Which pendraken figures should I use for the grenadier and voltigeur companies of a standard French 1809 line infantry battalion? Did the grenadiers have bearskin shakos or regular shakos? Did the voltigeurs have long plumes or short ones like the fusiliers?
In 1809 very many grenadiers were wearing the bearskin, almost as many the shako.
Grenadier Bearskin:
1, 3, 6, 9, 11, 20, 26, 29, 35, 39, 40, 42, 44, 45, 47, 50, 51, 52, 54, 56, 57, 58, 59, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 70, 72, 76, 81, 82, 84, 86, 88, 92, 93, 94, 96, 100, 101, 103, 105, 106, 108, 112
Grenadier Shako:
2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 27, 28, 30, 32, 33, 34, 36, 27, 43, 46, 48, 53, 55, 60, 67, 69, 75, 79, 85, 95, 102, 111
That's a snapshot by regiment and we don't really know how long it applies, or even if it applies to the newly formed/forming battalions. I tend to keep to bearskin for most with some in shako but I don't mix and match within regiments.
Line voltigeur typically wore long plumes but on campaign who can say.
More importantly, both grenadier and voltigeur wore epaulettes, these are only modelled on the designated line/elite figures. So if you did want voltigeur in pom-pom you'd need to snip the long plume not use fusiliers.
Use NPF01 and NPF02 for fusiliers. NPF08 and NPF09 for voltigeur or grenadier in shako, NPF10 for grenadier in bearskin.
All Légère wore epaulettes, so there the options are a bit broader.
Use NPF06 and NPF07 for all chassuer and voltigeur and any carabinier in shako. Use NPF18 for any carabinier in bearskin. There is no voltigeur in busby option available I'm afraid but that (I think) is a slightly later affectation.
Hope that helps
Thanks Zippee, very helpful, exactly what I wanted to know!
QuoteIn 1809 very many grenadiers were wearing the bearskin, almost as many the shako.
Grenadier Bearskin:
1, 3, 6, 9, 11, 20, 26, 29, 35, 39, 40, 42, 44, 45, 47, 50, 51, 52, 54, 56, 57, 58, 59, 61, 62, 63, 64, 65, 66, 70, 72, 76, 81, 82, 84, 86, 88, 92, 93, 94, 96, 100, 101, 103, 105, 106, 108, 112
Grenadier Shako:
2, 4, 5, 7, 8, 10, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 27, 28, 30, 32, 33, 34, 36, 27, 43, 46, 48, 53, 55, 60, 67, 69, 75, 79, 85, 95, 102, 111
That's a snapshot by regiment and we don't really know how long it applies, or even if it applies to the newly formed/forming battalions. I tend to keep to bearskin for most with some in shako but I don't mix and match within regiments.
Line voltigeur typically wore long plumes but on campaign who can say.
More importantly, both grenadier and voltigeur wore epaulettes, these are only modelled on the designated line/elite figures. So if you did want voltigeur in pom-pom you'd need to snip the long plume not use fusiliers.
Use NPF01 and NPF02 for fusiliers. NPF08 and NPF09 for voltigeur or grenadier in shako, NPF10 for grenadier in bearskin.
All Légère wore epaulettes, so there the options are a bit broader.
Use NPF06 and NPF07 for all chassuer and voltigeur and any carabinier in shako. Use NPF18 for any carabinier in bearskin. There is no voltigeur in busby option available I'm afraid but that (I think) is a slightly later affectation.
Hope that helps
Hi.
Just came across this post and your superb collection via the link to flickr.
Can I just ask what base sizes you have used for the French and Austrian 1809 Napoleonics please?
I'm just painting my first units and still undecided on basing.
Thanks
Keith
Thanks Keith.
Basing:
Close order infantry - 8 figs on 40mm x 30mm. 4 bases per battalion
Open order infantry - 6 figs on 40mm x 30mm. 4 bases per battalion
Cavalry - 4 figs on 40mm x 30mm. 4 bases per regiment.
Artillery varies by size of company
8 gun company - 4 guns on 80mm x 40mm
6 gun company - 3 guns on 60mm x 40mm
4 gun company - 2 guns on 40mm x x40mm
2 gun section - 1 gun on a 20mm x 40mm (also for battalion guns)
Train company - 1 limber and team on 20mm x 80mm
Commanders and skirmish markers and suchlike on various circular bases running from 40mm to 20mm in diameter.
