Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Non-Pendraken Stuff => Topic started by: T13A on 13 March 2023, 09:38:18 AM

Title: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: T13A on 13 March 2023, 09:38:18 AM
Hi

Just wondering about these rules; does anybody know if any 1/4800 scale WWII model ships are available in the UK?

After doing a very quick search online the only company that seems to come up is 'Shapeways Miniatures' who seem to be in the US.

Cheers Paul

Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: Lord Kermit of Birkenhead on 13 March 2023, 09:45:02 AM
You can get lots 1/3000, but not aware of any 1/4800th Leciester did a comprehensive range but that disapperaed many years ago.
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: Ithoriel on 13 March 2023, 09:45:52 AM
Not aware of any 1/4800 scale WW2 stuff. Tumbling Dice are the only ones doing that scale that I'm aware of and they are Anglo-Dutch Wars and Napoleonics.

Magister Militum do/did 1/6000 WW2 but they seemed pricey to me when I looked at them.

Just got the rules yesterday and am planning to use my Navwar 1/3000 stuff. I might even be pushed into painting some more! There are plenty somewhere in the foothills of the lead mountains awaiting a coat of paint.
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: kustenjaeger on 13 March 2023, 10:00:18 AM
I've got some sample 1/3000 (3 x cruisers and 4 x destroyers) for the IJN and USN that I ought to finish painting and do labels for the bases.

I can't conceive of being able to go smaller than 1/3000 and, with my eyesight, have a clue what the ships are.  Even in 1/3000 I need the labels to differentiate between classes.

Edward
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: T13A on 13 March 2023, 11:00:14 AM
Hi

Many thanks to all for the swift replys.

Could someone please tell be roughly the actual size of say a 'battleship' in 1/3000 scale and are Navwar still in business? And Ithoriel, did you buy the PDF version of the rules or get a hard copy from somewhere?

Many thanks as always.

Cheers Paul


Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: Ithoriel on 13 March 2023, 11:12:59 AM
Paul,

I got a hard copy of the rules from Amazon. Print on demand and not cheap at £40 but at least I have an Amazon Prime account so no postage and delivered Saturday having been ordered Thursday evening.

I have the pdf's for the ship and aircraft data, the QRF and the "Freya" introductory scenario downloaded free from Sam Mustafa's site.

Navwar are still going or were a couple of weeks ago.

I have the Tirpitz in front of me - she's 8cm long in 1/3000.

Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: T13A on 13 March 2023, 11:23:23 AM
Hi Ithoriel

Fantastic, thanks for all the information. I would be very interested to hear what you think of the rules in due course, particularly if you can use them solo. I am left wondering how they will play on a table 6ft x 4ft when a 'capital' ship is 8cm long, I tend to like a lot of manoeuvering room in my games.  :-\

Cheers Paul
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 13 March 2023, 11:25:30 AM
Mick Yarrow has a 1/4800 naval range covering WW1 and WW2.
Shapeways do 3d prints.

Magister Militum produce the old Figurehead / Hallmark ranges (1/6000 for the world wars).
I have some of these, the detail is crisp and recognition hasn't been a problem.


Size wise, google the dimensions of the ship and divide by 4800, 3000 or whatever scale applies.
Easy enough unless you don't have a computer.


Has anybody seen the rules yet?
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: kustenjaeger on 13 March 2023, 11:49:05 AM
If anyone is using 1/3000 https://navymodelsandbooks.co.uk/news/ has the Davco range.
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: Orcs on 13 March 2023, 06:36:22 PM
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 13 March 2023, 11:25:30 AMSize wise, google the dimensions of the ship and divide by 4800, 3000 or whatever scale applies.
Easy enough unless you don't have a computer.

I am just wondering who and how someone would be reading this forum without a computer, or equivalent device?  ;D
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: fred. on 13 March 2023, 08:16:47 PM
QuoteI am just wondering who and how someone would be reading this forum without a computer, or equivalent device?  ;D
Doesn't one have your man print off a copy to peruse over you early morning cup of tea?

Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: T13A on 13 March 2023, 08:34:20 PM
Hi

Couldn't resist, Amazon currently have a discount on the rules, down from £40.00 to £31.53 and free postage using my son's Prime account. Should be here Wednesday. Now to decide on scale of ships...... and British v Italian in the Med. or maybe the Pacific, decisions, decisions.... :-\

Cheers Paul
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: Ithoriel on 13 March 2023, 08:48:50 PM
Quote from: T13A on 13 March 2023, 11:23:23 AMI am left wondering how they will play on a table 6ft x 4ft when a 'capital' ship is 8cm long, I tend to like a lot of manoeuvering room in my games.  :-\

The table is assumed to scroll. If a ship that is not disengaging leaves the table everything moves so as to create space. As the rules say, if you need to make space in two dimensions at once you need a bigger table or smaller ship models :-)
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: Ithoriel on 13 March 2023, 09:30:59 PM
I made the mistake of looking at Magister Militum's 1/6000th scale stuff.

I do fancy Iron Bottom Sound in 1/6000 :)

Now, where do I find a professional painter with the patience and eyesight to do scores of 1/6000 ships and the time to paint them before I go haring off to the next project?
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: Duke Speedy of Leighton on 13 March 2023, 09:40:26 PM
Quote from: kustenjaeger on 13 March 2023, 11:49:05 AMIf anyone is using 1/3000 https://navymodelsandbooks.co.uk/news/ has the Davco range.
Beat me to it
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 13 March 2023, 10:53:11 PM

QuoteI made the mistake of looking at Magister Militum's 1/6000th scale stuff.

I do fancy Iron Bottom Sound in 1/6000 :)

Now, where do I find a professional painter with the patience and eyesight to do scores of 1/6000 ships and the time to paint them before I go haring off to the next project?
Some while back, but I painted the bulk of WW2's capital ships in under a week.

The 1/6000 are a great example of smaller minis requiring far less work.
My suggested order of painting used to be posted on the Hallmark website.

From memory.
   Main colour all over the ships.
   Pick out wooden decks where appropriate (Many navies had adopted a linoleum substitute 
       or stripped the wood as a fire risk by WW2).
   Apply a wash that picks out turrets and other upper works detail.

   Ocean colour on the textured sea bases.
   Wash slightly darker.
   Drybrush slightly lighter.

   Glue the ships onto the bases.
   Very light white drybrush of bow and stern waves.

   Paint tab at back of base a national colour, and ink on a three letter/digit identifier.
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: kustenjaeger on 13 March 2023, 11:39:59 PM
Quote from: T13A on 13 March 2023, 08:34:20 PMHi

Couldn't resist, Amazon currently have a discount on the rules, down from £40.00 to £31.53 and free postage using my son's Prime account. Should be here Wednesday. Now to decide on scale of ships...... and British v Italian in the Med. or maybe the Pacific, decisions, decisions.... :-\

Cheers Paul

Thanks Paul - I hadn't noticed the Amazon sale price so I have just snapped up a copy.

Edward
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: hammurabi70 on 14 March 2023, 01:27:43 AM
Quote from: T13A on 13 March 2023, 11:23:23 AMHi Ithoriel

Fantastic, thanks for all the information. I would be very interested to hear what you think of the rules in due course, particularly if you can use them solo. I am left wondering how they will play on a table 6ft x 4ft when a 'capital' ship is 8cm long, I tend to like a lot of manoeuvering room in my games.  :-\

Cheers Paul

Solo depends on your view of Solo.  Each side rolls a die with the higher choosing whether to move first and then fire first or to move second and fire second having suffered from the opponents firing: do you want to have the advantage of manoeuvre or the advantage of first fire?  Other than that it makes no difference.  Essentially all ships move at the same general speeds, which is divided into fast, normal or slow, with the last being compulsory when badly damaged. There are short and long ranges for guns with calibre having no difference but there is a division between big guns (capital ships and heavy cruisers) and small guns (light cruisers and below, secondary armament).  Torpedoes are treated as guns that do a different sort of damage but are only used at short range, unless you are Japanese.  Game play is reduced to a few core principles so will not attract the 'rivet-counter' player but for those who are happy with non-complex rules it should give a good game.  The first trial play at the club has given it the thumbs up.
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: paulr on 14 March 2023, 04:59:34 AM
Thanks for the summary hammurabi70

