Hi All,
We are really enjoying working thru all the scenarios,but have a couple of questions.
In Scenario 5 & 6, what is meant by "occupy" ?
Page 57 just talks about what's needed for capturing a specific objective, rather than what's meant by "occupy"
Scenario 7 , the defender tries to "exit 50% of their units" , am I right in assuming this is all units ? So soft skinned ,FAO ,Commands etc ?
Thanks
Any ideas anyone ? :)
Hi there
Scenario 5 & 6:
'Occupy' means that you must have at least 1 unit (that qualifies for Breakpoint purposes, and is not a Recce, Command or Sniper unit) wholly on the Objective that is not Suppressed (& obviously is not KO'd).
*NB: if you are using the Rear Line Special Characteristic designation - no Rear Line Designated troops can count as being an 'Occupying' unit.
But there must be no Enemy units (even if they are Suppressed) on that same Objective to count it as Occupied.
Scenario 7:
This means all units - with the exception of any Command Units, Recce units (except Recce Support units which do count) and Sniper units, that do not count. So Soft-Skins etc do count.
This is potentially up for abuse as you can buy a lot of trucks (cheaply) which can exit the table leaving all their infantry passengers behind to perish !!! So you will need to watch that one :D
Hope that helps?
Cheers
Mark
Thanks,
So to get a minor objective in ,say scenario 6, the attacker needs one unit in the centre third and no defender units there ? That seems..unlikely ,the area is 6' wide
These are scenarios where you occupy a sector rather than occupy an objective. Do the same occupy rules apply ?
Hi Amra
This question may have been asked previously (recently) on another thread elsewhere on the forum?
I corrected my comment there, by stating that you need at least 3 infantry and a command unit (CO or HQ) in the objective area and no enemy units (of a similar type) that are unsuppressed.
Yes, the area is 6 feet wide, but you have only 8 game turns to win the game - and depending upon the terrain, this is actually quite hard. Especially as the attacker moves 1st - so in effect the odds are actually in the defenders favour, as usually (in an attack-defend scenario) the attacker needs 3 x the troops of the defender (which is the case in Scenario 6). The defender has room to deploy forward - at the half-way line - so in effect the attacker is under fire almost immediately they deploy on-table.
This is a longstanding scenario and seems to work (from my own playing of it, and that of others).
Worth giving it a play-test and see how you get on.
I have a question about the requirement that, to count as occupying an objective, "...there must be no Enemy units (even if they are Suppressed) on that same Objective to count it as Occupied."
I don't see this listed in my rulebooks (e.g. p57 of BKCIV).
Is this somewhere in the book(s) that I missed (that is usually the explanation!) or is it errata? Or just generally agreed as "common-sense"?
Cheers!
Pete
For clarity Suppressed enemy units don't count as contesting an Objective, in the same way that they don't count for the friendly side to claim the Objective.
It may not state that specifically in the rules - but we can add that to the Errata.
As you say it is to a certain extent common sense, but I'm happy to make a ruling to make that clearer.
The intention is to make the Scenarios 'winnable' for both players.
Thanks
Mark
Thanks for the clarification Mark.
FWIW I would appreciate seeing this in the "official" errata (just my engineer's OCD to have everything written down, fair and square, with no contradictions :) )
Cheers!
Pete
We'll see what we can sort out Pete ... I think there are probably a few of these types of clarification that have come out since the Post-launch errata was produced.
It is interesting that this question appears to have not been asked previously, as looking back right the way to BKCI there appears to have been no clear definition on what 'occupied' or 'contested' really means. We can correct that in CWCII for starters.
Maybe very few players actually play scenario games. Now that would be an interesting poll to run :-\
Cheers
Mark
We love the scenarios and are working thru them all, expect more questions! :)
OK,let's see if I understand :)
So in scenario 5, the attackers minor objective is to occupy the third of the table nearest the defender.
To do so he must have 3 infantry and one Command in that third when his opponent has no unsurpressed units in his own deployment area
Scenario 6 is similar
If that's right , I still think that's almost impossible
So ,there's no difference in requirements between occupying an objective ( as in scenario 4) and occupying a third of the table ?(scenarios 5 & 6)
As I understand the original intention of the Scenarios - yes.
If you are prepared to do a few play-tests on that basis and publish the results, that would be very useful.
We have played the Scenarios a lot previously and never had any issues.
We tend to find that it is not unusual for the Attacker to be broken by the Defender, with the defender winning their games more often that way. The Attackers often wins by either breaking the Defender or driving them out of the Occupied area.
Contested results for both parties are uncommon, due to the limited game moves - although most of our Scenario games (from memory) rarely reach the higher move thresholds.
