Can't quite get my head round the idea removing hits at the end of a turn. If, say, an AFV has received so many damaging hits it's on the point of destruction, how come it's (always) 100% fighting fit next turn?
Or, do most players use the optional rule of leaving hits on?
Lots of people have problems with this. Yes you can use the optional leave hits on, this makes the "super tanks" much more vulnerable. It is also more accurate if you are using 1 model = 1 model. With platoon bases the hit may be damage to one vehicle only, or minor fixable damage, loss of radios or a thrown track perhapes which can be fixed. It could also be crew panic. Note that the number of hits a base can take is not related to the number of vehicles in a platoon/troop.
It is a core rules mechanism.
As stated by Ian - a unit is more than 1 vehicle etc. and hits do not necessarily represent fully disabling impacts.
You can always choose to play the Optional rule - where hits remain on.
It speeds up the game considerably, but it also mean more book-keeping.
Thanks
Mark
I'm inexperienced in these rules and the topic is The Marmite Clause. What effects the hits have in their narrative is for the individual and could add to the story of the battle; whether it's a quick kill by hits accumulation or a brief crew panic before normal service is resumed. For the sake of clarity, I prefer wax, sorry, hits off. What it does do is reduce the luck of the dice. And in a game like BKC4 that can't be a bad thing.
Thanks all for the very prompt replies.
It appears I have a very interesting set of rules, that's got me furiously painting up 12mm troops, but am presented with two very different game options.
Of course, whichever you choose it's the same for both players so, in a way, it doesn't matter. However, I'm finding it very difficult to justify ALL non-terminal damage being removed EVERY move.
Wouldn't a 'more realistic' way of combining the two 'versions' be to increase the value of saves? Giving a super tank a save of, say, 2 would reduce its chances of an early exit but still allow cumulative damage to take its toll. Then 3 for heavy tanks, 4 for mediums and so on?
I suspect the writers may well have tried something like this. Or have they?
I leave hits on as it just works for me. On the old forum there were ideas that you removed some of the hits at the end of the Turn, based upon unit quality. So a Veteran unit (infantry or armour) might remove most or all of them, whilst a Green unit might only remove one or leave all of them on.
I'd day try out the options availalbe and see what really works best for you.
I'm not a fan of 'house rules' Steve. Yes, you can end up with a set of rules you personally like, but it severely restricts playing against opponents from a wider field.
I'm primarily an ancients player and get to play in events all over the country against a wide variety of other players. It's fun, it's more sociable and, because we're using a common set of rules (ADLG for me), it's very easy to play, as most of the problems get ironed out over time.
I think it's the same with rule sets such as 40K, FoW, Bolt Action, etc. Standardised rules help the hobby thrive...
Quote from: SK-BLitz on 22 September 2022, 11:16:13 AMI'm not a fan of 'house rules' Steve. Yes, you can end up with a set of rules you personally like, but it severely restricts playing against opponents from a wider field.
I'm primarily an ancients player and get to play in events all over the country against a wide variety of other players. It's fun, it's more sociable and, because we're using a common set of rules (ADLG for me), it's very easy to play, as most of the problems get ironed out over time.
I think it's the same with rule sets such as 40K, FoW, Bolt Action, etc. Standardised rules help the hobby thrive...
Oooo another LaDG player ... maybe we should start another thread.
Where are you playing SK-Blitz and what scale?
I'm based in Blackburn, Big Insect, and play 15mm ancients all over the place (Northern League in Derby this weekend and York next month with a comp at the end of the month here in Blackburn), and am just getting into 12mm WW2 with BKC 4.
I used to play 20mm WW2 at MAWS (Manchester) using Iron Cross rules (great fun but lacking 'essentials' such as artillery and aircraft). Unfortunately, they keep changing rules at MAWS; from IC to CoC and then O Group. When my regular playing partner, a long time friend, became ill and stopped going I lost interest and flogged all the 20mm stuff on eBay and at Britcon.
Now, another old friend has got me into 10/12mm BKC 4 and, whilst I'm not keen on changing rule sets, the challenge of a new (and less expensive!) scale appeals.
However, a previous post mentioned lots have problems with removing hits - and I'm one of them. So, basically, we have what appears to be a great set of rules but with two different ways of playing them. For me, that's an issue. Personally, I'd like to see one set of rules used for each period (as ancients used to be with WRG 3 & 4). I think wargaming would be a lot more respected (and popular) with standardised rules (where would chess be if there were half a dozen different sets of rules?!).
I know, something of a pipedream. I've more chance of winning EuroMillions! 😊
QuoteI'm based in Blackburn, Big Insect, and play 15mm ancients all over the place (Northern League in Derby this weekend and York next month with a comp at the end of the month here in Blackburn), and am just getting into 12mm WW2 with BKC 4.
I used to play 20mm WW2 at MAWS (Manchester) using Iron Cross rules (great fun but lacking 'essentials' such as artillery and aircraft). Unfortunately, they keep changing rules at MAWS; from IC to CoC and then O Group. When my regular playing partner, a long time friend, became ill and stopped going I lost interest and flogged all the 20mm stuff on eBay and at Britcon.
