from: Leman on 27 August 2023, 09:47:42 AMThe latest Epic range is definitely closer to 15mm than their ACW range. It was possible to supplement the ACW range with 12mm figures (indeed, I think the Kallistra ACW cavalry and atillery are far superior to the Epic offers). 10mm however is noticeably smaller. Should Epic ever venture into the mid=C19th I would have no interest whatsoever given what is available from Pendraken and a couple of others. Also, when an Epic box is released the price point is quite reasonable for what you get, but the follow up add-ons are often outrageously priced.
One of the guys at our club has used Peter Pig 15mm ECW cavalry any they fit perfectly.
Indeed, I have used both Peter Pig and Steel Fist to add extra figures. The ST and PP cuirassiers are particularly useful fo getting extra cuirassiers for the early Thirty Years War period. PP does two different cuirassier command packs, containing 2 standard bearers and 2 officers. The latter make excellent additional cuirassiers and the former can be used to produce a leading general's lifeguard of lancers.
Errr ... anyone know what's happening in Magister Miletum world? There was a plethora of sales, and a plea for a buyer for the company, but they've just popped up on Facebook, bright as a button and bold as brass.
So, like a brass button.
Have they been sold or continuing with the old management?
Not sure, I placed a small order of bits but there wasn't much avalibld on the site
AFAIK, Magister Militum intend to sell the stock they have but not make or acquire any more while they seek a buyer for the business.
Real life has become to busy for them to continue, apparently.
Quote from: fsn on 19 January 2024, 03:26:54 PMErrr ... anyone know what's happening in Magister Miletum world?
Quote from: Ithoriel on 19 January 2024, 07:32:16 PMAFAIK, Magister Militum intend to sell the stock they have but not make or acquire any more while they seek a buyer for the business.
That's my understanding too, they've not been able to find a buyer yet so they're continuing to sell their existing stock (mainly third-party by this point) but not casting anything from their own ranges.
Thank you.
Sad to see them wither away.
Quote from: Leon on 20 January 2024, 12:50:12 AMThat's my understanding too, they've not been able to find a buyer yet so they're continuing to sell their existing stock (mainly third-party by this point) but not casting anything from their own ranges.
Somebody ought to buy their 10mm range, if it is sensibly priced. It would be a pity if it disappeared. I wonder how much they want for it?
Quote from: John Cook on 20 January 2024, 11:50:33 AMSomebody ought to buy their 10mm range, if it is sensibly priced. It would be a pity if it disappeared. I wonder how much they want for it?
I know someone who put them n a decent and serious offer for Chariot Miniatures range. They want to sell the lot, not partition it off
He also said they have a lot of obsolete and redundant stick like previous boardgame editions.
I'm confused by what they want. I heard they wanted to sell the lot as a going concern but this was on the Facebook page:
'Seeking a buyer for Magister Militum, as a whole or individual ranges.'
(My emphasis).
I'm not in the market for any of the business, but I guess it is confusing for those thinking about what they really want.
Thoughts from a potential customer's perspective.
* Will only sell "all or nothing" seriously reduces the odds of finding a buyer. Higher bar for costs, capacity etc.
* I've seen a few favourite ranges change hands. There's often been a significant associated price hike.
* MM Have a large portfolio including some very popular stuff, other stuff that I suspect shifts very few units.
* MM want to cash in on all their investments.
* Potential buyers will prefer the popular stuff and not want the "trash".
The 10mm stuff fills a few gaps in Pendraken's range, but the figures don't mix well.
The MM figures are quite chunky (in the style of 1970s 25mm Minifigs) and stand on thick bases (increasing their height by a MM or two).
Sometimes this doesn't matter.
When I used Mamluk lancers as a proxy for Rajput lancers, they joined a bunch of Pendraken Indian foot.
It's often easier to mix one manufacturer's horse with another's foot.
The other example was adding MM Tribal archers to assorted Pendraken African tribal foot.
There is a real dissonance between the "bodybuilder" physique of the archer scouts and the more slender build of the shield bearing warriors.
Not sure I know what the Chariot Miniatures range is. Is the 10mm range? There is probably far too much duplication between MM's 10mm range and Pendraken's anyway to make it a sensible investment. The two ranges aren't really compatible in style, I agree, but I don't mix figures from different manufacturers which solves any problem in that context.
Chariot was a well regarded 15mm range.
It covered the Bronze age and very early Iron age armies of the Fertile Crescent.
It's sometimes called the Chariot age.
Occasionally Biblical - through the era begins and ends earlier.
Egypt, Early Greece/Anatolia, Assyria, Babylon, all prior to the rise or Persia.
And the pesky tribes and smaller nations that threatened them.
Fairly slender "true" 15mm figures.
Usually in single poses which looked remarkably similar to illustrations in.
Armies of the ancient near east 3000BC - 539BC. by the two Nigels.