While definitely not a 'rivet-counter' I want a bit more differentiation ;)

I'll be sticking GQ I//II :)

We use Navwar 1:3,000 ships and are very happy with the balance between detail and table space
The ordering process is a little old school but the service is prompt

My Iron Bottom Sound terrain is 1:18,000 which matches the revised ground scale we use for GQ I/II :D
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: hammurabi70 on 16 March 2023, 07:26:52 PM
Additionally there is HALSEY, which covers operational aspects.  That runs on three turns to the day: AM, PM, Night.  This covers air operations, submarines and so forth.  I know nothing of it other than flipping the pages but it is impressive that the rules aim to give you an integrated experience.
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: fulcrum on 18 March 2023, 09:21:55 AM
Nanwar are still in business, I faxed an order on Thursday night and my credit card has been charged by "Navwar".

You can't email, phone or place an order on the website - you have to physically post or fax it.

Regards

Lee
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: flamingpig0 on 18 March 2023, 09:28:29 AM
Quote from: fulcrum on 18 March 2023, 09:21:55 AMNanwar are still in business, I faxed an order on Thursday night and my credit card has been charged by "Navwar".

You can't email, phone or place an order on the website - you have to physically post or fax it.

Regards

Lee

Somewhere there is a joke about Brexit.
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: fsn on 18 March 2023, 10:02:59 AM
QuoteNanwar are still in business,
If only it were Nanwar.  :D
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/ABgNxvbk95V3W/giphy.gif)
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: Ithoriel on 18 March 2023, 02:51:50 PM
Just played out a game inspired by the Battle of the River Plate.

Photos were taken :)

I'll upload them later and post an AAR.

It proved to be a fun little game though the dice definitely favoured one side. Was tempted to fudge die rolls a couple of times but resisted and I'm glad I did.
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: flamingpig0 on 18 March 2023, 03:04:08 PM
Quote from: fsn on 18 March 2023, 10:02:59 AMIf only it were Nanwar.  :D
(https://media3.giphy.com/media/ABgNxvbk95V3W/giphy.gif)

That is how I see the House of Commons
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: mollinary on 18 March 2023, 04:10:24 PM
My 'decisive' attacks usually culminate in this, but at 20paces! 

Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: T13A on 18 March 2023, 04:21:24 PM
Hi Lee

QuoteNanwar are still in business, I faxed an order on Thursday night and my credit card has been charged by "Navwar"

Apologies if I am being really dumb but did you put all of your credit card details order in your fax? It just that I wiil be putting an order in myself soon.

Cheers Paul
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: hammurabi70 on 19 March 2023, 12:40:59 AM
Quote from: Ithoriel on 18 March 2023, 02:51:50 PMJust played out a game inspired by the Battle of the River Plate.

Photos were taken :)

I'll upload them later and post an AAR.


Please do!
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: paulr on 19 March 2023, 06:11:21 AM
QuoteHi Lee

Apologies if I am being really dumb but did you put all of your credit card details order in your fax? It just that I wiil be putting an order in myself soon.

Cheers Paul

In my experience the short answer yes, the only other way is to phone him during shop hours (Saturday afternoon IIRC), a bit tricky & costly from the Antipodes

The good news is that fax is so rare that the odds of the info going astray is pretty remote ;)
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: hammurabi70 on 19 March 2023, 03:27:44 PM
Quote from: steve_holmes_11 on 13 March 2023, 10:53:11 PMSome while back, but I painted the bulk of WW2's capital ships in under a week.

The 1/6000 are a great example of smaller minis requiring far less work.
My suggested order of painting used to be posted on the Hallmark website.

From memory.
   Main colour all over the ships.
   Pick out wooden decks where appropriate (Many navies had adopted a linoleum substitute
       or stripped the wood as a fire risk by WW2).
   Apply a wash that picks out turrets and other upper works detail.

