Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Hello there, I've got FWC and while I really like the command system and the abstraction of the profiles, I haven't managed to interpret how exactly assault moves, reaction fire and opportunity fire interact.
There's two broad cases: either assaulting in the initiative phase or in the command phase.

Assaulting in the initiative phase
You move an eligible unit (in initiative range, in LoS and not suppressed) in base contact with the target enemy unit.
The target, and all of his friends within 10cm, will react by firing on the assaulting unit if eligible (not suppressed and able to get LoS on the assaulter while it approaches).
The assaulting unit will move to contact even if suppressed.

You can now decide to resolve the assault immediately, in which case both units in base contact fight, and all units within 10cm and LoS offer support.
You can also decide to wait to resolve the assault while more units get into position.
If this position is in support of the assault, tough luck for the opponent, as there is no opportunity fire during the initiative phase.
Is this correct so far? Several questions now:

• What happens instead if the position your subsequent unit is moving to is instead another assault, either against the same target, or one of the other enemy units supporting it? Does the new target and all friends within 10cm, if eligible, do reaction fire again, this time against the new assaulting unit, even if they had just done so against the former unit?
• Does being already contacted base-to-base disallow reaction fire?

Assaulting in the command phase
You pre-declare any actions for the formation you're attempting to activate, including which of your units will assault which enemy units, and which of your units will instead move in support of which specific assault.

All the enemy units either directly targeted by an assault, or those within 10cm of them, if not suppressed and able to get LoS on the approaching units, will be eligible to use reaction fire.
They can allocate their attacks only against approaching units directly participating in that specific assault.
For example, two enemy units side by side, both contacted on the same order by two of my units, will have to direct their reaction fire against the specific assaulting unit moving into contact with it. If there was a third enemy unit behind the two, it would have to decide on which of the two assaulting units it would direct its reaction fire, provided it could get LoS on them while they approach.

You then resolve all reaction fires. If suppressed, assaulting units meaning to reach base contact will move anyway, while those meaning to get in a position to support the assault will stop where they got suppressed.

On top of this, all units involved in an assault, either executing reaction fire, or moving in base-to-base or support, cannot use opportunity fire.
Is this correct so far? Several other questions:

• How about enemy units not involved in an assault? Can they fire opportunity fire on the assaulting units? Does this happen before or after any reaction fire by the assaulted units?
• What happens if any targeted assaulting units get suppressed by opportunity fire? Would you treat it as if it were reaction fire by the assaulted units?
• How about units moving as part of an assault to reach a support position, that get suppressed by opportunity fire while already within 10cm of the assaulted unit? Are they subject to the reaction fire that targets all assaulting units, even if they won't actually support the assault (since they're suppressed)?
• Can I choose for a unit in defensive support to not participate in any assaults happening within 10cm of it, in order to do opportunity fire?
• If activated as part of the same formation as other units intending to assault the enemy, can one of my units already within 10cm of the enemy first fire, and then support the upcoming assault?

Thanks to anybody who has the patience to answer (even) some of that.

PS bonus question

• Are recce units able to fire on their initative if there's an enemy in initiative range during the appropriate phase?

Hi Stone Dog

My replies are in-line in your quote - in Bold.
FYI - this is my last reply on the forum for at least 2-3 weeks, as I am incommunicado, from 16.00hrs GMT today.
So If I dont reply - do not dispair ... as they say in the movies "I will be back!"  :D 

QuoteHello there, I've got FWC and while I really like the command system and the abstraction of the profiles, I haven't managed to interpret how exactly assault moves, reaction fire and opportunity fire interact.
There's two broad cases: either assaulting in the initiative phase or in the command phase.

Assaulting in the initiative phase
You move an eligible unit (in initiative range, in LoS and not suppressed) in base contact with the target enemy unit.
The target, and all of his friends within 10cm, will react by firing on the assaulting unit if eligible (not suppressed and able to get LoS on the assaulter while it approaches).
The assaulting unit will move to contact even if suppressed.

