One of the reasons I exposed my self the other day was to use you lot as a source of peer pressure. My painting has been stagnating and I needed some impetus to make regular progress. Since Saturday, I have started to paint command bases for my 1809 Bavarians.
Progress has been made!
Rear rank primed and highlighted
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51868105012_6145ffcd2d_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2n2pAyC)1809 Bavarians (https://flic.kr/p/2n2pAyC) by Stu Gibson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/194939020@N05/), on Flickr
Front Rank figures primed and highlighted
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51867955797_d399dd57ae_w.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2n2oQcX)Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2n2oQcX) by Stu Gibson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/194939020@N05/), on Flickr
Im still figuring out Flickr so if anyone spots an error, please let me know.
Stu
An interesting approach for holding your figures while painting :-\
I've heard of both methods before but I don't think I've seen both approaches used on the same unit
Do you try and paint the figures of both ranks to the same level of detail or do you compromise somewhat on the rear rank?
Definitely looking forward to seeing these progress
That's similar to my method Paul, rear rank on bases, front rank on coffee stirrers.
Depends on resources to hand I guess.
Anyway, looking good sir. 8)
Paul,
Early days and methods may change but the focus is getting figures painted and based. I find lolly sticks a hindrance to completion, especially for cavalry. I get so far then loose interest, patience and never finish. The 9 bases of rear rank troops are a reasonable chunk of work with a clearly defined goal. The front rank figs will be painted by regiments. 2 bn each, making facing colours the final colour for both front and rear rank figures.
I am thinking that when I expand the battalions to 5 to 6 bases each I may paint the front ranks on the bases adding the rear ranks from lolly sticks.
Stu
The statements contained herein may contain certain forward-looking statements relating to the Group that are based on the beliefs of the Group's management as well as assumptions made by and information currently available to the Group's management. These forward-looking statements are, by their nature, subject to significant risks and uncertainties... :D
Quote from: Lord Speedy of Leighton on 08 February 2022, 07:18:23 AMDepends on resources to hand I guess.
All compliments gratefully accepted :)
I had the corks available and they are really intended for 28mm figs. While I dislike lolly sticks I also don't have any to hand and I was 3d printing the holders for the corks in anticipation of painting more Perry Prussian line infantry in the near future.
More progress
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51870342373_e60682810e_w.jpg)[/url]Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2n2B4DP) by Stu Gibson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/194939020@N05/), on Flickr[/img]
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51870575729_b5b6a6dcf4_w.jpg)[/url]Andrea blue (https://flic.kr/p/2n2Cg2c) by Stu Gibson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/194939020@N05/), on Flickr[/img]
I've found the problem with the 1809 French is knowing when to stop. And how to give "wargame table difference".
French
Lights
Guard
Württemberg
Bavaria
Polish...
That national diversity is, for me, one of the major attractions of the campaign. That and the fact it is perhaps the second best documented including several modern narratives.
I agree with your 'wargame table difference' concern. I wonder though if that is due to the level of abstraction of most rules. With so many generic rule systems around are we too reliant on Chrome to differentiate our armies?
It is an issue I am seeking answers to. My quest has me looking at the minutae of unit organization seeking to understand how the differences in organization and training manifested itself on the battlefield.
Of course that requires that I look at the battlefield from a different perspective. So I am focused on those actions that took place every day. Smaller battles, often meeting engagements that escalated as commanders feed more and more troops into the battle. More terrain, complicated objectives.
So why do I need to collect Bavarians, French, Saxons, Austrians etc. when I need at most 8-10 battalions/squadrons a side... Well, because I can. :D though my Norman's and Arabs may well feel out of place
If you need some encouragement, this is what Bavaria 1809 looks like once complete (well all but 7th Light)
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50494047666_34bdb2deb8_z.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jVZcbJ)
00 Bavarian Army Corps (https://flic.kr/p/2jVZcbJ) by Zippee Jerred (https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/), on Flickr
The units can be seen here https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/albums/72157714099300586
Excellent work sir! I see I have to find more Bavarians in the post! But as Paulr states must keep the task in maneagable chunks or they will never get done. Expect Photos about 2024 :)
Your post is timely as I was just about to ask the group if flag poles should be any specific colour. You have answered the question by making them flag colour!
