Still waiting for the book to arrive and I've decided to go 10mm for BKC. I've searched using multiple terms here (I also looked at the FB Group too but I'm not sure if that is still active, submitted a join request a few days ago but nothing yet) and I only really turned up one meaningful post on this. There used to be another Pendraken forum but I'm guessing that's gone now, IIRC there was masses of information there, I remember it from BKC I days before I took a 10 year plus break from gaming.
One the subject of 10mm figure basing, I understand that there's no fixed sizes in BKC but there are some suggested sizes and templates for HE and such like. While any basing would work I want to make sure I don't mess up the game by using base sizes that screw up template size design.
The suggested basing for BKC from what I can gather is around the 50 x 25 and 50 x 50 size mark. I also plan to use the figures for O-Group and, while the 50 x 25 for infantry would be usable, I'm not sure I like the look of 50 x 25 bases width wise. I was contemplating using 30 x 30 sizes for infantry simply so that infantry advancing behind tanks would look more like they are trying to conceal themselves LOS wise, rather than deliberately fanning out to be visible, especially given that 1 tank = 1 platoon of tanks and one infantry base the same. 30 x 30 though does seem a bit small so I came to the idea go 40 x 20 or 40 x 25. 30 x 30 is perhaps OK but doesn't look like a platoon fanning out to lay down fire. Can't have it both ways I suppose, other try to conceal when advancing or fan out to form a fire base. It may also be that, not having read the mechanics, I'm unduly concerned about the effect when being fired on, insomuch as it may not matter whether the base is 30 or 50mm wide at all.
At the end of the day any sizes will work within reason I guess, my main concern is that I don't mess up game design mechanics with regard to things being more or less visible that they were intended to be. Of course smaller bases can be spread out to avoid being caught too much under the existing template sizes but I just want to be certain I don't inadvertently break anything else by veering away from the suggested sizes at all.
I used 50x30mm bases for BKC infantry, and 30x50mm bases for Armour and other larger vehicles. I went slightly larger for infantry mainly to make my logistics of base supply easier! The infantry bases have 5-6 figures on them.
For my WWI forces I have gone with 30x30mm bases with 3 figures.
I'm using the 50x30mm bases for O Group - but they are probably a bit big so a platoon ends up with 3 bases in a T shape - rather than something a bit more organic if they were smaller. I think the 10mm figures in the O group book are on 30mm rounds.
I'm no longer a fan of 40x20mm probably as used this size too much for Warmaster and find it a bit awkward for getting figures on with a bit of terrain.
I don't think you will break anything in BKC by choosing any of the base sizes you suggest. There is nothing that says bases need to be close together. So any bunching is down to the player wanting to concentrate troops and they can do that with any size of base.
Having written all of the above, I don't really feel I have a recommendation of what base size to choose. I think my steer would be go for what looks right to you.
I use 30x30 for 6mm vehicles, mostly 30x20 for the infantry. I'd suggest 30x40 for 10mm vehicles and 40x20 for infantry.
QuoteI'm no longer a fan of 40x20mm probably as used this size too much for Warmaster and find it a bit awkward for getting figures on with a bit of terrain.
40x20mm is great for <20th century stuff, but not for more modern, 'looser' types of formations.
I've never played the game, but I am a fan of the basing used in Flames of War (https://www.flamesofwar.com/Default.aspx?tabid=110&art_id=5583&kb_cat_id=29).
The medium base is nominally a 50x32mm. For 10mm I've used 70% size, so 35x22mm.
I use 50 x 25 for infantry, 25 x 25 for HQ's and infantry support weapons, such as mg's and mortars. Larger anti-tank guns on 25 x 50. Some of the bigger on table artillery pieces and CO as 50 x 50. I leave my vehicles unbased. Hope this helps?
Consistency is probably more important than overall size when it comes to basing, though I have played perfectly satisfactory games of BKC against opponents with quite different basing for their forces.
I use 40x20mm for infantry and as close as I can get to 20x40 for artillery and vehicles. Bigger tanks may need a 25x50 base, my German 88mm is on a 40x40mm base. 6 infantry, a pair of MGs or Mortars, a single tank or gun per base. 6 figures per infantry base was an aide-mémoire that the bases had 6 hits, nothing more significant.