That said if I was starting over I'd probably go for 30mm x 30mm square bases for infantry and cavalry. 40mm leaves the lines just a little too loose and not been square just gets irritating in play. The "open order" bases were a requirement of previous rules to distinguish deployments, I no longer do them (wish I'd made that decision before duplicating all the Bavarian light battalions!).
Probably the most important factor in basing is what your likely opponents are doing/have done. Otherwise do what looks right to you.
QuoteThanks Keith.
Basing:
Close order infantry - 8 figs on 40mm x 30mm. 4 bases per battalion
Open order infantry - 6 figs on 40mm x 30mm. 4 bases per battalion
Cavalry - 4 figs on 40mm x 30mm. 4 bases per regiment.
Artillery varies by size of company
8 gun company - 4 guns on 80mm x 40mm
6 gun company - 3 guns on 60mm x 40mm
4 gun company - 2 guns on 40mm x x40mm
2 gun section - 1 gun on a 20mm x 40mm (also for battalion guns)
Train company - 1 limber and team on 20mm x 80mm
Commanders and skirmish markers and suchlike on various circular bases running from 40mm to 20mm in diameter.
That said if I was starting over I'd probably go for 30mm x 30mm square bases for infantry and cavalry. 40mm leaves the lines just a little too loose and not been square just gets irritating in play. The "open order" bases were a requirement of previous rules to distinguish deployments, I no longer do them (wish I'd made that decision before duplicating all the Bavarian light battalions!).
Probably the most important factor in basing is what your likely opponents are doing/have done. Otherwise do what looks right to you.
That's really helpful.
Thanks very much for the detailed reply.
Cheers
Keith
QuoteThat's really helpful.
Thanks very much for the detailed reply.
Cheers
Keith
Sorry, forgot to ask. Are you using the same base sizes for Austrian and Hungarian units? I'm conscious of the fact that some of the Austrian units were quite large.
As I'm going to be playing solo I will be using Black Powder 2nd edition for simplicity with the Clash of Eagles supplementary rules to add flavour.
Thanks again.
Keith
I'm using 25mm x 20mm bases, with 6 infantry figures or 2 cav figures or 1 gun per base. I mount the guns with the width longer than the depth, so the barrels protrude forward of the base, and squeeze 3 crew on as its too small for the 4th crew figure. I have 4 bases per infantry battalion (24 figures representing about 720 men, so 1:30 ratio). I have the option of changing to a 1:20 ratio at some point, so 36 figures per battalion. My standard cav regiment is 16 figures, so 8 bases. I haven't started on my Austrians yet but I will stick with the same basing. I intend to do large infantry battalions of 36 figures, and large cav regiments of 24 figures.
Quote from: PedroSwift on 15 June 2023, 01:26:07 PMI'm using 25mm x 20mm bases, with 6 infantry figures or 2 cav figures or 1 gun per base. I mount the guns with the width longer than the depth, so the barrels protrude forward of the base, and squeeze 3 crew on as its too small for the 4th crew figure. I have 4 bases per infantry battalion (24 figures representing about 720 men, so 1:30 ratio). I have the option of changing to a 1:20 ratio at some point, so 36 figures per battalion. My standard cav regiment is 16 figures, so 8 bases. I haven't started on my Austrians yet but I will stick with the same basing. I intend to do large infantry battalions of 36 figures, and large cav regiments of 24 figures.
Thanks for the info, that's helpful👍
QuoteThanks Keith.
Basing:
Close order infantry - 8 figs on 40mm x 30mm. 4 bases per battalion
Open order infantry - 6 figs on 40mm x 30mm. 4 bases per battalion
Cavalry - 4 figs on 40mm x 30mm. 4 bases per regiment.
Artillery varies by size of company
8 gun company - 4 guns on 80mm x 40mm
6 gun company - 3 guns on 60mm x 40mm
4 gun company - 2 guns on 40mm x x40mm
2 gun section - 1 gun on a 20mm x 40mm (also for battalion guns)
Train company - 1 limber and team on 20mm x 80mm
Commanders and skirmish markers and suchlike on various circular bases running from 40mm to 20mm in diameter.
That said if I was starting over I'd probably go for 30mm x 30mm square bases for infantry and cavalry. 40mm leaves the lines just a little too loose and not been square just gets irritating in play. The "open order" bases were a requirement of previous rules to distinguish deployments, I no longer do them (wish I'd made that decision before duplicating all the Bavarian light battalions!).
Probably the most important factor in basing is what your likely opponents are doing/have done. Otherwise do what looks right to you.
QuoteThanks Keith.