Well done!
Stu
The Bavarians received painted weapons, packs, blanket rolls and cartridge boxes today. (Coat d'arms Wood Brown and Contrast Basilicanum Grey) And they were pleased. :) I expect tomorrow will bring Blackened helmets, clean boots and sword scabbards (Vallejo Black Primer, brass TBD). Perhaps I'll even wash their pink faces...
I'll take family photos tomorrow!
Stu
QuoteYour post is timely as I was just about to ask the group if flag poles should be any specific colour. You have answered the question by making them flag colour!
Sadly I have no information on staff colours, quite a lot on the flags themselves but nothing on staffs. To be fair since the majority of the staff is covered by the flag sleeve there's little actual staff to be seen, so I just paint mine dark brown. But that sleeve is a bit of a problem in itself as I've seen both white and blue shown for these for the 1786 issue (possibly blue for ordinarfahne, white for leibfahne), white for the 1803 and 1808 issues (only seen leibfahne, so ordinarfahne may have been blue) and blue for the 1813 issue. The 1808 issue flags I purchased (from Maverick, not Pendraken) came with blue for both leibfahne and ordinarfahne - I wasn't about to repaint any of them white!
cheers Zippee
https://www.flickr.com/photos/zippee/sets/
Hey Zippee,
Thanks for the info. I was thinking of perhaps using facing colours to assist with regiment recognition, It may not be historically accurate but I've counted the buttons so I've done my part :o Another option would be to use French fanion colours or Prussian seniority colours. Neither of which would be accurate, well unless it is the 5th battalion of an overlarge French Line regiment.
Speaking of Fanions, may I pick your mind wrt the use of same? I have seen them on offer at various flag providers but I have little in the way of info on how they were used. Other than one Osprey plate with a fanion in a musket barrel I am at a loss...
Stu
According to Keith Over's book, Bavarian flag staff were usually covered in blue corduroy. spear tops were gold.
Re fanions, do you mean the French ones?
Mark
Hmmm. According to Bunde, Gartner and Stein the staff was "lacquered brown".
... and Wise says "all flags issued before 1813 were carried on staves with a light blue covering: flags in 1813 had staves covered in black leather".
:D
My reading of Bavarian flags post 1809 is that nobody is sure who carried what.
I used both the Pendraken sets for my 1813 force.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51794953459_ef14202cc0_c.jpg)
Here's my Bavarian offering. Based on the 1813 Hanau force - with brown flag staffs.
10 Bttns, 4 rgt cav, 4 bttys, staff and markers* at the back.
My interpretation of Cornflower blue is rather a pale blue-grey rather than a pale blue. Vallejo Pastel Blue 70.901
*I use red, yellow and green figures to show morale states.
Cool looking army.
I suspect that transitioning from one set of standards to another was not a simple process and likely took some time, perhaps several years. So I suspect that your approach is valid. One issue is identifying regiments from the commander's helicopter. A single facing colour stripe in a 10mm collar is difficult to see. I was thinking of perhaps using flagpoles in facing colours but started painting brown as that seemed more likely.
My Bavarians, like Zippees' are based on the Bavarian OB at the start of the 1809 campaign. But it is early days and I am a LONG way away from completed units. I painted my flagpoles Coat D'armes 218 Wood Brown and my "cornflower" is Vallejo Andrea Blue (841) I had the Andrea Blue to hand and figured it was as good as any other pale blue colour. I do want to make sure that Bavarian Blue, French Blue and Prussian Blue are visibly different on the table.
I like your marker idea. Did you use regular rank and file figures?
Also, did you create any skirmisher bases?