Based infantry and unbased vehicles look weird to me but each to their own.
Command stands are vignettes. The disk with a number is the basic command value.
My force has grown since the picture was taken but this gives an idea of how my options look.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2223/ficjS5.jpg)
I used 40x20 for my 10mm infantry (4-5 per base) as that's what I'd used for all of my Warmaster stuff but I think a deeper base would be much better. I did my 6mm CWC stuff on 35x25 and that looks much more realistic for the period.
QuoteConsistency is probably more important than overall size when it comes to basing, though I have played perfectly satisfactory games of BKC against opponents with quite different basing for their forces.
I use 40x20mm for infantry and as close as I can get to 20x40 for artillery and vehicles. Bigger tanks may need a 25x50 base, my German 88mm is on a 40x40mm base. 6 infantry, a pair of MGs or Mortars, a single tank or gun per base. 6 figures per infantry base was an aide-mémoire that the bases had 6 hits, nothing more significant.
Based infantry and unbased vehicles look weird to me but each to their own.
Command stands are vignettes. The disk with a number is the basic command value.
My force has grown since the picture was taken but this gives an idea of how my options look.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/img922/2223/ficjS5.jpg)
That's a lovely looking army.
QuoteAt the end of the day any sizes will work within reason I guess, my main concern is that I don't mess up game design mechanics with regard to things being more or less visible that they were intended to be. Of course smaller bases can be spread out to avoid being caught too much under the existing template sizes but I just want to be certain I don't inadvertently break anything else by veering away from the suggested sizes at all.
I think you've answered your own question here. I'm in the same boat as you, coming back to BKC after a long time away and I have agonised over this question. I did think about 30x30, but have gone 40x20 in the end, just from an aesthetic point of view. My mg's will be on 20x20, command stands on probably 30x30/40x40 and vehicles on what will ever fit.
My first project is SCW and I have some Polish and Germans for 1939 to rebase to this scheme too. Good luck with whatever you decide and enjoy your gaming.
I occasionally use an earlier version of BKC and my bases, intended for completely different rules, work perfectly OK with BKC. I can't comment on the latest version but I found BKC to be a dynamic and very adaptable set of rules that can be used with various sizes of bases, as demonstrated by this thread. Here, for what it is worth, are the dimensions for my SCW and early WW2 bases.
Infantry/cavalry 40mm x 25mm
MG, mortar, anti-tank gun 30mm x 25mm
One Light artillery piece up to 105mm 30mm x 35mm
One Medium/Heavy artillery piece over 105mm 40mm x 45mm
AFV and SSV 25mm x 40mm
Formation HQ 40mm x 50mm
Super helpful replies, thanks so much!
As I mentioned I need to base in a way that is acceptable for more than one rule set albeit the primary 'other' is O-Group. O-group is largely basing agnostic with, IIRC, just the one suggestion that assaulting infantry should be on a frontage of around 100mm. That's around 100mm though so I think 80-120 would also be fine. In some examples the Coy HQs are on FOW medium bases with the platoons on FOW small but I think that's just aesthetic choice and being able to differentiate between unit types rather than any rules impact.
One thing I'm considering doing is trying to to get some standardisation in at least one of the dimensions, I doubt it's essential but it might be pleasing on the eye rather than everything on different sizes. Second thing I'm thinking is that I'm not that keen on 50mm long bases for vehicles or guns unless the size of the piece demands it. Final consideration is do I base some units on round bases where that unit is maybe a HQ type AND it cannot fire and therefore needs no firing arcs.
Taking all that into account and noting the comments some have made about 20mm bases possibly not being deep enough (albeit I have hundreds of them) I think that one dimension I can standardise is 25mm for the width / depth of most units. Not being keen on the 50mm length of vehicle bases I will probably opt for 40mm for the other dimension. That would give something like:
Infantry: 40 x 25 mm
Guns and large AFVs: 25 x 40 mm (with an option of 50 x 30 if essential for very large vehicles)
HW Teams / FO / FAO etc.: 25 x 25 mm
Command Units: 40 x 40 mm
Army Command 50 x 50
I did ponder using 40 x 30 too, might be a bit too deep for infantry but might fit well for tanks etc. trouble is I don't want any more units than I need using a different base size and 40 x 30 (again I have loads) is only 5mm deeper than 40 x 25.
