Pendraken Miniatures Forum

I do not need another project  X_X

Having said that I stumbled across the Yarkshire Gamer talking about using TooFatLardies If the Lord Spares Us rules for the Spanish Civil War

We already use ITLSU for WWI and a certain manufacturer has a substantial SCW range in 10mm :-\

Can anyone point me in the direction of the Yarkshire Gamer or his SCW variant of ITLSU

Here's the link to Yarkshire land 

https://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.com/search?q=Scw&max-results=20&by-date=true

I did a search on SCW and lots of good stuff, but not immediately seeing anything on ITLSU

Like you Paul I don't need another project - but ITLSU and SCW could work well together. 

Edit: Fred beat me to it!

The Yarkshire Gamer is here
https://yarkshiregamer.blogspot.com/search/label/Spanish%20Civil%20War?m=0

I had actually stumbled across him recently and have downloaded his podcast on ITLSU with Nick Skinner to listen to in the near future.

I didn't see any reference to his SCW rules though might be buried in one of those posts.

Some of these may be of use:
https://toofatlardies.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=29&t=10640&p=70121&hilit=Spanish+civil+war#p70121

Though perhaps he was referring to this? https://toofatlardies.co.uk/product/triumph-of-the-will/ though I'm unclear as to which of their family of systems it belongs to, think it's perhaps and older one that could possibly be used to adapt.

You might consider:
For Whom the Dice Rolls
https://www.wargamevault.com/product/347931/For-Whom-The-Dice-Rolls
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FOqSNdTyf0JNaQhmYgRJklHsREqmU1E2/view
Arriba Espana!
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Arriba-Espana-including-Portable-Spanish/dp/B098GX2GTW

The Yorkshire gamer has some great posts.

Thanks All

I had managed to find his blog and some of his YouTube videos

What I'm hoping to find is an email address so I can contact him directly (I'm not on instagram or facebook etc)

I do NOT need another set of rules, no matter how good they are, our groups is at rules maximum @-)  :-/  ~X( 

Here you go: yarkshiregamer@gmail.com

His name is Ken.

I'm not sure if he uses ITLSU for the Spanish Civil War, though. I think that it is just for his Iraq/Middle East games, but I could be wrong.

Thanks you very much Titivillus

I am pretty sure I saw mention of it in at least one post.
They use a Siesta card rather than the Tea Break card ;D

QuoteThanks you very much Titivillus

I am pretty sure I saw mention of it in at least one post.
They use a Siesta card rather than the Tea Break card ;D

Is it maybe "Up Your Cara Al Sol" a varient for I Ain't Been Shot Mum from the Summer 2004 special edition?

The Yarkshire Gamer was kind enough to respond promptly to my email :)

Unfortunately Titivillus was correct, they use a homebrew set that includes ITLSU like card activation :(

Back to the drawing board

No problem, Paul!

He might give you a copy of the rules, if you asked. Or you could try the I Ain't Been Shot Mum variant mentioned by mmcv. I think there is even a SCW variant for Chain of Command/Big Chain of Command, if you want smaller level games.

The Yarkshire Gamer suggested Triumph of the Will which was written by TFL at about the same time as ITLSU :)

I've had a quick read and they are very similar to ITLSU but annoyingly different as well for a group trying to remember different rule sets. The main difference is that the figure strength of the company represents the inherent energy of the Company rather than actual numbers of combatants  :-\ ~X(  @-) 

When I have some time I'll work through each of the mechanisms and see if I can use ITLSU to get a similar outcome with a tweak or two. Hopefully I can map figure numbers to ITLSU Spunk ratings :-\

I've been listening to the ITLSU episode and Nick was saying it was built off TotW. Though became it's own beast very quickly. Regardless I'm sure you can fudge some aspects in to bring the right flavour to the core rules to suit your group.

Started comparing mechanisms and mods look very doable :)  #:-S

I'll be sticking with ITLSU's focus on the numbers of combatants rather than the TOtW's inherent energy of the Company. ITLSU's Spunk ratings will cover most of TOtW's energy ideas

This will be an interesting side project to potter away at :-B

One thing that seems to be a feature of several SCW rules is to grade troops based on training, for example; Regular, Drilled, Militia.

The rules then go on to make Militia more vulnerable and Regulars less. I was wondering if the Libertad! supplement does something similar.