You can now decide to resolve the assault immediately, in which case both units in base contact fight, and all units within 10cm and LoS offer support.
You can also decide to wait to resolve the assault while more units get into position.
If this position is in support of the assault, tough luck for the opponent, as there is no opportunity fire during the initiative phase.
Is this correct so far? Several questions now:
> Yes ... you have grasped that correctly

• What happens instead if the position your subsequent unit is moving to is instead another assault,
  > do you mean the supporting units? If so, then if they move into assault against a different target enemy (not the one that they shot at in support, that is treated as a fresh assault, either against the same target > if it is the same enemy & the original assaulting friendly unit is still around and able to assault, the supporting unit moves into contact with the target enemy unit and acts as a fighting support to the original attacking unit, or one of the other enemy units supporting it? > that is counted as a new assault. Does the new target and all friends within 10cm, if eligible, do reaction fire again >Yes, as it is a new assault, this time against the new assaulting unit, even if they had just done so against the former unit?
• Does being already contacted base-to-base disallow reaction fire? > NB: Assaulting is hard against unsuppressed enemy

Assaulting in the command phase
You pre-declare any actions for the formation you're attempting to activate, including which of your units will assault which enemy units, and which of your units will instead move in support of which specific assault.

All the enemy units either directly targeted by an assault, or those within 10cm of them, if not suppressed and able to get LoS on the approaching units, will be eligible to use reaction fire.
They can allocate their attacks only against approaching units directly participating in that specific assault.
For example, two enemy units side by side, both contacted on the same order by two of my units, will have to direct their reaction fire against the specific assaulting unit moving into contact with it. > Correct. If there was a third enemy unit behind the two, it would have to decide on which of the two assaulting units it would direct its reaction fire, provided it could get LoS on them while they approach.> Correct. NB: some Massive units can split fire from multiple weapons, usually as long as the two targets are within 5cm of each other - see notes in army lists

You then resolve all reaction fires. If suppressed, assaulting units meaning to reach base contact will move anyway, while those meaning to get in a position to support the assault will stop where they got suppressed. >Yes, unless KO'd all assaults go in, if suppressed the assaulting units will fight at a disadvantage (NB: this is a rules mechanism to avoid stalemates in assault)

On top of this, all units involved in an assault, either executing reaction fire, or moving in base-to-base or support, cannot use opportunity fire. > Yes, correct - there is no 'Opportunity Fire' in an assault, as it is either direct fire from the assaulted units or support fire (within the 10cm range).
Is this correct so far? Several other questions:

• How about enemy units not involved in an assault? Can they fire opportunity fire on the assaulting units? > No. Unless they are supporting the assaulting or assaulted unit, they cannot use Opportunity fire. The Attacker can 'soften-up' a unit due to be assaulted, but that must happen in the turn before the assault. So get your artillery, air strikes, long-range mortars etc. to hit your assault target the go before you assault.
  Does this happen before or after any reaction fire by the assaulted units?
• What happens if any targeted assaulting units get suppressed by opportunity fire? > it cannot. That is why Opportunity fire is not permitted in an Assault. Would you treat it as if it were reaction fire by the assaulted units?
• How about units moving as part of an assault to reach a support position, that get suppressed by opportunity fire while already within 10cm of the assaulted unit? > If you have ordered them as part of the Order to Assault, they cannot be targetted by Opportunity fire. If they were ordered separately - ahead of the assault order - they can be targetted by Opportunity fire and can be suppressed.
  Are they subject to the reaction fire that targets all assaulting units, even if they won't actually support the assault (since they're suppressed)? > No. Only the main Assaulting unit can be targeted - whilst the supporting units may contact the enemy, the combat is resolved through the main assaulting unit, which is why the results of an assault effect all units involved in the assault & supporting it
• Can I choose for a unit in defensive support to not participate in any assaults happening within 10cm of it, in order to do opportunity fire? > You can chose to a unit that could potentially be a supporting unit from an assault, but only before it has shot supportively. It can then use Opportunity fire, but not against the enemy unit assaulting or its supporting units
• If activated as part of the same formation as other units intending to assault the enemy, can one of my units already within 10cm of the enemy first fire, and then support the upcoming assault? > No, not within the same Order. Once a unit is allocated to support an Assault, unless you chose to drop it before it has fired or fought in support, it is committed to the assault and cannot shoot via Commanded fire or Opportunity fire, as part of the assault

Thanks to anybody who has the patience to answer (even) some of that.