Basing:
Close order infantry - 8 figs on 40mm x 30mm. 4 bases per battalion
Open order infantry - 6 figs on 40mm x 30mm. 4 bases per battalion
Cavalry - 4 figs on 40mm x 30mm. 4 bases per regiment.
Artillery varies by size of company
8 gun company - 4 guns on 80mm x 40mm
6 gun company - 3 guns on 60mm x 40mm
4 gun company - 2 guns on 40mm x x40mm
2 gun section - 1 gun on a 20mm x 40mm (also for battalion guns)
Train company - 1 limber and team on 20mm x 80mm
Commanders and skirmish markers and suchlike on various circular bases running from 40mm to 20mm in diameter.
That said if I was starting over I'd probably go for 30mm x 30mm square bases for infantry and cavalry. 40mm leaves the lines just a little too loose and not been square just gets irritating in play. The "open order" bases were a requirement of previous rules to distinguish deployments, I no longer do them (wish I'd made that decision before duplicating all the Bavarian light battalions!).
Probably the most important factor in basing is what your likely opponents are doing/have done. Otherwise do what looks right to you.
Sorry, forgot to ask. Are you using the same base sizes for Austrian and Hungarian units? I'm conscious of the fact that some of the Austrian units were quite large.
As I'm going to be playing solo I will be using Black Powder 2nd edition for simplicity with the Clash of Eagles supplementary rules to add flavour.
Thanks again.
Keith
QuoteSorry, forgot to ask. Are you using the same base sizes for Austrian and Hungarian units? I'm conscious of the fact that some of the Austrian units were quite large.
As I'm going to be playing solo I will be using Black Powder 2nd edition for simplicity with the Clash of Eagles supplementary rules to add flavour.
Thanks again.
Keith
Hi yes, same size bases for all.
For notably large units its possible to use 6 bases instead of 4 (I have sufficient units with the same facing colours to be able to mix and match for that). But in reality unless there is a very significant footprint change for the larger unit, that extra size tends to be reflected by having some extra cohesion points (or whatever your rules of choice use to wear down units).
Time was I tried to match base sizes to theoretical company sizes but game design has generally moved on from that kind of bottom-heavy detail / sumulationist approach. Also companies are an administrative unit, not the tactical sub unit, so its a bit flawed anyway. French for instance have 6 companies (post 1808) but still deploy in 8 platoons (peletons). Austrians have 6 companies (divisions) but deploy by grand-division (2 companies) with divisions divided into platoons (zugs). The most common structure (Prussia, Russia, most German states, etc) is 4 companies / 8 platoons.
These days its 4 bases per battalion - and that's purely to allow the three major formations to be displayed on the table (column, line, square), its not an attempt to replicate the sub-structure of the battalion. Although as the most common structure is 4/8 sub-units it works OK at that. And an assumption that nearly all battalions in the field averaged somewhere around 500-600 men.
If you look at a French battalion (32 figs) for instance, it has 4 bases of 8 figs but only 4 grenadier, and 4 voltigeur figs, leaving 6 groups of 4 fusiliers (24 figs). Its a compromise but one base of grenadiers, 1 of voltiguers and 2 of fusiliers would be too few fusiliers for my liking, and it does kind of represent the 8 peleton tactical sub-structure. But its aesthetic only, the battalion fights as a unit in the game and that is that.
I have a lot of 6mm based for LFS that all distinguish between company sizes and battalion structures (and cavalry regimental, squadron and company structure for that matter). Its all very OCD and quite fiddly and at the end of the day with two or three corps per side on the table makes no difference to the gameplay (other than making movement really tedious). I really ought to just rebase them all but frankly, life is too short :D
I really need to update the Austrian and French Flckr galleries as those pictures show several 6-base units and single 40mm square gun bases. The Bavarian gallery is more reflective of how everything is based now (as I listed above).
QuoteHi yes, same size bases for all.
For notably large units its possible to use 6 bases instead of 4 (I have sufficient units with the same facing colours to be able to mix and match for that). But in reality unless there is a very significant footprint change for the larger unit, that extra size tends to be reflected by having some extra cohesion points (or whatever your rules of choice use to wear down units).
Time was I tried to match base sizes to theoretical company sizes but game design has generally moved on from that kind of bottom-heavy detail / sumulationist approach. Also companies are an administrative unit, not the tactical sub unit, so its a bit flawed anyway. French for instance have 6 companies (post 1808) but still deploy in 8 platoons (peletons). Austrians have 6 companies (divisions) but deploy by grand-division (2 companies) with divisions divided into platoons (zugs). The most common structure (Prussia, Russia, most German states, etc) is 4 companies / 8 platoons.