Now, another old friend has got me into 10/12mm BKC 4 and, whilst I'm not keen on changing rule sets, the challenge of a new (and less expensive!) scale appeals.
However, a previous post mentioned lots have problems with removing hits - and I'm one of them. So, basically, we have what appears to be a great set of rules but with two different ways of playing them. For me, that's an issue. Personally, I'd like to see one set of rules used for each period (as ancients used to be with WRG 3 & 4). I think wargaming would be a lot more respected (and popular) with standardised rules (where would chess be if there were half a dozen different sets of rules?!).
I know, something of a pipedream. I've more chance of winning EuroMillions! 😊
Thanks SK - on the one-set of rules - to be clear, the official way to play is that Hits Are Removed. If I was running a BKC (or CWC or FWC) competition, that is the way I'd be ruling as the umpire (author). The official Optional Rules are there to allow for different styles of play. I know some players use the Fast Play Recce, Auto Suppression (on 2 hits from off-table artillery or air strikes) and Hits Stay On, as a means of playing a devilishly fast play game.
I'm down in Bristol - and we play a lot of 28mm LaDG down in the West Country - but I have masses of 15mm ancient and medieval armies (as I used to play a lot of Armati) and next year (when I am retired) I will be looking forward to entering more 15mm LaDG events.
I am tempted to try and make Alicante in January, as my 1st 15mm LaDG competition of my new 'retired era'.
My next LaDG event is a 1 day 28mm 110pt competition at Weston Super Mare (Sunday 9th) - which is focused on armies from the Far East and the Americas. Then I'll be competing at Warfare (28mm 200pts pre 500AD lists) and then at Brixham (28mm 200pts post 500AD list - excluding the Americas).
I did enjoy playing 300ap doubles in 15mm in Cardiff at Godendag (usually in late January) but that has drifted into also being a 28mm event.
I might take a look at the northern league events and see if I can enter some of them.
But I still have masses of Cold War Commander II army lists to launch and also Future War Commander II is going to need my attention as well. But I do need to get some of my old Armati armies out, and add a couple more generals and a camp to get them LaDG 'ready'.
Cheers
Mark
We have played several options over the years
1 All hits off at end of Turn ( As rules)
2 Hits stay on ( Optional rule)
3 You can never remove the final hit point. so regardless of number of hits that move it will always have one hit point on it.
All work ok and just change the game slightly.
As has been said in the normal game each stand is a platoon, so may be one platoon / squad is knocked out in some way or damaged, the other parts of the platoon are working fine
I prefer to look at my units as sections rather than platoons, Orcs but, whichever way I look at it, I'm still not happy about the hit reset. If a section/platoon has received five hits (one away from doom) it sounds a lot more than a part of it is a bit shaken up.
If not a straight KO, then a gradual decline in performance would seem to be a better way of handling things (I know Iron Cross uses that sort of method - and it works very well).
The problem you've got with cancelling or accumulating hits is it's another way of dividing the player base which, if nothing else, would make organising larger events (such as including BKC in Britcon) that much more difficult to achieve.
Now, not everyone's going to be interested in competition games but it might be nice to have an option for those that are.
Chris
It depends I suppose. My models don't travel and I have no interest in playing against opponents I don't know. I haven't been a member of a club for 30 years and never liked competition wargames. I'm lucky enough to have my own games room where I play against a handful of invited like-minded friends who prefer to wargame in a relaxed manner. When at my house, using my models, it is a case of my ball and my game. So, not everybody is the same.
Standardised rules for each period are a pipe-dream, in my opinion. A 'nightmare' in my opinion. In the first place writing rules has become an kind of 'industry' such that you could probably play with a different set every day of the week for an entire year, well a couple of months anyway. You will also never get every gamer to accept every set of rules out there because everybody has their own favourites, as well as those they detest. In addition there are those who like computer moderation and those who still worship the old gods and prefer dice.
There is also no association to police wargaming, thankfully, so the adoption of standard rules just isn't going to happen. Standard rules haven't existed since 1913 when HG Wells wrote Little Wars, and I can't see a change any time soon.
As far as BKCIV is concerned, I haven't used it though but, for what it is worth, I do use BKCII from time to time to play SCW scenarios. My games are all on a 1:1 figure ratio, which I know is not what the rules intended, and we found that removing hits made it almost impossible to inflict casualties so it didn't work very well in 1:1 games. So in our 'house' version they stay on and it worked much better.
Quote from: SK-BLitz on 22 September 2022, 04:50:40 PMI prefer to look at my units as sections rather than platoons, Orcs but, whichever way I look at it, I'm still not happy about the hit reset. If a section/platoon has received five hits (one away from doom) it sounds a lot more than a part of it is a bit shaken up.
If not a straight KO, then a gradual decline in performance would seem to be a better way of handling things (I know Iron Cross uses that sort of method - and it works very well).