QuoteOne thing that seems to be a feature of several SCW rules is to grade troops based on training, for example; Regular, Drilled, Militia.

The rules then go on to make Militia more vulnerable and Regulars less. I was wondering if the Libertad! supplement does something similar.

It has "Green" and "Veteran" which probably equate somewhat to Militia and Drilled

Are Green more vulnerable to fire?

QuoteAre Green more vulnerable to fire?

Caveat: I have only read the rules not actually played them yet.


From what I understand green troops are less likely to be suppressed (due to lacking battle awareness) but when suppressed have a harder time shaking it off. I believe this means they are more vulnerable to fire as they spend more time in the open rather than going to ground like veteran troops which are suppressed sooner but more able to shake it off.

But hopefully someone more knowledgeable can confirm!

Thanks, it looks as though this is a common approach across multiple rule sets :)

Now, how to do do that appropriately in ITLSU :-\

My pottering about continues...

Can anyone point me at good online sources for brigade organisations for Jarama in February 1937

This looks to involve an interesting variety of forces and seems to be late enough that both sides have some experience but early enough to avoid masses on conscripts

After some initial prodding about I'm quite interested in the Nationalist IV Brigade and the Republican XII International Brigade

Republican XII International Brigade and Nationalist IV Brigade 

There is very little on-line concerning orders of battle, detailed ones anyway, that I can see.  There are books, mainly Spanish in origin that contain orders of battle but most seem to be out of print these days and used copies are becoming expensive.  Ones you should look for on Jarama are Rafael Lopez and Artemio Perez 'La Batalla del Jarama' and Carlos Engel 'Historia de las Brigadas Mixtas del Ejército Popular de la Republica'.  In English Ben Hughes 'They Shall not Pass – The British Battalion at Jarama' is a readable account of the British battalion at Jarama and also contains an order of battle.

Here are OBs for the formations you are interested in.

2a Agrupación – 18a Brigada Mixta
                           24a Brigada Mixta
                           XII Brigada Internacionale.  Commanded by Béla Frankl aka Máté Zalka aka General Pál
                           Lukács KIA Huesca 11 June 1937. 

                           Batallón Dombrowski (Polish-Balkan)
                           Batallón Garibaldi (Italian, Albanian, Spanish)
                           Batallón André Marty (Franco-Belgian)
                           Batallón Madrid (Spanish)
                           Batallón Prieto (Spanish)
                           one unidentified cavalry squadron.

II Agrupación – V Brigada
                         IV Brigada.  Commanded by Coronel don Carlos Asensio Cavanillas

                         7o Regimiento de Infantería comprising

                         I Tabor de Regulares de Tetuan
                         II Tabor de Regulares de Tetuan
                         II Batallón Expedicionario de Tenerife

                         8o Regimiento de Infantería comprising

                         VI Bandera de la Legión
                         VII Tabor de Regulares de Melilla
             
                        1o Regimiento de Caballería comprising

                         3o Escuadrón del Grupo de Regulares de Alhucemas No 5
                         3o Escuadrón Cazadores de Numancia No 6
                         4o Escuadrón Cazadores de Numancia No 6
                         Sección ametralladoras Cazadores de Numancia No 6
                         Sección ametralladoras Cazadores de Villarrobledo No 1

                         3a Batería del Grupo de Artilleriá de Acompañamiemto (65/17 Mod 13)
                         10a Batería del 13o Regimiento Ligero (Schneider de 75/28)
                         4a Batería del 15o Regimiento Ligero (Schneider de 75/28)
                         5a Batería del 14o Regimiento Ligero (Vickers 105/22)
                         Batería Ligera de la Academia de Artilleriá (Vickers 105/22)
                         1a Sección de la 1a Batería Antitanque (Pak 35/36)

                         3a Companía de Batallón de Carros de Combate (PzKpfw I Ausf A)

                         6a Companía de Zapadores de Valladolid

Many thanks John, it looks like my amateur research was surprisingly accurate :)

A few questions, if I may

1. What artillery & antitank support did XII Brigada Internacionale have
2. What armour support might they have been able to call on, even if that's a little tough on the Nationalist's Pz Is
3. Are the Republicans 3 companies plus an MG company per battalion, how many MGs
4. Are the Nationalist Batería 4 guns
5. Are the Nationalists 3 companies plus an MG company per battalion, how many MGs
6. How many MGs in Sección ametralladoras Cazadores

