Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Hi Mark

Just wanted to check that we have interpreted rules for scheduled air assaults correctly

Scheduled air assault (transports)
4 Soviet Hip in simultaneous air assault

Cost 1 asset/helicopter even if they arrive together
Plot LP for each helicopter and GT (similar to air strike)(15cm apart due to length of rotor blades)

On GT helicopters arrive on target with no deviation
Each helicopter can fire at each enemy unit within 10cm and in LOS of its LP (P62 Step 4)
(no concentration as they will be spaced 15cm apart). 
Hip is AP 2/50 but will be at less than half range, so 3 attack dice against every non armoured target within 10cm

AA fire from enemy AA/CO/HQ within range and in LOS, SAMs in LOS/LOF and unsuppressed ground units within 10cm of an LP
Enemy must spread its AA fire as evenly as possible across all 4 helicopters (similar to firing at multiple aircraft undertaking an air attack)
Hit on 5+ no armour = no saves, then for each hit throw 5+ to suppress

If KO then helicopter and passengers are removed/destroyed

If suppressed, a helicopter can choose to abort/leave the table with all passengers on board.
Alternatively, landing goes ahead, passengers disembark suppressed and helicopter remains on the ground till end of turn

If landing is successful, place passengers within 10cm of LP (mark suppressed if applicable)

Unsuppressed empty helicopters leave the table

Disembarked troops that are not suppressed may now be given orders on -1CV

If there was insufficient room to deploy all passengers, helicopters can stay on the table till next turn to offload remaining passengers before leaving the table.  Alternatively, they can leave the table immediately with remaining passengers still on board.

Scheduled air assault (attack helicopters)
2 x Hind-E attack helicopters

Cost 1 asset/helicopter even if they arrive together
Plot SP for each helicopter and GT (similar to air strike)
Use separate ground attack template for each helicopter as they will be at least 15cm apart due to rotor length

On GT place ground attack template on target with no deviation
Place helicopter within LOS of its SP
Helicopter must be in range of each target if to attack all targets in fire zone, or in range of a specific target if concentrating fire on a single target

Calculate enemy AA/SAM fire (no pre-measuring)
Enemy must spread its AA fire as evenly as possible across both helicopters (similar to firing at multiple aircraft undertaking an air attack)
Hit on 5+ then throw armour saves
For each unsaved hit throw 5+ to abort

If KO then helicopter is removed/destroyed
If aborted helicopter leaves table

Otherwise attack units in firezone but-1D6 attacks for each unsaved AA hit
All targets in firezone are attacked with main attack (5/50) (or 6 dice if at half range)
ATGW can also be fired once against a single target in the firezone, with 7 attack dice (min range 20cm)

As far as I can see, ordered air assaults work the same but they deviate:

• if comd unit on the ground: based on distance from comd unit to LP/SP or
• if comd unit is on board helicopter: based on multiples of 50cm from baseline to LP/SP

Please let me know if we have anything incorrect

Chris

Hi Chris - comments in-line in-bold below

QuoteHi Mark

Just wanted to check that we have interpreted rules for scheduled air assaults correctly

Scheduled air assault (transports)
4 Soviet Hip in simultaneous air assault

Cost 1 asset/helicopter even if they arrive together
> correct
Plot LP for each helicopter and GT (similar to air strike)(15cm apart due to length of rotor blades)

> no - select a single air assault point - place template - assault points must be within template. 15cm rotor blade length up to you - there is no restriction in the rules - as the reality is that 'flight' will accommodate each 'copter'

On GT helicopters arrive on target with no deviation

> correct - and are not subject to any air superiority AA fire

Each helicopter can fire at each enemy unit within 10cm and in LOS of its LP (P62 Step 4) - > yes, correct
(no concentration as they will be spaced 15cm apart > not sure where the 15cm stuff is coming from Chris? But you cannot do a concentration in a helicopter assault anyway).
 
Hip is AP 2/50 but will be at less than half range, (> Correct) so 3 attack dice against every non armoured target within 10cm > from each helicopter. NB: you can also attack armoured targets, but they will only count as suppressed if a hit is received - but that might be handy.