The problem you've got with cancelling or accumulating hits is it's another way of dividing the player base which, if nothing else, would make organising larger events (such as including BKC in Britcon) that much more difficult to achieve.
Now, not everyone's going to be interested in competition games but it might be nice to have an option for those that are.
Chris
BKC (which ever version you use, I still use BKC2) is really designed as a battalion/brigade level game, with each base being a platoon.
You seem to be trying to use it as a Platoon/company level game. If that's what you like the rules are possibly not for you.
We use BKC for large scale games at 10mm and then use Chain of Command for platoon/ company level games at 20mm.
We have played Chain of Command with 10mm Figures, and with a little adaptation (hit dice on the bases etc) it works very well. Perhaps this would suit the level of game you want better.
Another alternative is to leave the hits on and when a unit is at half hit points then halve its fire dice. This would give you the degradation of the unit.
I have never been a competition player, but at events the organizers normally either play the rules as standard or advise whet optional rules are being used for that competition, so I don't see it dividing the player base, unless the players are fanatical about either "hits stay on" or "hits come off".
We have had similar discussions at club about HMGs effect on early war tanks and suppression (optional rule in BKC1) , and we have the simple rule that the game organizer states at the beginning of the game what optional rules are being used and we stick with that, as John says "thier ball, thier rules"
I suggest you play a few games and see how hey go. Then adapt the bit you don't like, if that still does not give you a game that you feel the gives a playable game with a reasonable result.
If not, its perhaps not a rule set for you.
For most of my wargaming life the only reason a ruleset didn't get house rules developed, by whatever group I was involved with at the time, was because it wasn't worth playing even heavily amended.
But ... house rules were for friendly games with people you knew. Competition games and games with strangers were Rules As Written unless all involved preferred the same house rules.
Among close friends it was very much,"You play in the man's game, you play by the man's rules."
I completely agree with all previous posters who state that rules mechanisms, like so much else in life, are very much about personal preference.
That said I (personally...) think the very clean and quite abstract mechanisms of BKC/CWC/FWC are exceptionally well thought out, and that includes the "removing hits" rule. Some of my reasons:
No need to track "damage" on each individual element from turn to turn, it is either effective, suppressed, or dead - which reduces clutter (on & off table).
It "abstracts away" a lot of information that isn't relevant to the battlegroup commander. Remember the old days when some rules would track whether an AFV was open or closed, what direction the turret was pointing, possibly what gear the driver had just selected – all for about 50 vehicles...
It avoids the requirement to model "every fold in the ground" i.e. tabletop terrain can be reasonably simplified.
It rewards concentration of combat power in time & space (I must have read that in a US publication...)
The "hits/saves" dice rolling keeps both sides involved in the "game" part.
I think the terminology of "hits" is a little unhelpful – in my visualisation nothing is (necessarily) hit or damaged, no pieces are being knocked off vehicles etc. Within each base "engaged" by an enemy, some vehicles move slightly off-track to take up temporary (notional) cover, the platoon commander gets shaken up and issues a few confusing orders that takes a while to sort out, maybe a couple of crews lose a bit of morale due to nearby impacts, etc etc etc. This briefly makes the platoon more vulnerable to being hit again from another direction - but if you give them a minute or two they can sort it all out & continue. Similarly, when a unit is "KO'ed" that doesn't necessarily mean everything is blown up or burning – maybe the only "gung-ho" crew just had their beloved driver slightly injured and are no longer interested in the bigger picture until he is evacuated – and the rest of the platoon are happy to assist if it means no more shooting today...
Just my 2 cents of course – but I couldn't resist as I find this type of discussion about rules mechanisms to be an extremely interesting facet of the hobby (and it's been going on for at least 30 years or so!)
Cheers,
Pete
Well said Pete
If Ithoriel hasn't said this already, BKC is a top down set of rules. The overall result and feel for a game feel right. Sometimes if you drill too much into what happened to a specific model turn by turn it can feel a bit odd, but pull back out to the overall battlegroup and the flow feels right
But I get that this isn't for everyone. And to be honest it's not always for me.
We found the hits staying on stopped the, in our view, unrealistic cases of infantry advancing across the open in the face of the enemy and rarely being KO'd, despite all the 'guns' focussing on one stand, then another. Also infantry dug-in or in entrenchments were nigh on impossible to KO, even with the Russian God of War bombardments.
So in the end for us, and it is of course only our view, the hits staying on felt more realistic and gave us a better game.
Really enjoy keeping the hits on. It adds that tension through the game as the hits accumulate.
Sadly, the little band of us who, before the pandemic, met at my place of a Sunday afternoon for games that included BKC has whittled away to only me, with the rest scattered to parts distant or, in one case, to the Great Beyond.
We played partial removal of hits. Green and Fanatics removed none, Veterans 2, everyone else 1. The final hit could never be removed so once damaged, a unit was never fully recovered.
Worked for us. We tracked the hits with tiny dice placed on the base so no chance they were rolled by mistake!
The up side of playing solo is my opponent is always happy to play any house rule I choose :)