PS bonus question

• Are recce units able to fire on their initiative if there's an enemy in initiative range during the appropriate phase? > Yes. In that respect the behave like any other unit.

I hope all that helps Stone Dog? It can help to play through a few assault 'scenarios' with a small number of units to get your head around the order of play.
Assaulting is hard - unless you have overwhelming odds or your opponent has been damaged or suppressed. So preparing for an assault is critical for success.
Good luck. I would be interested to hear how you get on & remember ... "Kill them. Kill then all!"  :D

Mark

First of all, thanks for answering, I really appreciate it. You were pretty exhaustive, but if you don't mind, I've still got some questions for whenever you'll come back.

• If I understood correctly, when you successfully order a formation, you're not forced to have every constituent unit undertake the same action.
  What happens if only part of a formation I've successfully ordered participates in an assault?
  Am I right in assuming the non assaulting part of my formation is still subject to opportunity fire from enemies that aren't involved in the assault?
• If a unit is in a defensive support position for more than one nearby assault, does it have to lend its reaction fire and its assault support to the same assault?
• Can an AFV unit with stabilized weapons fire with the penalty and then move to assault (or support an assault)?
  
• Still not clear about what happens when you assault with a unit under Initiative, but before resolving the assault, you trigger another in 10cm distance. I attached some pictures to explain better what I mean.
  In pic 01, A has just assaulted 1 on its Initiative, and has gotten reaction fire from 1, 2 and 3.
  In pic 02, before the assault is resolved, C moves in contact with 2. Who does it get reaction fire from?
  Pic 03 is an alternative to pic 02. Who does B get reaction fire from?

(https://i.imgur.com/3ZRRlFh.png)

Some thoughts from me to your new questions:
1) You are correct that not all units under a single order have to do the same action.  You'll see on page 37 of FWC under the heading "Resolution" that "An assault initiated during the command phase should be resolved once all units have carried out their actions for the current order".  I interpret that to mean that you resolve the actions of the non-assaulting units acting under the order before doing the assaults.

2) Personally I don't see any reason why (assuming your support unit can see both attackers) it couldn't response fire at one attacker and then support the defender in the other assault.

3) Provided he has enough movement to get to the enemy unit he wants to assault, I don't see why not.

4) They all get to fire in response at the first assaulting unit as it moves in, and then at the second assaulting unit as it moves in.  (Assuming they can meet line-of-fire restrictions prohibiting firing through their own units).

Quote from: dylan on 24 February 2023, 05:29:53 AMSome thoughts from me to your new questions:
1) You are correct that not all units under a single order have to do the same action.  You'll see on page 37 of FWC under the heading "Resolution" that "An assault initiated during the command phase should be resolved once all units have carried out their actions for the current order".  I interpret that to mean that you resolve the actions of the non-assaulting units acting under the order before doing the assaults.

2) Personally I don't see any reason why (assuming your support unit can see both attackers) it couldn't response fire at one attacker and then support the defender in the other assault.

3) Provided he has enough movement to get to the enemy unit he wants to assault, I don't see why not.

4) They all get to fire in response at the first assaulting unit as it moves in, and then at the second assaulting unit as it moves in.  (Assuming they can meet line-of-fire restrictions prohibiting firing through their own units).

Yup - that all works and is rule compliant.
Assaulting was (IMHO) always one of the most complex mechanisms within the Commander series of rules mechanisms, but generally it got the result that you'd anticipate in 'real life'.

Apologies for the delayed replies - I have been out of action having a major operation.
Cheers
Mark

Hi Stone Dog welcome to the madhouse

Thanks for the answers, guys, very helpful.

Quote from: Big Insect on 05 March 2023, 03:33:42 PMAssaulting was (IMHO) always one of the most complex mechanisms within the Commander series of rules mechanisms, but generally it got the result that you'd anticipate in 'real life'.

Players certainly learnt quickly to suppress any troops they plan to assault otherwise it's a blood bath with the attacker wiped out.

Unless you are bugs in abundance against a small force of course :)