   Ocean colour on the textured sea bases.
   Wash slightly darker.
   Drybrush slightly lighter.

   Glue the ships onto the bases.
   Very light white drybrush of bow and stern waves.

   Paint tab at back of base a national colour, and ink on a three letter/digit identifier.

Thanks for that, very useful tips for painting.  However, I have been fighting off the lure of 1/6000 with my IBS game for years.  I already have so many painting jobs in hand I think I can avoid the temptation ... for now.  Any photos to go with your fleets and AARs for 1/6000 ships?  Are they very visible at any distance other than close?
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 19 March 2023, 09:48:14 PM

QuoteThanks for that, very useful tips for painting.  However, I have been fighting off the lure of 1/6000 with my IBS game for years.  I already have so many painting jobs in hand I think I can avoid the temptation ... for now.  Any photos to go with your fleets and AARs for 1/6000 ships?  Are they very visible at any distance other than close?
I'm afraid I don't have photographs.

I was really impressed by the sharp detail.
This allows a wash to really pick up the details.

I tend to do ship recognition by silhouette, and have no problem distinguishing battleships and cruisers at that scale.
I would most certainly struggle if a battle involved a mix of destroyer classes.
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: fulcrum on 20 March 2023, 03:34:30 PM
Quote from: paulr on 19 March 2023, 06:11:21 AMHi Lee

Apologies if I am being really dumb but did you put all of your credit card details order in your fax? It just that I wiil be putting an order in myself soon.

Cheers Paul

Yes, They have an order form that is designed to be printed off, but I just kncoked up a letter giving code, description, price total etc saved it as a pdf and used "PDF24 Fax" to send it (allows 5 free fax's a month for free and doesn't rquire you to have a fax machine).

Glad that Nanwar sparked a bit of debate   :D

Lee
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: pierre the shy on 20 March 2023, 05:32:14 PM
QuoteYes, They have an order form that is designed to be printed off, but I just knocked up a letter giving code, description, price total etc saved it as a pdf and used "PDF24 Fax" to send it (allows 5 free fax's a month for free and doesn't rquire you to have a fax machine).

That could be a dangerous piece of information in itself now the local place were I used to fax from has finally got rid of their dedicated fax machine!  ;)
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: fulcrum on 20 March 2023, 05:53:31 PM
Quote from: pierre the shy on 20 March 2023, 05:32:14 PMThat could be a dangerous piece of information in itself now the local place were I used to fax from has finally got rid of their dedicated fax machine!  ;)

Sorry  :d

My work here is done!

Lee
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: fulcrum on 21 March 2023, 01:10:45 PM
Navwar (sometimes spelt Nanwar) parcel arrived today (ordered Thurs evening last week).

If anyone wants to know the current contents of the WW2 starter fleets, let me know.

Regards

Lee
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: hammurabi70 on 21 March 2023, 02:38:29 PM
QuoteNavwar (sometimes spelt Nanwar) parcel arrived today (ordered Thurs evening last week).

If anyone wants to know the current contents of the WW2 starter fleets, let me know.

Regards

Lee

is it a long list?
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: fulcrum on 21 March 2023, 03:19:51 PM
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 21 March 2023, 02:38:29 PMis it a long list?


There are 12 starter packs, each with 10ish items
Great Britain early
German early
France Early
Italy
USA early
Japan early
Soviet Union
Breat Britain late
Germany late
France late
USA late
Japan late

I'll just start typing....
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: fulcrum on 21 March 2023, 04:31:39 PM
Each starter pack has a minimum 6 Capital ships, 4 Cruisers and 8 Destroyers
Projected ships are marked *
x4 DD means you get 4 ships (destroyers are usuall 2 to a pack)
The contents cab vary, but this is the list that came with my order today

FPWW1 Great Britain - early
Capital Ships
N1105    Rodney     BB
N1107    Royal Oak  BB
N1108d   Malaya     BB
N1153a   Repulse    BB
N1205    Ark Royal  CV
N1206    Furious    CV
Cruisers
N1303    Norfolk    CA
N1322    Ajax       CL
N1325a   Cairo   x2 CLAA
Destroyers
N1511    Tribal Class x4    DD
N1514a   A/H Class    x4    DD