Also do the following figure ranges make sense for the units

International Brigades - Batallón Dombrowski, Batallón Garibaldi, Batallón André Marty
Regular Army—Summer - Batallón Madrid, Batallón Prieto (or would Militia and/or Republican Infantry be better)
Militia Cavalry - one unidentified cavalry squadron

Moroccan Regulars—Summer - I Tabor de Regulares de Tetuan, II Tabor de Regulares de Tetuan, VII Tabor de Regulares de Melilla
(Can I mix in some Moroccan Mehal-la-Jalifiana for variety)
Regular Army—Summer - II Batallón Expedicionario de Tenerife, VI Bandera de la Legión
Moroccan Cavalry - 3o Escuadrón del Grupo de Regulares de Alhucemas No 5
Regular Army—Cavalry - 3o Escuadrón Cazadores de Numancia No 6, 4o Escuadrón Cazadores de Numancia No 6
MG / LMG pack horse team (5) - Sección ametralladoras Cazadores de Numancia No 6, Sección ametralladoras Cazadores de Villarrobledo No 1

No problem. 

1.  XII Brigada, like all Popular Army brigades at Jarama, had no organic artillery or antitank support.  At Jarama the artillery was centralised at army level and comprised the following:

5 batteries of Schneider 75/28 Mod 06 guns (three pieces each).
3 batteries of 7.7cm FK16 guns (three pieces each).
1 battery of 10.5cm FH16 howitzers (three pieces).
1 battery of 10.5cm FH98/09 howitzers (three pieces).
2 batteries of Vickers 105mm Mod 22 howitzers (three pieces each).
16 batteries of Ordnance QF 4.5 inch howitzers (three pieces each).
4 batteries of Schneider 155C Mod17 howitzers (two pieces each).
1 battery of Krupp 155/26 gun (one piece)

2.  XII Brigada had no armour support as such.  The Tank Brigade was centralised at army level like the artillery.  It  comprised two battalions of approximately 30 T-26 each and was usually deployed piecemeal in company strength.  They were used in larger numbers a couple of times during the battle.  The first on 11 February when some 25 T-26 supported the Garibaldis and Dombrowskis.  They suffered badly from Nationalist field and anti-tank guns when they became isolated from their infantry support and promised artillery and air support failed to materialise.  The inability of badly trained Republican infantry to cooperate with armour, poor radio communications, the effectiveness of Nationalist artillery and anti-tank guns, and the nature of the ground, all meant that the performance of Republican tanks at Jarama was pretty dismal. 

3. Popular Army battalions comprised three rifle companies and one MG company of 8 MG, usually Soviet Maxim M10 though the British Battalion had German MG08 at Jarama.

4. National Army artillery batteries at Jarama, as far as I know, followed the pre-war organisation of four pieces to a battery.  The anti-tank sections had five Pak 35/36.

5. Yes, Nationalist battalions comprised 3 companies plus an MG company.  Legion MG companies had 8 Hotchkiss M14

6.  A pre-war cavalry regiment comprised four sabre squadrons (usually reduced to two) and an automatic weapons squadron (escuadrón de armas automáticas) comprising:

One MG section of eight Hotchkiss M14 MMG in two platoons
One LMG section of six Hotchkiss M22 LMG in two platoons.
One mortar platoon with two 50mm mortars.

However, National Army cavalry regiments at Jarama comprised elements from a variety of pre-war regiments and I'm not sure which MG sections are meant in the OBs.  I suspect that they are M14 HMG sections. 

Turning to figures, Jarama was fought in January and February 1937, so strictly speaking you want cold weather clothing, rather than shirt sleeve order, but I wouldn't get too dogmatic about that, unless you want to. 

The International Brigades.  These were equipped and uniformed like any other Popular Army unit and I'm not sure why the distinction has been made in the lists.  Spanish units often served in International Brigade formations alongside units raised from foreign volunteers.  For any and all Popular Army battalions, including the International Brigades battalions, use any figures from the International Brigade and Republican Infantry ranges. 

I have no idea of the identity of the unidentified cavalry squadron in XII Brigade; I'm not sure whether it was a militia unit or not.  There were elements of the cavalry regiment Jesus Hernandez (named after the PCE politician) at Jarama.  I mix figures from the Regular Army Cavalry and Militia Cavalry ranges for my Popular Army cavalry.