If they will fit I'm also pondering putting smaller vehicles, jeeps, SdKfz 222 and such like on 25 x 25 mm bases. Before deciding though I'll wait for the rules to arrive to see whether you target the base or the vehicle. If the base is targeted I'm conscious a smaller base gives some vehicles an advantage but if I'm providing both armies there's no issue anyway if both sides are exactly the same. I do think that a jeep would look a bit lost on a 25 x 50. I could double small vehicles up but that would look a bit odd to me too.
Only other issue than is whether I put anything on round bases. If I did I would have to refresh my memory for O-Group and read BKC to see what units it would apply to. Might be useful if it's the same units in both rule sets that can't be targeted / attacked or can't shoot (and thus don't need arcs) but if it's just FOs or whatever it perhaps just breaks up the symmetry of the rest of the army too much.
Finally, I also have a load of FOW MDF bases in various sizes which will now not get used so they will also be an option if I find that some of the non-FOW base sizes I'm pondering get a bit tight. I do quite like the rounded corners of FOW bases. For O-Group, where a base is a section, I pondered using 2 medium bases and one small (representing a platoon HQ) in a 2 forward one back formation. For BKC that won't work however given each base is a platoon. I really want to avoid the hassle of creating separate infantry basing needs for different games. At the end of the day, there's no need for the platoon Cdr to go on a small base, it was just my way of getting use out of the already based 15mm figures I have. If I went the FOW base route it would likely be small bases for the platoons with a medium for the group commanders.
While I like the rounded corners of FOW bases they are less easy to cut the magnetic sheet I use for magnetising the bases. This time though I'm thinking of going with 3mm x 2mm neodymium magnets (which I can buy cheaper than the magnetic sheet) and drilling a 3mm hole in each base in the centre. Buddy of mine did it for some other figures but stopped because every now and then he had a magnet pull out and pull the basing material with it. I get round that by cutting up small squares from plastic food containers and gluing that over the magnet hole before basing. That way the magnet would just detach, not damage the base. It's a bit of extra work but it's seconds really once you have tub full of plastic squares.
I'll think on it some more and try out a few units on the various base size before deciding. Currently I change my mind every hour. Just when I think I've got it finalised I get a "ah but what about....." moment :(
In both games you need to be able to tell command units apart from combat units. Square bases are typically used for this in BKC - but round would work too.
It does very much depend on which vehicles you are basing up as to the size of bases needed. And probably having a small size for carriers, tankettes and jeeps is sensible, as well as having a larger size for trucks and tanks.
Guns also vary in size a lot
I use 2 vehicles for HQ's and 3 for CO's with several dioramas for repair shops and Div HQ's in 6mm. Thats for CWC but a similar approach would work for BKC as well.
Quote from: fred. on 22 April 2022, 06:48:57 AMIn both games you need to be able to tell command units apart from combat units. Square bases are typically used for this in BKC - but round would work too.
It does very much depend on which vehicles you are basing up as to the size of bases needed. And probably having a small size for carriers, tankettes and jeeps is sensible, as well as having a larger size for trucks and tanks.
Guns also vary in size a lot
Yes I'm starting to think I might bin the idea of round bases. I could do it and I could 'validate' (for want of a better word) the decision to do it but it's throwing another base shape onto the table, possibly needlessly.
The command stands will definitely be easily identifiable. In O-Group the Battalion HQ doesn't actually need to be a stand (it's a function not a playable unit), it's essentially a place to keep count of Batt HQ orders and artillery. Most use a diorama for it though, I intend to do the same, around 50 x 50mm so it will fit for both games. I'll do a command vehicle or two and /or a ruined sandbagged building with map table etc etc. Company Commanders are playable and need to be identifiable, so the same unit can easily be use as unit group command in BKC (in Black Powder they would be Brigade Commanders, not sure of the term in BKC, Commanders?). For those I think likely 40 x 40 with maybe a vehicle of some sort. The exact square shape (vs rectangle) and large size will denote them as command stands.