AA fire from enemy AA/CO/HQ within range and in LOS, SAMs in LOS/LOF and unsuppressed ground units within 10cm of an LP - > correct
Enemy must spread its AA fire as evenly as possible across all 4 helicopters (similar to firing at multiple aircraft undertaking an air attack) > correct
Hit on 5+ no armour = no saves, then for each hit throw 5+ to suppress > you got it

If KO then helicopter and passengers are removed/destroyed - > yes

If suppressed, a helicopter can choose to abort/leave the table with all passengers on board.
Alternatively, landing goes ahead, passengers disembark suppressed and helicopter remains on the ground till end of turn
> correct
If landing is successful, place passengers within 10cm of LP (mark suppressed if applicable)
> yup
Unsuppressed empty helicopters leave the table > immediately with  no further enemy AA fire

Disembarked troops that are not suppressed may now be given orders on -1CV
> correct - it might be helpful to have an HQ as one of the passenger units - or the Command distance modifier might be a real issue (see replacing Commanders if the HQ is KO'd)

If there was insufficient room to deploy all passengers, helicopters can stay on the table till next turn to offload remaining passengers before leaving the table.  > Correct - they are in the air whilst doing this. Alternatively, they can leave the table immediately with remaining passengers still on board.

Scheduled air assault (attack helicopters)
2 x Hind-E attack helicopters

Cost 1 asset/helicopter even if they arrive together
Plot SP for each helicopter and GT (similar to air strike) > correct
Use separate ground attack template for each helicopter as they will be at least 15cm apart due to rotor length (yes - but you'd do it regardless of the 15cm rule - but both could be attacking the same target

On GT place ground attack template on target with no deviation (> & no air superiority AA attacks)
Place helicopter within LOS of its SP (> no measuring)
Helicopter must be in range of each target if to attack all targets in fire zone, or in range of a specific target if concentrating fire on a single target > correct

Calculate enemy AA/SAM fire (no pre-measuring)
Enemy must spread its AA fire as evenly as possible across both helicopters (similar to firing at multiple aircraft undertaking an air attack)
Hit on 5+ then throw armour saves
For each unsaved hit throw 5+ to abort
> correct

If KO then helicopter is removed/destroyed
If aborted helicopter leaves table
> correct

Otherwise attack units in firezone but-1D6 attacks for each unsaved AA hit
All targets in firezone are attacked with main attack (5/50) (or 6 dice if at half range)
ATGW can also be fired once against a single target in the firezone, with 7 attack dice (min range 20cm)
> all above correct

As far as I can see, ordered air assaults work the same but they deviate: (> for helicopter assaults yes - but aircraft will fall subject to any initial Air Superiority AA)

• if comd unit on the ground: based on distance from comd unit to LP/SP or
• if comd unit is on board helicopter: based on multiples of 50cm from baseline to LP/SP

> All correct.


Please let me know if we have anything incorrect - >pretty much all correct Chris. looking forward to hearing how you get on with it all

Chris

With the attack helicopters you can then chose to leave them on-table after the assault or withdraw them (with no AA fire against them whilst withdrawing_. If left on table they are subject to enemy AA fire or ATGW fire but can be Commanded to go into on-table flight mode.

Hi Mark

QuotePlot LP for each helicopter and GT (similar to air strike)(15cm apart due to length of rotor blades)
> no - select a single air assault point - place template - assault points must be within template. 15cm rotor blade length up to you - there is no restriction in the rules - as the reality is that 'flight' will accommodate each 'copter'
That is a big rotor 'zone' Chris - what scale are you playing at?

I understand what you said above but I was thinking of aesthetics as we will be using heli models on the table and they do have 15cm diameter rotors. The 16 passengers will easily fit inside a 20cm diameter template so we may have to land helis around the LP to achieve 'within 10cm' by all 4 heli

Hip is AP 2/50 but will be at less than half range, (> Correct) so 3 attack dice against every non armoured target within 10cm
> from each helicopter. NB: you can also attack armoured targets, but they will only count as suppressed if a hit is received - but that might be handy.

Yep forgot about that one  :)

you cannot do a concentration in a helicopter assault

> poor choice of wording on my part Chris ... as in fact it happens automatically, if there are multiple helicopters and the same target in the zone for more than one helicopter (as pointed out below)

Step 4 on p62 states 'The attacker can choose to concentrate all fire on a single enemy unit if desired' This is concentration I was referring to.  Plainly if using a single LP then all 4 heli can fire at one target.