FPWW2 Germany - early
Capital Ships
N3102    Bismark        BB
N3102a   Tirpitz        BB
N3152    Gneisenau      BC
N3153a   Adm Graf Spee  BC
N3153b   Adm Scheer     BC
Cruisers
N3302    Hipper    CA
N3110    Koln   x3 CL
Destroyers
N3502b   "Narvik" Class   x4  DD
N3503    Von Roeder Class x4  DD

FPWW3 France - early
Capital Ships
N2103    Dunkerque   BB
N2103a   Strasburg   BB
N2106a   Lorraine    BB
N2106b   Bretagne    BB
N2107a   Courbet     BB
N2203    Bearn       CV
Cruisers
N2301    Algerie     CA
N2315    La Galissoniere    x3 CL
Destroyers
N2505    Chevalier Paul Class  x4 DD
N2509    Le Hardi Class        x6 DD

FPWW4    Italy
Capital Ships
N4101    Littorio      x2 BB
N4104a   Andrea Doria  x2 BB
N4105a   Guilio Cesare    BB
N4201    Aquila           CV
Cruisers
N4304    Trento Class  x2 CA
N4316    Bande Nere    x2 CL
Destroyers
N4502    Oriani Class     x4 DD
N4506    Navigatori Class X4 DD

FPWW5 USA - Early
Capital Ships
N6107    California   BB
N6108a   New Mexico   BB
N6109a   Arizona      BB
N6119a   Nevada       BB
N6209    Lexington    CV
N6203    Wasp         CV
Cruisers   
N6304    New Orleans    CA
N6306    Northampton    CA
N6316    Brooklyn    x2 CL
Destroyers
N6505    Livermore Class  x4 DD
N6507a   Benham Class     x4 DD

FPWW6    Japan - early
Capital Ships
N5106a    Nagato   BB
N5108a    Hyuga    BB
N5153a    Kongo    BB
N5153b    Hiei     BB
N5205     Hiryu    CV
N5206     Chyoda   CV
Cruisers
N5304    Nachi        CA
N5316    Jintsu    x3 CL
Destroyers
N5506    Shiratsuyu x4 DD
N5508    Fubuki     x4 DD   

FPWW7    Soviet Union   
Capital Ships
N7101    Kronstadt        x2 BC*
N7102    Sovyetsky Soyuz  x2 BB*
N7105a    Marat           x2 BB
Cruisers
N7304    Kirov          x2 CA
N7306    Krasni Krim    x2 CL
Destroyers
N7500    Ognevoi    x4 DD
N7502    Gordyii    x4 DD


FPWW8 Great Britain - late
Capital Ships
N1101    Vanguard          BB
N1103a   King George V  x2 BB
N1202    Colossus       x2 CVL
N1203a   Indefatigable     CV
Cruisers
N1304a    London     CA
N1315a    Uganda     CL
N1316     Dido    x2 CLAA
Destroyers
N1505    Early Battle Class    x4 DD
N1506    S-Z Class             x4 DD

FPWW9 Germany - late
Capital Ships
N3101    H Class      x2 BB*
N3151    O,P,Q Class     BC*
N3152b   Gneisenau       BC*
N3202    Seydlitz        CV*
N3203    Jade            CV*
Cruisers
N3307    Spahkuzer 1-3    3x Scout Cruisers*
N3307a   M Class          x2 CL*
Destroyers
N3500    1945groups    x4 DD*
N3501    Z-35 Class    x4 DD*

FPWW10    France - late
Capital Ships
N2100    Alsace    x2 BB*
N2101    Gascogne     BB*
N2102    Richelieu    BB
N2102b   Clemenceau   BB*
N2202    Joffre       CV*
Cruisers
N2300    St Louis       CA*
N2315a    De Grasse  x3 CL*
Destroyers
N2502    Bayard       x4 DD*
N2504    Fantasque    x4 DD*