Stu
Quote from: Stewart.gibson on 10 February 2022, 08:10:43 PMI painted my flagpoles Coat D'armes 218 Wood Brown and my "cornflower" is Vallejo Andrea Blue (841) I had the Andrea Blue to hand and figured it was as good as any other pale blue colour. I do want to make sure that Bavarian Blue, French Blue and Prussian Blue are visibly different on the table.
Of course the extent examples of Bavarian uniform from this period aren't cornflower blue at all - rather more a dark blue, but not as dark as the French. But certainly not the pale sky cornflower we see so often, no matter how cool that looks
One option for identifying units can be to use colour codes on the vertival back of the bases, this can be fairly discreate
I use labels that carry the key stats for the units as well as identifying them. But that is because our group plays a lot of different rule sets and not everyone can identify units based on their uniform
Quote from: Zippee on 10 February 2022, 08:29:29 PMOf course the extent examples of Bavarian uniform from this period aren't cornflower blue at all - rather more a dark blue, but not as dark as the French. But certainly not the pale sky cornflower we see so often, no matter how cool that looks
I found a can of worms in the pantry and decided they needed opening. Can we trust Flag colours? The few photos I have found of extant Bavarian colours tend towards the lighter blue. Are flag colours in any way related to uniform colours? Popularly produced war-games flags are quite varied.
Are the two colours related?
Im as interested as the next guy in uniform accuracy. I also lean towards the need to use brighter colours on smaller figures but where does one draw the line.
If I was to list my priorities I come up with
1. That lighter blue is Bavarian, the mid Blue is French, Wurtemberg and the dark, almost black are Prussian so I might tell them apart on the table. Of course did the Prussians actually wear "Prussian Blue" pigmented uniforms? The French used "indigo" pigments iirc.
2. Historical accuracy
3. How can we know 200 years later what is historically accurate?
4. Where did "cornflower blue" come from.
How many war-gamers have had the debate? I suggest pints at 6 feet are the only way that this will be resolved! :D
PAINT BRUSHES DOWN! Back to the time machine design!
I'll approach this from a chemistry point of view.
French blue is indigo so a natural dye. This is a much darker colour than you might think with surviving examples a very dark blue after 200 years. Prussian blue was probably the first known synthetic dye and again is a very dark blue (and was known for 100 years before the Napoleonic wars). I'll go out on a limb (and behind a large rock) and suggest that the 2 colours are close enough to be the same on the table. I've used Tamiya dark sea grey for both as its very dark and has a blue tinge.. For the Bavarians I think the issue is probably going to be the dye fading, either due to the dye used or the dying process itself. I've used Tamiya sky blue though I think any mid blue would be OK.
Quote from: Stewart.gibson on 10 February 2022, 08:10:43 PMI like your marker idea. Did you use regular rank and file figures?
Doesn't really matter, I use a mix. They appear as single figures tagging behind the unit. They just happen to wear red, yellow or green coats. :)
Quote from: Stewart.gibson on 10 February 2022, 08:10:43 PMAlso, did you create any skirmisher bases?
Yup. I'm based on 30x30mm, 9 figures (for Nobby's Napoleonic Rules), but light units are 30x10mm 3 figures. For light bttns I do keep some 30x20mm, 6 figure bases.
Quote from: Zippee on 10 February 2022, 08:29:29 PMOf course the extent examples of Bavarian uniform from this period aren't cornflower blue at all - rather more a dark blue, but not as dark as the French. But certainly not the pale sky cornflower we see so often, no matter how cool that looks
It looks cool on my table - so sue me! :P I wanted them to stand out from the Wurttembergers that I have painted and the Poles that are to come ... and the Prussians.
And if I ever get round to doing French.
Quote from: Stewart.gibson on 11 February 2022, 01:59:58 AMIf I was to list my priorities I come up with
1. That lighter blue is Bavarian, the mid Blue is French, Wurtemberg and the dark, almost black are Prussian so I might tell them apart on the table. Of course did the Prussians actually wear "Prussian Blue" pigmented uniforms? The French used "indigo" pigments iirc.