It does also depend greatly upon the terrain. If you have a lot of terrain - especially BUAs or woods - you will more likely end up with a contested scenario. Terrain placement is always a tricky part of any game - unless you are working to 'real-world' maps or as part of an ongoing campaign.
Thanks I'll let you know how we go
On breaking the opponents army,ie he fails his test after reaching break point , the game ends but it doesn't appear to give you any victory points?
Victory points seem to only come from objectives and enemy losses , not from him breaking Have I got that right ?
No - if either player's force breaks (due to a command moral roll or is totally destroyed) then the scenario is deemed to be over and it is a major victory to the remaining force.
I suppose you could play it that the remaining player has to still occupy the terrain or board objective - and there is always the possibility that if they fail their Command rolls they might not get the troops into position, or that they might not have the right troops left to achieve the required result. But it's a pretty dull game for the other player ;)
Perfect ,that's how we play it
Is that in the rules any where ? I couldnt see it in the victory conditions....
No - I think it has always just been 'assumed' to be the case.
We will formalise it in CWCII and add to the Errata update on BKCIV
Thanks
Great ,thanks
Again ,let me say we are greatly enjoying playing thru each scenario and will no doubt move on to the campaign system for linked battles soon
About breaking point.
What happen if I reach the number of casualties necessary to roll for breaking point in the first turn (bad rolls in the mobile deployment and a lot of good hit rolls of my enemy).
I pass the breaking roll in the second turn and recive a lot of troops from my reserve. Am I in a breaking point for the rest of battle and I will have to roll every turn? Or do we have to recalculate the breaking point?
Quote from: Big Insect on 30 March 2022, 01:43:11 PMWe'll see what we can sort out Pete ... I think there are probably a few of these types of clarification that have come out since the Post-launch errata was produced.
It is interesting that this question appears to have not been asked previously, as looking back right the way to BKCI there appears to have been no clear definition on what 'occupied' or 'contested' really means. We can correct that in CWCII for starters.
Maybe very few players actually play scenario games. Now that would be an interesting poll to run :-\
Cheers
Mark
Just catching up and went checking on the basis I'm sure that's in the book, and it is. For BKC4 it's Pg57, Objectives, 2nd paragraph. This covers Occupying a terrain feature and gives you the number of units, not suppressed etc. BKC2 (same section, p37-38 I think) has the same description, however the Scenarios in BKC2 have the additional bit that says treat the entire area as a terrain feature.
There's nothing I can see or remember about contesting this other than keep them suppressed and/or dead.
Quote from: Jordi on 31 May 2024, 01:53:15 PMAbout breaking point.
What happen if I reach the number of casualties necessary to roll for breaking point in the first turn (bad rolls in the mobile deployment and a lot of good hit rolls of my enemy).
I pass the breaking roll in the second turn and recive a lot of troops from my reserve. Am I in a breaking point for the rest of battle and I will have to roll every turn? Or do we have to recalculate the breaking point?
Yes, you recalculate your army break point as and when units either arrive on-table or are forced off it or are KO'd.
It is an attempt to try and replicate 'real life' (well sort of) :D
Cheers
Mark
Quote from: Genom on 31 May 2024, 11:59:43 PMJust catching up and went checking on the basis I'm sure that's in the book, and it is. For BKC4 it's Pg57, Objectives, 2nd paragraph. This covers Occupying a terrain feature and gives you the number of units, not suppressed etc. BKC2 (same section, p37-38 I think) has the same description, however the Scenarios in BKC2 have the additional bit that says treat the entire area as a terrain feature.
There's nothing I can see or remember about contesting this other than keep them suppressed and/or dead.
Apologies - I am not sure I understand your question?
Can you expand on it a bit?
Thanks
Mark
Quote from: Big Insect on 01 June 2024, 10:09:36 AMYes, you recalculate your army break point as and when units either arrive on-table or are forced off it or are KO'd.
It is an attempt to try and replicate 'real life' (well sort of) :D
Cheers
Mark
Thanks and good jon.
Quote from: Big Insect on 01 June 2024, 10:12:06 AMApologies - I am not sure I understand your question?
Can you expand on it a bit?
Thanks
Mark
Sorry Mark, no question you'd mentioned that there was no clear definition of Occupied, so just pointing out that there is. It is in an awkward place, as the previous page also has a bit about objectives, but it has persisted through editions.
Quote from: Genom on 01 June 2024, 05:16:58 PMSorry Mark, no question you'd mentioned that there was no clear definition of Occupied, so just pointing out that there is. It is in an awkward place, as the previous page also has a bit about objectives, but it has persisted through editions.
Good spot - thank - I'll look at that for both CWCII errata and FWCII.
Cheers
Mark