They show their age with the single poses, but provide excellent coverage of the soldier types in WRG lists, and plenty of different armies.
They did some decent fantasy figures too
Quote from: Lord Speedy of Leighton on 20 January 2024, 12:56:11 PMI know someone who put them n a decent and serious offer for Chariot Miniatures range. They want to sell the lot, not partition it off
He also said they have a lot of obsolete and redundant stick like previous boardgame editions.
When they first announced the closure/sale they were looking to offload the whole business as a going concern, but I think the amount of stock/ranges, plus the elevated sale price for all of it, put off any potential buyers. They've then decided to partition the business into chunks (so all of the 10mm ranges is a single batch) in order to find a buyer.
I assume that the ongoing sales are reducing the third-party stock and making it more viable to sell those on too.
Quote from: John Cook on 20 January 2024, 11:50:33 AMSomebody ought to buy their 10mm range, if it is sensibly priced. It would be a pity if it disappeared. I wonder how much they want for it?
There are certain 10mm ranges that we've expressed our interest in, but the price for the whole 10mm batch is way out of our budget. If they get to the point that they're happy to partition it down a bit, we'll have another conversation.
I'd really like to see you chaps take over their Goths (no other good 10mm around that I know of), their Sassanids (the Pendraken range are very good, but the Persians need more variety), the Indian Maiden Guard, and their armoured Successor elephant (a wonderful figure, that). I've got them all myself, but there's a future to be considered, and I have more grey hairs every day amongst those that remain on my head at all.
I'm sure Mike will likewise express a longing to see the chariot-age stuff saved for posterity.
Quote from: Leon on 21 January 2024, 12:28:54 AMWhen they first announced the closure/sale they were looking to offload the whole business as a going concern, but I think the amount of stock/ranges, plus the elevated sale price for all of it, put off any potential buyers. They've then decided to partition the business into chunks (so all of the 10mm ranges is a single batch) in order to find a buyer.
I assume that the ongoing sales are reducing the third-party stock and making it more viable to sell those on too.
There are certain 10mm ranges that we've expressed our interest in, but the price for the whole 10mm batch is way out of our budget. If they get to the point that they're happy to partition it down a bit, we'll have another conversation.
Well, their prices when in production were elevated in comparison too. Just out of interest, if it isn't 'commercial in confidence', how much did they want for the entire 10mm range?
I have some of their 10mm Early imperial Romans and thecargers are literally head an shoulders above the legionaries.
I believe they have used different sculptors within some ranges resulting in these anomalies.
Also the Steve Barber 10mm ranges are up for grabs as well. Excellent figures, but
Not completely compatible with Pendraken. Also some ranges are not complete, although I guess a buyer could get Steve to make the masters they wanted
The Chariot 15 mm range are lovely figures.
Quote from: Orcs on 22 January 2024, 12:49:04 AMAlso, the Steve Barber 10mm ranges are up for grabs as well. Excellent figures, but
Not completely compatible with Pendraken. Also some ranges are not complete, although I guess a buyer could get Steve to make the masters they wanted
I was looking at those the other day, what makes them less than compatible?
I've mixed them quite happily with Pendrakens (Zulu and Numidian figures).
Quote from: Corso on 22 January 2024, 08:29:23 AMI was looking at those the other day, what makes them less than compatible?
I use all Steve Barbers figures in the same army but not the same units. They are a little bulkier and shields are fractionally larger.
Quote from: Orcs on 22 January 2024, 09:52:11 AMI use all Steve Barbers figures in the same army but not the same units. They are a little bulkier and shields are fractionally larger.
OK so I could use the germans as barbarians then
Thanks
Quote from: Corso on 22 January 2024, 10:06:24 AMOK so I could use the germans as barbarians then
Thanks
Yes, They are lovely figures, so much so I keep looking at buying a Germanic Army, before he sells it. Despite having 4 other ancient 10m armies to paint
Quote from: John Cook on 21 January 2024, 10:52:59 AMJust out of interest, if it isn't 'commercial in confidence', how much did they want for the entire 10mm range?
Not allowed to say I'm afraid!
Quote from: Leon on 23 January 2024, 12:14:02 AMNot allowed to say "I'm afraid!"
Are you permitted to say "I'm a bit nervous"?
Quote from: FierceKitty on 23 January 2024, 03:11:14 AMAre you permitted to say "I'm a bit nervous"?
Quote from: Leon on 23 January 2024, 12:14:02 AMNot allowed to say I'm afraid!
Fair enough, I thought that might be the case.
Quote from: Orcs on 22 January 2024, 12:49:04 AMI have some of their 10mm Early imperial Romans and the archers are literally head an shoulders above the legionaries.
I believe they have used different sculptors within some ranges resulting in these anomalies.
Also the Steve Barber 10mm ranges are up for grabs as well. Excellent figures, but
Not completely compatible with Pendraken. Also some ranges are not complete, although I guess a buyer could get Steve to make the masters they wanted
The Chariot 15 mm range are lovely figures.