FPWW11 USA - late
Capital Ships
N6102    Iowa       x2 BB
N6103    Alabama    x2 BB
N6204    Essex         CV
N6205    Independence  CVL
Cruisers
N6302    Baltimore    CA
N6313    Cleveland    CL
N6315a    Flint    x2 CLAA
Destroyers
N6502    Gearing class     x4 DD
N6504    Fletcher class    x4 DD

FPWW12 Japan - late
Capital Ships
N5101a   Yamato    BB
N5105b   Nagato    BB
N5016b   Ise       CV/BB
N5201    Unryu     CV
N5214    Ryuho     CVL
N5215    Ibuki     CVL
Cruisers
N5303    Takao    x2 CA
N5315    Oyodo    x2 CL
Destroyers
N5502    Akitsuki    x4 DDAA
N5504    Yukikaze    x4 DD

Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: hammurabi70 on 21 March 2023, 09:34:42 PM
Many thanks; most kind.  You seem to have BIG plans with so many fleets!
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: paulr on 22 March 2023, 06:12:35 AM
NavWar does have a website here, http://www.navwar.co.uk/nav/ (http://www.navwar.co.uk/nav/)

You just can't buy anything directly from it
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: pierre the shy on 22 March 2023, 09:53:17 AM
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 21 March 2023, 09:34:42 PMMany thanks; most kind.  You seem to have BIG plans with so many fleets!

Scary thing is that between Paul (US and Japanese) and myself (British, Germans, Italians and French) we probably have 95% of all those ships, apart from the "what-if" capital ships  :-X 

Quote from: paulr on 22 March 2023, 06:12:35 AMNavWar does have a website here, http://www.navwar.co.uk/nav/ (http://www.navwar.co.uk/nav/)

You just can't buy anything directly from it

Not directly  ;)
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: fulcrum on 22 March 2023, 12:50:54 PM
QuoteNavWar does have a website here, http://www.navwar.co.uk/nav/ (http://www.navwar.co.uk/nav/)

You just can't buy anything directly from it

You can't order through the website (you call add things to your order, but this then needs to be printed and send off. No email option exists.

You either 1, Send on order in on paper, using the mail
                 2, Send a fax

Both options work and Mr Navwar does have a quick turn around.

Regards

Lee
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: fulcrum on 22 March 2023, 12:53:45 PM
Quote from: hammurabi70 on 21 March 2023, 09:34:42 PMMany thanks; most kind.  You seem to have BIG plans with so many fleets!

I don't have all those fleets, they are the "Starter Fleets" for £13.50, the contents of which aren't on the website.

Regards

Lee
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 03 August 2024, 10:41:00 AM
Duplicate (removed)
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: Orcs on 03 August 2024, 03:18:46 PM
Quote from: fred. on 13 March 2023, 08:16:47 PMDoesn't one have your man print off a copy to peruse over you early morning cup of tea?



My early morning cup of tea is delivered to me in bed by Mrs Orcs. I think getting her to print off documents and bring them to me with my tea might jeopardize both the tea and my good health.
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 22 August 2024, 10:47:27 AM

QuoteI'm afraid I don't have photographs.

I was really impressed by the sharp detail.
This allows a wash to really pick up the details.

I tend to do ship recognition by silhouette, and have no problem distinguishing battleships and cruisers at that scale.
I would most certainly struggle if a battle involved a mix of destroyer classes.


A follow up, since I obtained the Nimitz rules last week and dug out my 1/6000s for a couple fo solo plays.

First up, like many smaller scales (eg 6mm figures) I had forgotten how truly tiny they were.
A battleship is about 4cm long, dome destroyers about 16mm.

My eyesight has faded since I obtained and painted these models.
This means I cannot easily make out all their detail, and I cannot read the tiny recognition codes I once inscribed on their base tabs.
I solved this potential problem by snipping up Post it notes and sticking a piece under each base with a visible recognition code protruding.

The other problem is locating the actual aim point as specified by the Nimitz rules (The centre funnel).
I switched to using the front of the base.
This worked, but created some odd geometries where ships apparently at broadsides were actually shooting from their rear arc.
I'll review this in future.