Moroccan Regulars.  The uniforms of the regulars and Mehal were pretty similar so no reason not to mix them if you want to. 

I have no comments to make about your remaining selections, they all seem OK to me.

Finally, you might want to download this if you haven't found it already.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/132067342/Uniformes-militares-de-la-Guerra-Civil-Espanola-Jose-Maria-Bueno

Many thanks John, very useful

Quote...
6.  A pre-war cavalry regiment comprised four sabre squadrons (usually reduced to two) and an automatic weapons squadron (escuadrón de armas automáticas) comprising:

One MG section of eight Hotchkiss M14 MMG in two platoons
One LMG section of six Hotchkiss M22 LMG in two platoons.
One mortar platoon with two 50mm mortars.
...

Were LMGs used in dedicated units as lighter versions of the MG platoons/sections or were they dispersed amongst the rifle platoons/sections to provide a more general boost to fire power?

With a bit more reading and having located some useful maps I've decided that the Nationalist III Brigada is a more historic opponent for XII Brigada Internacionale.

Hi Paul, the elements of LMG and MG sections in the cavalry were, as far as I can tell, usually deployed to support the sabre squadrons as necessary.  I am not even sure that the LMG section survived into the war and the same goes for the mortar platoon.  They were certainly there on the peacetime establishment and I've chosen to include them in my National Army cavalry regiment.  The elements of the MG company in the infantry battalions, on both sides, was usually split up and used to support the rifle companies, rather than kept as a single entity.  Having said that, the British Battalion of the IB at Jarama kept its MG company together as a single battery of eight MGs.

III Brigada was part of I Agrupación

III Brigada commanded by Coronel don Fernado Barrón Ortiz
   
5^o Regimiento de Infantería
   I Bandera de la Legión
   I Batallón Cazadores de Cueta
   
   6^o Regimiento de Infantería
   I Tabor de Tiradores de Ifni
   I Tabor de Regulares de Melilla
         
2^o Regimiento de Caballería
   1^o Escuadrón Cazadores de Farnesio N^o1
   4^o Escuadrón Cazadores de Farnesio N^o1
   Sección ametralladoras Cazadores de Farnesio N^o1
   3^o Escuadrón Cazadores de Villarrobledo N^o1
   3^o Escuadrón del Grupo de Regulares de Melilla N^o2 
   Sección ametralladoras del Grupo de Regulares de Melilla N^o2 

3^o Regimiento de Caballería   
   3^o Escuadrón Cazadores de Calatrava N^o2             
   6^o Escuadrón Cazadores de Calatrava N^o2
   6^o Cazadores Cazadores de Calatrava N^o2
   Sección ametralladoras Cazadores de Calatrava N^o2
   2^o Escuadrón del Grupo de Regulares de Alhucemas N^o5 

Artilleriá
   1^a Batería del Grupo de Artilleriá de Acompañamiemto (65/17 Mod 13)
   9^a Batería del 13o Regimiento Ligero (Schneider de 75/28)
   7^a Batería del 14o Regimiento Ligero (Schneider de 75/28)
   Batería Arjona (Schneider de 75/28)
   6^a Batería del 12o Regimiento Ligero (Vickers 105/22)
   4^a Batería del 14o Regimiento Ligero (Vickers 105/22)
   2^a Sección de la 1a Batería Antitanque (Five Pak 35/36)
   
   1^a Companía de Batallón de Carros de Combate (Fifteen PzKpfw I Ausf A)

   Companía de Zapadores de Marruecos
 

Organisation of the Spanish Armed Forces 1936 - 44 by Leo Niehorster

http://niehorster.org/080_spain/__spain.html (http://niehorster.org/080_spain/__spain.html)

Might give you a bit of assistance and some further sources (in Spanish) if you haven't seen his site yet.

Quote from: pierre the shy on 02 April 2022, 03:11:51 AMOrganisation of the Spanish Armed Forces 1936 - 44 by Leo Niehorster

Thanks for that.  Yes, the site generally is very useful for WW2 but, unfortunately, not so much for the SCW, which is OK for the pre-war and post-war Spanish army but not for the Civil War itself.  The Peninsular Army ceased to exist more or less, part going to the rebels and part remaining loyal, and the Army of Africa was completely reorganised after it had been transported to mainland Spain.