Corrected orriginal post (in red)
It's the 10mm prehistorics I'll miss :'(
...not that I ever got round to buying more than a couple of "essentials" due to the price!
I picked up some more Magister Militum Crimean War figures (British and Russian) on discount from Scale Creep in the US.
I have a feeling we won't see any of these ranges again anytime soon.
I had an email from MM today:
BREAKING NEWS!!
We are very pleased to announce the new owners of Battleground buildings and scenery which includes the much loved Ian Weekley range.
As you'll remember, the scales cover 3mm, 6mm, 10mm, 15mm, some 20mm and 28mm bunkers to battlements, castles to cottages!
The new owners are just getting set up for casting and your orders, so please bear with them whilst they do that and then please continue to be great customers for them as you were for us!!
We wish Neil and Total System Scenic every success as they become property moguls!
Contact Neil on info@totalsystemscenic.com
https://totalsystemscenic.com/
Today's anopuncement.
We are very pleased to announce Heroics & Ros as the new owners of Mainforce 6mm figures
which have long complimented GHQ & all 6mm ranges.
Thanks fsn, that could be useful to know as H&R don't update thier website that much with new additions. They tend to use thier Facebook page instead,but I don't have a FB account....rely on Mrs Shy when I need to see something on FB :)
Good to see ranges staying in production when a manufacture decides to close.
Faceache a movement, they have a buyer, but saying whom.
Magister Militum 10mm historical sold!! We'll be ready to announce the new owners soon! 😄 https://mailchi.mp/magistermilitum/magister-militum-baueda-range-sold-and-back-on-the-show-circuit-many-bargains-on-dark-sword-hallmark-osmy-ghq-and-more-10972828
Quote from: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 04 November 2024, 07:33:58 PMFaceache a movement, they have a buyer, but saying whom.
Magister Militum 10mm historical sold!! We'll be ready to announce the new owners soon! 😄 https://mailchi.mp/magistermilitum/magister-militum-baueda-range-sold-and-back-on-the-show-circuit-many-bargains-on-dark-sword-hallmark-osmy-ghq-and-more-10972828
I'm having a senior moment. What are you telling us?
Quote from: FierceKitty on 05 November 2024, 12:44:57 AMI'm having a senior moment. What are you telling us?
Magister Militum are having a sale of some ranges. Oddzial Osmy packs at £2 a time for example.
Quote from: FierceKitty on 05 November 2024, 12:44:57 AMI'm having a senior moment. What are you telling us?
Someone has bought the MM 10mm ranges.
QuoteIt's not us! :D
Not too late, 10mm Fantasy is still available. :)
Quote from: Ithoriel on 06 November 2024, 12:34:49 AMNot too late, 10mm Fantasy is still available. :)
Not for the current price sadly...
Baccus Miniatures are the new owners of 10mm Magister Militum historical!
Fantasy set still avalible ;)
Well . . . that's a surprise. ??? :-\
I agree, a real surprise.
Here is yesterdays announcement:
https://www.baccus6mm.com/news/19-03-2025/6mmor10mmWhynothaveboth/
I hesitated posting since this is now a Pendraken competitor but I think Leon knows that most of his customers are ONE TRUE SCALE fanatics and acquire 10's from everywhere. This does not diminish our loyalty to the mothership which is Pendraken!
Please delete this post if it is problematic and accept my sincere apologies!
On another note: my last Pendraken order left the mothership on the 13th this instance and arrived at my home in the States on the 19th. Pretty amazing.
Hence 10th Legion and not mainstream Baccus?
I read that as some kind of licensing deal.
I just thought it weird my quote from their site needed correcting
Quote from: Corso on 20 March 2025, 10:48:03 PMI just thought it weird my quote from their site needed correcting.
All good, I've deleted my post! It's great to see the MM 10mm ranges back online, I know a lot of folks were left with unfinished projects so they'll be able to get those extra figures now. And having more options available in 10mm makes the whole scale more viable to newcomers.
I don't envy Pete/Baccus the job of cataloguing and getting them all back into production though, there was a lot there to work through!
It's interesting to see where these ranges are going.
I rather fear whet the prices will be when the new owners have production established.
It's not uncommon to see prices hiked by 20% when a range changes ownership.
And that's before energy and metal inflation is factored in.
A couple of personal opinions:
Magister Militum and Pendraken present rather different styles of 10mm figure.
The MM were rather stout, much as old Minifigs presented a "well fed" interpretation of 25mm.
For me, the difference was too great to mix figures from different manufacturers.
I have used a couple of MM historicals where no appropriate Pendraken figures were available.
That's a very rare situation.
Maybe more universal.
Several MM Historicals did double duty as humanoid races in their fantasy range.
(Roman, Chinese, Medieval European, Savannah Tribes).
All except the Savannah Tribes have disappeared form the MM listings.
Some prices are up already