Having played a couple of small games solo, I thought I'd share impressions.

The rules are well written and generally elegant.

I found myself suffering the dreaded WRG "brain fog" into relatively small games.
Several factors could be at play here:
 * Playing new rules and playing solo.
 * Handling rosters, shooting factors and the sole look up table (I've lost the habit of going form roster to QRS to table).
 * The grey cells decelerating with age.

I hope this will improve with practice and when playing with live opponents.


Moving on to gameplay.

The game is extremely streamlined, and much detail is abstracted.
It manages to maintain a ship's character. You will use its actual guns and torpedoes. Speed and Armour are abstracted into a number of bands.

Guns operate in two range bands.
This surprisingly works given the generous movement allowances.

There is no massive pile of hitpoints to write down, instead each ship has two damage tracks: structure and buoyancy.
Gunfire reduces structure while torpedoes reduce buoyancy.
When either falls "into the red" the ship becomes crippled and various subsystems degrade.

Gunnery hits can also cause the misleadingly named "criticals".
I regard a critical as something that does exceptional amounts of damage.
In Nimitz, criticals are systems hits, losing items like turrets (primary or secondary), torpedoes, gun directors or the infamous magazine hit (Subject to armour penetration).

Missing is any way for a lucky gun hit to cause engine damage and reduce the enemy speed.
Only torpedoes can do this, through ships do slow down when crippled.
I considered this an omission.

Movement is generous.
A clever turn sequence (slower ships moving earlier) and restrictive turning (One turn in a move, up to 90 degrees) still present challenges in lining up the perfect shot.

Even playing solo, I found it difficult to position my destroyers for a torpedo launch.
And every turn they spent within range of enemy secondaries, they are in real danger.

The movement looks nothing like the elegant tracks you'll find in books describing naval battles.
I sense an element of chess, where opponents will gradually adapt tactics to protect their ships when moving first, but leaving aggressive moves open when playing second.
Rather like a snooker game, thinking several moves ahead will likely pay dividends.

A final minor gripe is the length of time required to finish off damaged an unsupported enemies.
The dice can conspire to miss against even a stationary hulk a close range.
The "criticals" can see your mortal blow fail to punch through armour, and the shells sail through the gap where the gun director once stood.
Other dud shots are possible like criticals against secondaries or torpedo types on ships that have none.


Nimitz gives a quick game that requires thinking.
Ships feel and behave like their historic counterparts.
Abstraction has been used to simplify and streamline the game, with the occasional odd result occurring.
And occasionally your dice will treat you abominably.

The abstraction is such that most battleships feel quite distinctive:
The Queen Elizabeths and R-class are similar but have differences.
Japanse Fuso and Ise classes are similar enough to share a template, as do the American North Carolinas and South Dakotas.

Down at cruiser level, the abstraction begins to flatten differences.
While 8" guns are rated large (and can potentially hurt battleshile) while 6" guns are small, speed and damage tracks are pretty similar for ships that obeyed the 10,000 ton treaty limit.

When it comes to destroyers, there are relatively few distinctions.
All have similar buoyancy and speed, but differ in armament.


My very limited experience is that battles work best up to one step of difference.
Battleships and Cruisers, or cruisers and destroyers.

Destroyers in a battleship fight will whizz about looking for Torpedo shots, but will each consume as much game time as teh capital ships.
Consider how some Horse and musket wargame rules have very fussy skirmish rules, and you spend 80% of yoru time evaluating largely indecisive skirmish actions.
There's certainly a danger of destroyers doing this here: Taking long odds shots in the home of hitting a battleship's radar, or limping about the table in a crippled state.

Destroyers certainly have their place, but I didn't use them well in my playtests.
Rather than an aggressive opener, hold them back to finish off enemy cripples, or save them for night actions.


I sense there's a good game in Nimitz if I can persuade my landlubber opponents to weight anchor and damn the torpedoes.
It doesn't do everything I hoped, but is the best set of naval rules for my needs.
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: Last Hussar on 22 August 2024, 11:34:49 AM
Steve - I have GQ1/2 - would you say Nimitz is a better option? I've been looking at getting back into WW2 Naval.