:-bd
Quote from: fsn on 11 February 2022, 07:34:04 AMthe Poles that are to come
I forgot the Poles! I think I need mores shades of blue. Orrrrrr. I need to start with a far lighter shade for the Bavarians :-\
Quote from: sultanbev on 10 February 2022, 06:26:24 PMRe fanions, do you mean the French ones
Mark
Missed this response. Question, colour of the Blue corduroy? Careful this is a loaded topic...
Yes I did mean French Fanions. If I understand correctly they were used as company identifiers, but I have no idea how they were used.
Stu
QuoteI'll go out on a limb (and behind a large rock) and suggest that the 2 colours are close enough to be the same on the table.
Not just on t'table: In the film "Waterloo" there is a scene where they can't make out if the new arrivals are French or Prussian. Presumably based on some memoir? I believe there were Napoleonic "friendly fire" incidents. Likewise the "who is it?" problem with D'Erlon at Ligny. So even the real generals needed flags and messengers etc especially once the smoke started. And how long would uniforms stay their original colour in the field?
Quote from: Stewart.gibson on 11 February 2022, 01:59:58 AMI found a can of worms in the pantry and decided they needed opening. Can we trust Flag colours? The few photos I have found of extant Bavarian colours tend towards the lighter blue. Are flag colours in any way related to uniform colours? Popularly produced war-games flags are quite varied.
Are the two colours related?
Im as interested as the next guy in uniform accuracy. I also lean towards the need to use brighter colours on smaller figures but where does one draw the line.
It seems clear that previous Bavarian uniforms were a paler blue (ignoring Rumford for a moment) and that seems true of later uniforms (from what I understand. For certain cornflower blue is the colour associated with Bavaria.
Cornflower blue has been the accepted 'correct' colour for so long that is absolutely an issue I leave to personal discretion, I'd never criticise the choice, especially in figures painted decades ago :D
Given that, I don't think we can really say with any certainty that flag colour and 'Bavarian national colour' and uniform colour need match or be one with each other. I'd veer to the flags being the traditional cornflower.
Quite why the uniform coats of 1800 and 1806 and 1814 appear to be a distinctly darker shade of blue than we would expect is a mystery but the ones in the museums certainty are. Maybe that's time and chemicals, maybe they misread the dye mixing instructions and stuck with it, no idea. I've seen nothing to indicate it was deliberate - every statement I've seen alludes to 'traditional Bavarian cornflower' - only it ain't.
QuoteAnd how long would uniforms stay their original colour in the field?
Even modern uniforms fade with field use. I believed the materials industry coined the term colour fast. Meaning looses its original colour fast. But please, my pedantry makes this challenging enough without needing 4-5 shades of "cornflower" blue. This years recruits in one shade and the old salts in progressively faded versions of the same shade. Hmmm...have we hit on a way to easily identify veteran and newly conscripted units on the table? :D
Add to list. Each nation comes with a shade chart to assist in identifying unit experience. That means that the Old Guard will have lighter uniforms than the Bavarians.
I'll get my hat...
QuoteSo even the real generals needed flags and messengers etc especially once the smoke started.
Agreed. There were enough instances of confusion that more daring commanders have been known to use that as a ruse to gain entry to fortresses etc. But we love the spectacle and pageantry of full strength units and pristine uniforms on our tables. The other thing is that painting the same shade of blue on hundred's of figures grows tiresome quickly.
[/quote]
Quote from: Zippee on 11 February 2022, 09:57:00 AMCornflower blue has been the accepted 'correct' colour for so long that is absolutely an issue I leave to personal discretion, I'd never criticise the choice, especially in figures painted decades ago (https://www.pendrakenforum.co.uk/Smileys/SoLoSMiLeYS1/cheesy.gif)
Ouch! I could say I have been thinking about the correct colour for Bavarians and made up my mind a couple of decades ago.
QuoteIm as interested as the next guy in uniform accuracy. I also lean towards the need to use brighter colours on smaller figures but where does one draw the line.