FOs / HW teams etc I plan to use 25 x 25 bases or even 30 x 30 if I end up opting for infantry on 40 x 30. Guns and tanks will be on whatever size is needed to accommodate them, even a 40 x 40 or a 50 x 50 (if needed for an 88 or whatever), it won't take a rocket scientist to work out that it's not a command base. I did consider basing 2 HW teams on a standard infantry base (facing the long edge) but in O-Group they will work better based as individuals, it won't take too much to be able to tell an FO or sniper from an HMG or Mortar team.
It's coming together slowly, I just really wanted to give it some thought so I don't have a 'Doh!' moment as I'm basing the last unit. After they are all based if I think I may have done one or two things slightly differently, tough! Giving it plenty of thought now should mean there won't be that much of a problem. The comments here are helping immensely.
I use square stands for HQ's and the CO, but round ones for the FAO, FAC nad Infantry Recce. Easy to differentiate when on the table.
Quote from: Steve J on 22 April 2022, 09:27:19 AMI use square stands for HQ's and the CO, but round ones for the FAO, FAC nad Infantry Recce. Easy to differentiate when on the table.
Infantry Recce, now there's one I'd not considered. Do they have any shooting capability and if so are they 360º arc? Normally I'd look it up but the book is in shipping container somewhere at the moment.
Quote from: Sean Clark on 21 April 2022, 09:34:47 PMThat's a lovely looking army.
Thank you, kind sir. A poor thing but mine own :)
There's plenty better looking out there but I'm happy with my efforts. Which is the most important thing, IMHO.
Kind words from others are much appreciated, nonetheless!
Link to some older photos of my BKC stuff - this has largely worked as is for O Group
http://www.kerynne.com/games/BritishParas.html
But lots of other pages with other forces on
@Ithoriel: Really nice looking army and I like the standardisation of the basing as you said.
@fred.: That is an absolutely awesome site!! An absolute wealth of information on many different formations together with info on Orbats, markings, organisation, painting and basing. I have a load of books and sites marked but sometimes it's an effort to get them all out and sift for the information. Going through the site will be my job for today!! :)
It's funny, I'm pondering splitting my 10mm purchases between Victrix and Pendraken with the bulk going to Pendraken. I quite like the Victrix infantry packs given the sheer amount you get for the price, I do prefer the Pendraken figures though. The Victrix Army Bundles at first appealed less as I thought that for BKC there's just no way I'll need 6 Shermans and 6 Cromwells for the British, O-Group maybe as it's 1 tank = 1 section, not a platoon. The German Bundle is better as I will most definitely need 6+ half tracks and with the Pz IV being the backbone of most German panzer units, 6 of those won't go amiss.
My main concern on the over-supply armour is that I don't want to end up with boxes of stuff vehicles which will still take time to paint and base and yet might never see the table. I mostly prefer combined arms games so am unlikely to do any entire armour engagements like Bluecoat etc which would need a lot of vehicles. As such I'd got it into my head that I'll be looking at 2 - 4 max of any particular vehicle type. Maybe I'll take a look again at the Victrix bundles and ponder whether I will actually get table use out of the 6 Shermans / 6 Cromwells. That said, what I definitely don't want to do is talk myself into buying things I don't need simply because other people have and use them. I plan to play ONLY BKC and O-Group. 6 Shermans could be used in O-Group quite easily as a full company (each tank being a section but would need additional Fireflies), in BKC 3-4 would be a regiment. One possible use of a round base here being for the Commander of a tank regiment so it's not mistaken for a combat unit (though again the 40 x 40 or 50 x 50 square base might suffice.
I see the HW teams are mostly based on regular infantry stands with 2 weapons, I've pondered that but I think for O-Group they will be better on smaller stands, I can always place two together for BKC if I feel I'm giving them to much survivability (possible small size avoiding artillery templates etc.) given that they are a platoon in BKC vs a section / single weapon in O-Group.
The Pendraken orders are almost ready :)
Missed it from the above, I'm definitely not interested in replicating multiple regiments on a 1:4 ratio etc, I'm interested only in what I'm likely to use in 'normal' sized games of either O-Group or BKC. Not really been able to dig up many example BKC lists but, in O-Group for instance, most scenarios will feature 2-6 vehicles and 1-2 AT guns at most, often less so I'm still somewhat on edge about vehicles in multiples of 6. In O-Group those vehicles represent a section each in a battalion level game, in BKC they would scale up accordingly.