For aiming point, would it be with considering some sort of markers on each side of the midpoint of the base?
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 22 August 2024, 01:33:25 PM

QuoteSteve - I have GQ1/2 - would you say Nimitz is a better option? I've been looking at getting back into WW2 Naval.

For aiming point, would it be with considering some sort of markers on each side of the midpoint of the base?
I prefer Nimitz to GQ 1/2.

I've played both and GQ felt like more of a grind and required a much larger table (even at centimetre scale).

Both work on abstractions, though Nimitz typically uses fewer, broader categories (I consider them well chosen).

Nimitz, for example, avoids the need for elaborate calculations.
It uses two range bands for two weights of gun.
  * Fear not, your 16" guns will do more damage than competing 14" or 8" "Heavy" guns.

It uses three armour ratings for battleships and three for cruisers.
Its torpedo method is similar enough to gunfire to not grind the game to a halt.

 


Something I neglected to mention is that Nimitz comes with a campaign system Halsey.
I've not read the Halsey part of the book yet, so son't comment on how it plays.

I have established that its map moves take place on a squared grid.
It introduces airstrikes, submarines, repairs (and frogmen if you're Italian).
All the stuff that actually happened, but isn't easily accommodated on a tabletop.



I've considered adding dots to the side of my ship's bases to mark their location.
I think I have about 250 little boats, so that's a lot of work.

I'm also considering adding an offset mark to the templates, which isn't as precise.
But it involves updating just four items instead of 250.
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: fred. on 22 August 2024, 07:03:32 PM

QuoteI found myself suffering the dreaded WRG "brain fog" into relatively small games.
Several factors could be at play here:
 * Playing new rules and playing solo.
 * Handling rosters, shooting factors and the sole look up table (I've lost the habit of going form roster to QRS to table).
 * The grey cells decelerating with age.

I hope this will improve with practice and when playing with live opponents.

I think it will be a lot to do with new rules and playing solo. I find that a second player helps with remembering key bits of the rules - or at least challenging when they think something is wrong / not in their favour!

The same with playing both sides, it takes more mental effort. 

Will be interested to see how the games develop as you get more familiar - I suspect there is a role for destroyers, otherwise they would have been abstracted away. Sam's Rommel only has Tanks, Infantry and Artillery. All other unit types are abstracted away - so he's not afraid to take some pretty radical design choices to get a game of the right scale. 
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: steve_holmes_11 on 22 August 2024, 07:58:31 PM

QuoteI think it will be a lot to do with new rules and playing solo. I find that a second player helps with remembering key bits of the rules - or at least challenging when they think something is wrong / not in their favour!

The same with playing both sides, it takes more mental effort.

Will be interested to see how the games develop as you get more familiar - I suspect there is a role for destroyers, otherwise they would have been abstracted away. Sam's Rommel only has Tanks, Infantry and Artillery. All other unit types are abstracted away - so he's not afraid to take some pretty radical design choices to get a game of the right scale.
Yes, I expect growing familiarity and a second player will help.


I'm working on the assumption that Destroyer's role will be similar to that in the 1930s - 40s.
 * Blowing up bigger ships with torpedoes.
 * Chasing off enemy destroyers.
 * Blowing up submarines (in campaign games).

I think their lack of impact in my early game reflected my lack of sailing ability.
I presently have all the skills of a submarine deckhand in the Zimbabwean navy.
This ought to improve with practice.


Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: pierre the shy on 23 August 2024, 05:57:55 AM
Not played Nimitz but heard some pretty good comments about them.

I'm a long term GQ 1/2 player myself. They tick all my WW1/2 naval boxes and are very good at handling night actions and torpedoes etc while also reflecting historical differences between various navies.   
Title: Re: Sam Mustafa's New WWII Naval Rules - Nimitz
Post by: paulr on 24 August 2024, 05:18:22 AM
Seconded, looking forward to using GQ 1/2 in the Med next weekend :)

I still think the Strategic 'set' should have been Nimitz and the tactical 'set' Halsey (assuming they favour rash aggression ;) )