These days its 4 bases per battalion - and that's purely to allow the three major formations to be displayed on the table (column, line, square), its not an attempt to replicate the sub-structure of the battalion. Although as the most common structure is 4/8 sub-units it works OK at that. And an assumption that nearly all battalions in the field averaged somewhere around 500-600 men.
If you look at a French battalion (32 figs) for instance, it has 4 bases of 8 figs but only 4 grenadier, and 4 voltigeur figs, leaving 6 groups of 4 fusiliers (24 figs). Its a compromise but one base of grenadiers, 1 of voltiguers and 2 of fusiliers would be too few fusiliers for my liking, and it does kind of represent the 8 peleton tactical sub-structure. But its aesthetic only, the battalion fights as a unit in the game and that is that.
I have a lot of 6mm based for LFS that all distinguish between company sizes and battalion structures (and cavalry regimental, squadron and company structure for that matter). Its all very OCD and quite fiddly and at the end of the day with two or three corps per side on the table makes no difference to the gameplay (other than making movement really tedious). I really ought to just rebase them all but frankly, life is too short :D
I really need to update the Austrian and French Flckr galleries as those pictures show several 6-base units and single 40mm square gun bases. The Bavarian gallery is more reflective of how everything is based now (as I listed above).
Hi
I really appreciate you taking the time to go into such detail which is really helpful.The info regarding the use of companies comes as a bit of an eye opener. I've been doing 28mm Napolenics for many years and slavishly following the six companies basing. Can't remember how I got into the habit though, possibly from the rules I have used over the years which often follow the six bases in diagrams. Maybe I should have done a bit more research back in my teens (over 50 yrs ago 🙄)
I'm using your photos as a point of reference and inspiration. I'll certainly take another look at the Bavarians.
Dead right about rebasing, which is why I want to be sure I get these right first time.
Thanks again.
Keith
No worries,
Yep, rules have for decades equated company with base and tactical sub unit. So Featherstone, Quarrie and WRG onward through Empire et al, that was the norm. Very understandable and very tempting - 36 fig battalions with 6 fig companies was kind of a standard basing style for decades. And nothing inherently wrong with it aesthetically.
It all really depends how your rules work. I don't play Blackpowder but from memory they are quite relaxed on basing protocols, so you can really base to what looks good to your eye. I'd just try and ensure that however I based for each nationality, a battalion had more or less the same frontage regardless of whether it was French, Austrian, Prussian, or Russian.
To be honest I think I went with 32 fig battalions as much because Pendraken packs are 30 figs big as any other reason but I could as easily gone with 36 or 40 and had a few more figs per base. However, as said above if starting over I'd just reduce the bases a bit and keep to 32 figs. Smaller bases = bigger tables ;D
QuoteNo worries,
Yep, rules have for decades equated company with base and tactical sub unit. So Featherstone, Quarrie and WRG onward through Empire et al, that was the norm. Very understandable and very tempting - 36 fig battalions with 6 fig companies was kind of a standard basing style for decades. And nothing inherently wrong with it aesthetically.
It all really depends how your rules work. I don't play Blackpowder but from memory they are quite relaxed on basing protocols, so you can really base to what looks good to your eye. I'd just try and ensure that however I based for each nationality, a battalion had more or less the same frontage regardless of whether it was French, Austrian, Prussian, or Russian.
To be honest I think I went with 32 fig battalions as much because Pendraken packs are 30 figs big as any other reason but I could as easily gone with 36 or 40 and had a few more figs per base. However, as said above if starting over I'd just reduce the bases a bit and keep to 32 figs. Smaller bases = bigger tables ;D
How well I remember the rule sets you mention. I still regret having sold my copy of Empire which I remember seemed quite revolutionary at the time. Could never get to grips with Quarrie and Featherstone was where it all started for me. Happy memories.
QuoteHow well I remember the rule sets you mention. I still regret having sold my copy of Empire which I remember seemed quite revolutionary at the time. Could never get to grips with Quarrie and Featherstone was where it all started for me. Happy memories.
Just seen this. I concur that, first of all base your figures so they look right, it's your ball and your game after all. Second, and this is vitally important, make sure you get it right because rebasing is the way to madness. In the past I've modified rules to reflect my bases, rather than the other way round. I've stuck with the same rules now for several years and have no intention of ever changing them. For what it is worth these are the dimensions I use. I use actual orders of battle so units are not be all the same. I use a ratio of roughly 1:10 and I mount my infantry figures in two or three ranks as appropriate simply because I like the look. The depth is simply what is necessary to mount the number of figures - while it is possible to try and reflect scale frontages it is impossible to do the same with depths, unless you are into 6mm figures or smaller.