If I was to list my priorities I come up with
1. That lighter blue is Bavarian, the mid Blue is French, Wurtemberg and the dark, almost black are Prussian so I might tell them apart on the table. Of course did the Prussians actually wear "Prussian Blue" pigmented uniforms? The French used "indigo" pigments iirc.
2. Historical accuracy
3. How can we know 200 years later what is historically accurate?
I personally don't buy the need to paint smaller figures in brighter colours theory. In eras like the Napoleonic Wars, there's loads of other features that make the figures stand out (i.e., facings, breeches, plumes, etc.) and part of the fun for me is trying to replicate the real thing.
I painted my Bavarian contingent in light blue only to discover later that it was more of a mid-blue - someone, somewhere has sent many of us down the wrong path. When I started painting my French, I used Humbrol French Blue - again, wrong. As it turns out French uniforms were very dark (sure, the sun will fade this but not 'uniformly' so areas under armpits and knapsacks etc. will fade at a different rate). Apart from flags and the direction your troops are facing, your tabletop French will most likely have white breeches and your Prussians, grey (btw, I also paint the underneath of the bases a different colour for all of my figures, regardless of era, to help me quickly identify armies and individual units when storing them in the box after a game).
How can we know 200 years later what is historically accurate? One way for the French is to examine paintings painted by contemporary artists, i.e., guys who witnessed the real thing (and some of whom who actually served). Some will say that these paintings will have darkened over the years but many if not all have since been 'cleaned up' (i.e., restored). Here's a list of various artists' works to start your research off:-
Jacques-Louis David, Auguste Couder, F. Bouchot, Emile Jean Horacle Vernet, Antoine-Jean Gros, Jean-Baptiste Debret, etc.
Napoleon in his Study (https://artsandculture.google.com/asset/the-emperor-napoleon-in-his-study-at-the-tuileries/zQEbF0AA9NhCXQ?hl=en-GB)
Various French Napoleonic Artists (https://prof-pirola.medium.com/napoleon-a-biography-through-the-propaganda-paintings-cf144af9860f)
There's also Francois Gerard and Claude Gautherot.
Quote from: Stewart.gibson on 11 February 2022, 10:06:55 AMOuch! I could say I have been thinking about the correct colour for Bavarians and made up my mind a couple of decades ago.
No 'ouch' intended - this really is one of those instances where personal preference can have free rein as far as I'm concerned
Quote from: Zippee on 11 February 2022, 10:43:46 AMNo 'ouch' intended - this really is one of those instances where personal preference can have free rein as far as I'm concerned
Understood, when it comes to uniform colours this is all tongue in cheek anyways. We are painting toy soldiers after all and we could paint the figures any colour we like and create an imagination. My 18th century imagination is located in a southern French wine region. They use bad table wines as a source of dyes for their uniforms.
QuoteI personally don't buy the need to paint smaller figures in brighter colours theory. In eras like the Napoleonic Wars, there's loads of other features that make the figures stand out (i.e., facings, breeches, plumes, etc.) and part of the fun for me is trying to replicate the real thing.
A warm hello to a fellow Scot.
I struggle with painting and confess that, for me, getting figures on the table is my only goal. Your suggestion of examining period art is a good one, I had not thought of it. The research you do is really challenging. Not much attention is paid to uniform details.
Modern writers have worked to create a body of knowledge to support miniatures gamers. I have MAA 106, Bavarians from Osprey. Written by Otto von Pivka, I have yet to find any reference to a jacket colour in his uniform descriptions. Breeches, facings, helmets, company designations, button colours, lace, all there. Nothing on jacket colours. There are 4 photos of tunics, all black and white images.
There are also many period uniform plates but I find them overpriced and difficult to obtain. But then again, as uniforms are not a key interest beyond the perfunctory I really don't spend much time looking. Unfortunately, as I am finding out, the sources that are readily available often contain easily verifiable errors.
