Pendraken Miniatures Forum

Wider Wargaming => Genre/Period Discussion => 20th Century => Topic started by: Sunray on 23 July 2022, 12:43:49 AM

Title: Flag bearer in Spanish Civil war era query
Post by: Sunray on 23 July 2022, 12:43:49 AM
The SCW featured standard bearers. Three queries:

1. Was their primary role to facilitate recognition from the air- as well as the other more symbolic aspects of a standard? 

2. Were they present in any other inter-war conflict?

3. In 10mm games, are they based with the officer in the "command group"?
Title: Re: Flag bearer in Spanish Civil war era query
Post by: John Cook on 23 July 2022, 01:33:18 AM
Flags were most common during the early months, particularly with the militias on the Republican side, before the formation of the Popular Army.

Their principal function was to indicate political affiliation. 

As far as I know they performed no air-recognition function, indeed, I have not encountered any examples formal or informal air/ground liaison, no GLOs or anything like them, or use of recognition panels or smoke, that kind of thing, which is not to say that it never happened just that I've never seen it described. 

Coordination of air support, and artillery for that matter, seems to have been poor at best and frequently non-existent, which is probably a reflection of the primitive communications available as much as anything else.   

I can't help with other inter-wars.

Flag bearers in my SCW units, if they have any at all, are on the battalion (or equivalent) command stand simply because that seems to be the logical place for them.
Title: Re: Flag bearer in Spanish Civil war era query
Post by: Sunray on 26 July 2022, 09:26:24 PM
Thanks for this. Not my period, so the "use" of flags on a 20th Century battlefield, suprised me.
Title: Re: Flag bearer in Spanish Civil war era query
Post by: paulr on 27 July 2022, 09:03:35 AM
2nd Battalion, East Yorkshire Regiment carried ashore company banners on 6 June 1944

(https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/resources/images/9944031/?type=responsive-gallery-fullscreen)

(https://www.yorkpress.co.uk/resources/images/9944030/?type=responsive-gallery-fullscreen)

Title: Re: Flag bearer in Spanish Civil war era query
Post by: Raider4 on 27 July 2022, 09:05:30 AM
QuoteThanks for this. Not my period, so the "use" of flags on a 20th Century battlefield, suprised me.
Didn't the Soviets have flag/banner wavers during WW2, or have I fallen for propaganda photos and staged newsreels?
Title: Re: Flag bearer in Spanish Civil war era query
Post by: Ithoriel on 27 July 2022, 09:41:57 AM
I think it's more propaganda and Hollywood than reality Raider.

Not that that would necessarily stop me issuing my WW2 Russians with banners :)
Title: Re: Flag bearer in Spanish Civil war era query
Post by: John Cook on 27 July 2022, 09:54:06 AM
QuoteDidn't the Soviets have flag/banner wavers during WW2, or have I fallen for propaganda photos and staged newsreels?

Now you come to mention it, there are photos of Soviet soldiers posing with banners during the border battles of Lake Khasan and Khalkhin Gol, with the Japanese in 1938-1939.  Quite what their purpose was isn't clear.  The Japanese also seemed to use them all through WW2 as well.
Title: Re: Flag bearer in Spanish Civil war era query
Post by: Ithoriel on 27 July 2022, 10:28:23 AM
I understand the Japanese carried flags early on, Khalkin Gol and Wake for example. I believe to give Japanese commanders better sight of where their units were and some idea of what they were doing. But I thought that they were rapidly phased out as the war progressed as being visible to your own commanders means being visible to the enemy too?

Title: Re: Flag bearer in Spanish Civil war era query
Post by: Raider4 on 27 July 2022, 12:25:17 PM
QuoteNot that that would necessarily stop me issuing my WW2 Russians with banners :)
And Pendraken handily make standard bearers!
SFV21:
(https://39.cdn.ekm.net/ekmps/shops/89204c/images/-n-SVF21-n-Standard-bearer-in-pilotka-cap-4183-p.jpg)
SVF23:
(https://39.cdn.ekm.net/ekmps/shops/89204c/images/-n-SVF23-n-Standard-bearer-in-greatcoat-4185-p.jpg)

And the Japanese JP8:
(https://39.cdn.ekm.net/ekmps/shops/89204c/images/-n-JP8-n-Ensign-charging-4084-p.jpg)
Title: Re: Flag bearer in Spanish Civil war era query
Post by: fsn on 27 July 2022, 12:36:10 PM
Quote from: Raider4 on 27 July 2022, 12:25:17 PMAnd Pendraken handily make standard bearers!

Flag wavers?!  So my Soviet pike block is unrealistic?!
Title: Re: Flag bearer in Spanish Civil war era query
Post by: Ithoriel on 27 July 2022, 02:53:58 PM
Don't tell them your name, Comrade Pike! :)
Title: Re: Flag bearer in Spanish Civil war era query
Post by: pierre the shy on 27 July 2022, 06:35:58 PM
QuoteDon't tell them your name, Comrade Pike! :)

Your name may already be on the list!  ;)

I used some Franco Prussian War standard bearers in my 1914 Germans a few years ago, largely for ascetic purposes: (https://farm2.staticflickr.com/1548/26022842153_1e65935e62_z.jpg)

from this thread: https://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,12440.90.html