However step 4 also says 'Each transport heli can open fire at each enemy unit within 10cm and in LOS of LP. So for example 4 enemy infantry within 10cm of LP and 4 Hips in the assault, each enemy unit can be hit with 4 x 3 dice so not sure how concentration above is applied when all enemy units can be attached by all helis....

Use separate ground attack template for each helicopter as they will be at least 15cm apart due to rotor length (yes - but you'd do it regardless of the 15cm rule - but both could be attacking the same target

Yep but equally 2 separate attacks could target 2 different units if so wish

looking forward to hearing how you get on with it all

You will be able to see it yourself on 25th Sep  ;)

With the attack helicopters you can then chose to leave them on-table after the assault or withdraw them (with no AA fire against them whilst withdrawing_. If left on table they are subject to enemy AA fire or ATGW fire but can be Commanded to go into on-table flight mode.

Noted

Rgds

Chris

Hi Chris - see my comments in your post above - but not in bold.
Cheers
Mark
PS: looking forward to the 21st

Hi Mark

Scale is 1/144. Rotor length on scale model Hip is just under 15cm diameter.

Am discussing options with Russian CO.

Sun 25th  ;) see you then

Regards

Chris

Quote from: Superscribe on 13 September 2022, 11:21:16 PMSun 25th  ;) see you then

Regards

Chris

Looking forward to it

Hi Mark

I am sure this has been asked before, but can you please clarify if Attack Helicopters in General Attack Mode use the Air:GA template or not. 

On p61 it says they can use their main attack and ATGW attack in the same strike.  It also says to dice for deviation from the SP when the support is requested, which suggests use of a template in General Attack Mode.  Hind F for example with attack of 6/50 and ATGW 7/185 could therefore attack each target in 50cm range (minimum range 20cm for ATGW) under the template, with 13 dice.

However 4th row in table on p50 for Helicopter ATGW armed helicopters, says they may target different units with each weapon as long as they are within 5cm, which suggests they attack up to 2 units, one with each weapon, therefore no template. In this example the same Hind would attack 1 target with 6 dice and the other with 7. Quite a difference to using a template.

What is correct method please?

Rgds

Chris

Hi Chris - it depends how you use the Attack Helicopters.

If it is as part of an air-strike, you use the AIR:GA template - but that cannot apply for the ATGW weapons - it is only for the main weapons. The ATGW can only target/hit a single target within the template.

If the Attack helicopters are operating on-table - they cannot use the template - they can however target a single enemy unit with their primary weapon and their ATGW (or split their fire).

As an aside - I had lunch the other day with a longstanding work contact, who was a UK army helicopter pilot and fought back in the Gulf. His flying career spanned the transfer from the old Gazelles (with the wire guided ATGWs) and through to Apaches. His view (very firmly) was that there was absolutely no advantage to the helicopter (when using wire-guided weapons) if using 'pop-up' attacks. In fact his view was it was an exceptionally dangerous tactic as the chopper was extremely visible when the missiles fired - as the rocket fumes on ignition where very significant, and it took a lot of concentration from the pilot and gunner to keep the missile on-target. His view was that MCLOS type missiles shouldn't offer any benefits to avoid enemy AA fire for the helicopter whilst it was in 'pop-up' mode.
The Apaches were/are a totally different kettle of fish. The 'on-top' radar allowed the pilot to keep the body of the chopper below the tree line. The radar extended and gave the gunner & missile system a quick 360 degree map of all targets (in a matter of seconds), the computer prioritised all the targets and built a fire plan. The pilot then 'popped-up' the main body of the chopper, the gunner fired the missile, which was/is a Fire & Forget missile, so the chopper immediately dropped back down out of sight.
The missile computer then tracked the target unit options - and if these target priorities disappeared (they might be destroyed by other friendly units, moved out of sight etc) or became more viable/visible - the missile altered its flight path, and monitored its own propellant and would hit any target before it ran out of fuel (clever stuff). But by then the helicopter was long gone and out of sight.

Interesting stuff.
Mark