I equate your focus on unis with my desire to understand and replicate combat and maneuver on the battlefield. In reality I am striving to find a better model of what transpired daily on the battlefields of Europe. I need all the help I can get with uniforms...
Re French fanions, I was thinking of the battalion flags used by the 2nd-5th battalions of a regiment, not the company ones, can't help you with that one.
For my 1812 French I used the following battalion flags:
1st Bttn: eagle with national flag
2nd Bttn: white flag
3rd Bttn: red flag
4th Bttn: blue flag
5th Bttn: green flag
6th Bttn: yellow flag
Halberd pennants were:
1st Bttn: blue-red-blue horizontal
2nd Bttn: red-blue-red horizontal
3rd Bttn: red-blue-red-blue-red horizontal
4th Bttn: red/blue vertical
5th & 6th Bttns: ?
That aside all my Prussians, Brits in blue, French, Persians, whatever, in any scale, are all done in Miniature Paints MP23 Royal Blue. I don't bother with such pedantery for differing shade of blue colours. 200 years after the event, how can we really know?
I always say my soldiers are painted to win battles, not painting competitions. None of my customers have ever complained. Get 'em painted, get 'em based, get them on the table rolling dice from massed volleys shredding your opponents. Job done :)
Here is the French 56th Regiment for June 1812 at 1:10 and guns 1:2 (haven't done the flags yet and battaion gun limber)
(https://i.postimg.cc/Gts2vSYr/10mm-56th-Reg-1812-2.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/ct00ShX5)
Have never painted Bavarians but if I did I'd use a home brew mid-blue I made to make US 1812 backpacks.
Mark
Quote from: sultanbev on 11 February 2022, 01:49:42 PMFor my 1812 French I used the following battalion flags:
1st Bttn: eagle with national flag
2nd Bttn: white flag
3rd Bttn: red flag
4th Bttn: blue flag
5th Bttn: green flag
6th Bttn: yellow flag
OK, Thanks for the info. The reason I asked about company fanions is because I had understood, wrongly?, that battalions all carried colours. 2nd, 3rd etc having returned their eagles in 1808??? but they still carried colours with the battalion embroidered on the flag.
When did that change?
Stu
I may be wrong but I think the company [peleton?] fanions are just visual aids to assist with rapid deployment. Nothing more. A signpost for the line to form on, could be a subaltern with a partisan or corporal with a rag tied to his ramrod . . .
Quote from: Zippee on 12 February 2022, 08:59:51 AMI may be wrong but I think the company [peleton?] fanions are just visual aids to assist with rapid deployment. Nothing more. A signpost for the line to form on, could be a subaltern with a partisan or corporal with a rag tied to his ramrod . . .
That makes perfect sense. Trying to find your company(peloton) on a chaotic battlefield would be a challenge. Doctrine would help as companies formed in a specific order so if you have found the white flag then the green flag should be somewhere to the right. Having gone looking for a specific platoon with a battalion forming on the parade square, I understand the issue. Fortunately, the promenading officers were not shooting at us :D
This is one of the dynamics of the battlefield that I find intriguing. Not interested in wheeling, marching, the intricacies of forming square from line, or column etc. How did units reform after a failed attack, where did that happen? How did troops know where to reform. 600 guys retiring from a position, under fire, hoping that enemy cavalry does not find them, have loads on their minds. Yet histroies are replete with units retiring and reforming to defend or to renew the attack. Yes, officers utilized the flat of sword method, sergeants just provided a stern look punctuated by epithets. But units responded. :( More research...
Not sure about reforming units (although in our rules it happens quite a lot), but I did read that Wellington insisted that there should be a 300yds zone behind a battalion in line, so this must give some idea of either how far an enemy "breakthrough" would be expected to before running out of impeteous, or how much space a unit usually retires from combat before it is able to rally. Or perhaps, the distance that a second line has time to open ranks to let the routing/falling back battalion through and redress the line to meet the enemy breakthrough with a crushing initial volley.
(300yds = 15" in my rules, which is kind of handy, as a light cavalry breakthrough move is 12", so it makes sense even though we didn't write our rules with that in mind, the info came afterwards).