Glad you found my site useful - its been ages since I updated it - I pulled a lot of the info together to just have it in one place, rather than having to dig through a number of books.
We've played quite a few games of O Group recently - and most feature 0 to 2 tanks per side. At most we have got to about 6 tanks on 1 side - of mixed types. For AT guns it is similar 0-2 light AT guns per side. O Group is basically an infantry game - you need lots of stands of infantry.
For BKC I would say 6 tanks is the least we have ever fielded per side, and 12 may be more typical. And then there will be combined arms to accompany them, AT guns, artillery, soft skins, armoured cars etc. And infantry - probably a bit less infantry than for O Group - as I needed to add German infantry to my forces for O Group. And used both Battalions worth of BKC french for O group.
Most of my WWII forces are too big to use in a single game - probably my DAK force is the one that I would use as a good indicator of a BKC sized force http://www.kerynne.com/games/DAK.html and it looks pretty similar to what Ithoriel posted. It has a core of Pz IIs and IIIs and has a few later tanks to allow it to be used over a wider time period. It probably needs a few more light AT guns and a bit more infantry - but not loads (and I'm pretty sure I have those sitting waiting to be painted).
That's not too bad then, put my mind more at ease with "shock, 6 tanks!!" in the bundle packs from Victrix (further incentivised by them being 20% cheaper than pack prices).
I'm pretty familiar with O-Group, it was the game that made me decide finally that Battlegroup (AKA Battlegroup) wasn't for me. Good enough game but too many crunchy platoon level mechanics in it IMO for a company level game. Funnily enough, 10 years ago, I erred away from BKC I in favour of that lower level detail (even if a lot of it was FOW) whereas now, it's the other way round. BKC IV is the newcomer to me, I understand it's a lot 'better' than BKC I and if there is more likelihood of using a larger number of vehicles then those packs of 6 will likely get eaten up, Shermans and Cromwells in this case, particularly as you are likely to be taking one out as a command. If the tank commands don't have a combat role (e.g. firing etc) on the table top I may contemplate basing them on round bases after all, just so I don't get confused, a 40 x 40 with the tank angled differently, or maybe with a dispatch rider or whatever might serve just as well, and no round bases in a sea of squares LOL.
FWIW, in case anyone has similar questions and comes across the thread in the future. Basing I haven't decided on fully yet but I THINK I will go for:
Army Command / HQ: 50 x 50
Other Command Units: 40 x 40 mm
Infantry: 40 x 25 mm (4-6 figures / I might even vary it by having different figure counts for different infantry types, assault / engineers etc)
HW Teams / FO / FAO etc.: 25 x 25 mm
Tanks and large vehicles: 40 x 25 (with an option of 50 x 30 if essential for very large vehicles)
Small vehicles: 25 x 25
Guns up to 105mm: 40 x 25 mm
Guns over 105mm: 50 x 30 or whatever needed to fit
If I find that too many vehicles are tight on a 25mm base width I'll raise all the 25mm measurements to 30mm so HW teams would be on 30 x 30, infantry 40 x 30 and tanks 40 or 50 x 30.
Figures wise I plan to go pretty much exclusively with Pendraken. I MIGHT, once the book arrives, decide to go for a few vehicle packs from Victrix but I would need to be sure I DO need six of one type of tank. I know @fred mentioned he rarely fields less than 6 tanks, the question for me though will be is that 6 of the same type of tanks? If not, I'll be better buying in the multiples I need from Pendraken. I looked at the army bundles packs from Victrix but, in addition to the 6 packs of vehicles, the infantry army packs from Pendraken are IMO far better suited to BKC / O-Group I think. Better ratio of officers and NCOs, units that aren't needed are not included (e.g. 2" mortars), there isn't a massive excess of rifle armed figures, plus Pendraken include Assault Rifles (STG44) in the German packs. I also like the sculpts and detail more. I've always liked Pendraken too so good to support the company :)
Quote. . . I do quite like the rounded corners of FOW bases.
Not noticed it before really, but now you've mentioned it, yes, they do look good. As per Ithoriels photo above.
Hmm, something to think about there.