Artillery 6 horse team 17mm x 85mm deep
Artillery 4 horse team 17mm x 65mm deep
Artillery piece with crew 30mm x 30mm
Infantry 3 ranks 7mm frontage per figure (in the front rank) x 28mm deep
Infantry 2 ranks 7mm frontage per figure (in the front rank) x 20mm deep
Skirmishers 10mm frontage per file x 20mm
Cavalry 10mm frontage per figure x 22mm
With 10mm it is perfectly possible to have one stand representing a sub-unit, sometimes two with small battalions. The French compagnie was an administrative sub-unit and on a war footing they were equalised by taking men from other companies so that a battalion comprised a number of equal sized peletons. Prior to 1808 it comprised seven fusilier compagnies and one voltigeur compagnie, producing eight peletons. The grenadiers, originally a division (two compagnies) per regiment, were often used to form separate elite bataillons together with the grenadier divisions from other regiments. This changed in 1808 when the organisation became six compagnies, a grenadier compagnie, four fusilier compagnies and a voltigeur compagnie, all of which were equalised to make six similarly sized peletons in war. Peletons were equalized because having sub-units of an equal size was fundamental to executing the various conversions from one formation to another. The six companies of the Austrian battalion became six halb-divisionen each of two halb-kompanien. A halb-kompanien comprised two zuge. Two halb-divisionen formed a division, for three divisionen per bataillon. The skirmish element in the Austrian battalion was provided from the third rank.
Wargaming started for me with Featherstone's Wargames too, although I was already playing with toy soldiers using HG Well's Little Wars, which I stumbled on in the local library. Things were somehow simpler in those days.
QuoteJust seen this. I concur that, first of all base your figures so they look right, it's your ball and your game after all. Second, and this is vitally important, make sure you get it right because rebasing is the way to madness. In the past I've modified rules to reflect my bases, rather than the other way round. I've stuck with the same rules now for several years and have no intention of ever changing them. For what it is worth these are the dimensions I use. I use actual orders of battle so units are not be all the same. I use a ratio of roughly 1:10 and I mount my infantry figures in two or three ranks as appropriate simply because I like the look. The depth is simply what is necessary to mount the number of figures - while it is possible to try and reflect scale frontages it is impossible to do the same with depths, unless you are into 6mm figures or smaller.
Artillery 6 horse team 17mm x 85mm deep
Artillery 4 horse team 17mm x 65mm deep
Artillery piece with crew 30mm x 30mm
Infantry 3 ranks 7mm frontage per figure (in the front rank) x 28mm deep
Infantry 2 ranks 7mm frontage per figure (in the front rank) x 20mm deep
Skirmishers 10mm frontage per file x 20mm
Cavalry 10mm frontage per figure x 22mm
With 10mm it is perfectly possible to have one stand representing a sub-unit, sometimes two with small battalions. The French compagnie was an administrative sub-unit and on a war footing they were equalised by taking men from other companies so that a battalion comprised a number of equal sized peletons. Prior to 1808 it comprised seven fusilier compagnies and one voltigeur compagnie, producing eight peletons. The grenadiers, originally a division (two compagnies) per regiment, were often used to form separate elite bataillons together with the grenadier divisions from other regiments. This changed in 1808 when the organisation became six compagnies, a grenadier compagnie, four fusilier compagnies and a voltigeur compagnie, all of which were equalised to make six similarly sized peletons in war. Peletons were equalized because having sub-units of an equal size was fundamental to executing the various conversions from one formation to another. The six companies of the Austrian battalion became six halb-divisionen each of two halb-kompanien. A halb-kompanien comprised two zuge. Two halb-divisionen formed a division, for three divisionen per bataillon. The skirmish element in the Austrian battalion was provided from the third rank.
Wargaming started for me with Featherstone's Wargames too, although I was already playing with toy soldiers using HG Well's Little Wars, which I stumbled on in the local library. Things were somehow simpler in those days.
Hi John
Thank you very much for your sage advice which I will certainly bear in mind before settling on a basing system.
I'm very grateful to all of the members of the forum who have taken the trouble to provide such detailed information and advice.
Cheers
Keith
Agree with modify rules to basing
"A unit is 4 bases, each 30mm square."
Nope, it's 3 of 40x20