Mark
Quote from: sultanbev on 13 February 2022, 10:16:42 AMNot sure about reforming units (although in our rules it happens quite a lot), but I did read that Wellington insisted that there should be a 300yds zone behind a battalion in line, so this must give some idea of either how far an enemy "breakthrough"
(300yds = 15" in my rules, which is kind of handy, as a light cavalry breakthrough move is 12", so it makes sense even though we didn't write our rules with that in mind, the info came afterwards).
Mark
In my reading or 18th century rules I have seen that commanders were concerned about support distance between lines. That distance increased as mobility and weapons ranges improved, so Wellington's 300 yards is would seem about right for the period. Also, I would imagine that 300 yeads in Western Europe likely provided for some form of cover. Good thought babout opening the lines to let fugitives through. Several rule sets allow retiring units falling back to rally behind supports, but obviously those supports provide a perceived measure of safety.
Stu
Have a read of this:
Supports and Passage of lines (https://rodwargaming.wordpress.com/miltary-historical-research/military-historical-research/passage-of-lines/)
There is some reference to the intricacies of forming lines but it helps explain why troops were drawn up as they were and how they were drawn up. Most games ignore/subsume these niceties into general rules.
I'm sure the evolutions were seldom if ever as precise as described in a manual, but the idea must have informed, at least to some extent, what happened to try and impose a semblance of order on the chaos of action.
Quote from: Gwydion on 13 February 2022, 02:03:37 PMMost games ignore/subsume these niceties into general rules.
Interesting. We allow passage of lines with a 3" deduction of movement, 6" for cavalry. (line speeds being 9" and 24" respectively). So as long as everyone is in the open and in order, it is maneagable, as long as you have space on the other side of the unit being passed through. BUT, if one unit is disordered, or the units are in rough terrain and not trained skirmishers, or one is green, then both units become disordered.
Our rules are based on the 2nd edition Regimental F&F converted to use for Napoleonics and colonial, with 1:20 figure ratio.
Quote from: Gwydion on 13 February 2022, 02:03:37 PMI'm sure the evolutions were seldom if ever as precise as described in a manual, but the idea must have informed, at least to some extent, what happened to try and impose a semblance of order on the chaos of action.
Im reminded of my own evolutions on the drill square. I understand it is not the same thing but the principle is the same. Bodies of troops are being moved to preform specific tasks in specific places using a preordained set of commands. Add enemy fire, units of differing sizes, officers guesstimating when and when to halt their piece of the puzzle and, in all likely hood an incomplete understanding of what the puzzle looks like.
That can result in total chaos on a parade square. I know frustrated RSM's have been known on more than one occasion to pass the order "Get the F@&#k! off of MY parade square". I'm sure there are French/Russiaan/Prussian/Austrian napoleonic equivalents.
Now corners will be cut, troops will be pleasantly encouraged by their NCO's to move a bit more quickly enroute to over there by Captain so and so. If they are any good they will find their companies and dress their ranks as professional soldiers. Otherwise they could take a good deal of time to sort themselves out.
Most rules do not consider supports and combat results do not provide enough pushback/repulse results and then do not require fresh units to come forward to continue the attack or protect those falling back.
Stu
Stewart, you asked about the use of fanions by the French infantry and when they were introduced. The number of eagles was reduced to one per regiment by the Decree of December 1811. Article 9 stated that the eagle was to be carried by the 1st Battalion with the remaining battalions having fanions "without inscription and to which no importance will be attached, nor any honors rendered". Article 10 described the fanions as white for the 2nd battalion, red for the 3rd, blue for the 4th, green for the 5th and yellow for the 6th battalion. They were carried on a plain staff with a spear point finial.
You also asked about the Bavarian army uniform and colours. I don't know where 'cornflower blue' comes from because all my German sources talk about 'hellblau', or light-blue which, judging from artefacts in the Bavarian Army Museum, Ingolstadt, is actually closer to a mid-blue, like Vallejo Medium Blue 70-963. Light-blue and white are the national colours of Bavaria.
The Bavarian Army 1806-1813 by Peter Bunde, Markus Gaertner and Markus Stein, published by Zeughausverlag GmbH, Berlin, 2018 is worth a look. It has a comprehensive text and is illustrated with photos and images of various artefacts and uniforms. The authors know their stuff and it is about the best there is for the money. The English translation can be had for about £25 from the usual outlets.
Cantler's 'Der Bayerische Armee 1800 -1873' is also useful in this context. Here is a link to it.
https://www.napoleon-series.org/military-info/organization/Bavaria/Cantler/c_cantler.html
Hekkel's 'Trophies of the Wars of 1812-1813-1814 kept in the Kazan Cathedral' cover all the trophies taken by the Russians, including Bavarian ones, that were displayed in the Cathedral of Our Lady of Kazan in St Petersberg, in 1909. Most have long since disappeared but they were illustrated in colour in Hekkel's work. The Bavarian infantry colours are at pages 165-173. This is the link to it.
Трофеи войн 1812-1813-1814 г., хранящиеся в Казанском соборе / - Геккель, Александр Иванович (1845-1908) - Cистема онлайн-просмотра (rusneb.ru)
Staffs appear to be plain wood which is how Rigondaud shows them in his Le Plumet Serie D plates on colours and standards, albeit influenced at least in part by Hekkel, and how Bunde et al describe them.
QuoteStewart, you asked about the use of fanions by the French infantry and when they were introduced. The number of eagles was reduced to one per regiment by the Decree of December 1811. Article 9 stated that the eagle was to be carried by the 1st Battalion with the remaining battalions having fanions "without inscription and to which no importance will be attached, nor any honors rendered". Article 10 described the fanions as white for the 2nd battalion, red for the 3rd, blue for the 4th, green for the 5th and yellow for the 6th battalion.
QuoteThe Bavarian Army 1806-1813
John and others thanks for the information. I have been led astray by the easily accessible sources like Osprey. That said, why has their been such a debate about the issue? I am able to find a copy of Bunde at Amazon with little difficulty. Nor is it a challenge to find the correct????? paint
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51880288446_94f42edbb9_n.jpg)[/url]Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/2n3u3gQ) by Stu Gibson (https://www.flickr.com/photos/194939020@N05/), on Flickr[/img]
I will still err to the lighter side because there are far too many blue troops on the battlefield, my tired old eyes need all the help they can get...
The fanion information will be of use for my Perry Waterloo French figures. I drew the short straw and ended up with Prussians and a small force of French, well because, everyone has to paint French!
Speaking of the Bunde book, Amazon.ca is bundling both the Bavarian and Saxon books. As I will also be painting 1809 Saxons is that book worth the expenditure?
Stu
Quote from: Stewart.gibson on 13 February 2022, 11:59:23 PMSpeaking of the Bunde book, Amazon.ca is bundling both the Bavarian and Saxon books. As I will also be painting 1809 Saxons is that book worth the expenditure?
It is a very good study, but of the army from 1810. So not so much if your interest is 1809 specifically.
HI. Have ordered both as I am looking forward to the Peninsular war release. I will be building elements of Rouyer's Division,
1st Brigade. -- General SCHWARZ (French).
1st Regiment of Nassau (no. 3 of the Confederation of the Rhine), Colonel von POLLNITZ.
4th Regiment of the Rhine (Saxon Duchies), Colonel von EGLOFFSTEIN.
2nd Brigade. -- Colonel von CHAMBAUD (of Anhalt).
5th regiment of the Rhine (Anhalt-Lippe), Colonel von CHAMBAUD.
6th Regiment of the Rhine (Schwarzburg-Waldeck-Reuss), Colonel von HEERINGEN.
Like I said I'll do anything to avoid Painting French figures dark blue. Those figures will be painted. RED as. 2nd, 3rd and 4th Swiss
Stu